Alamein extension

 
  tramperson Station Staff

I know there have already been proposals and recently the PTUA have suggested constructing a Chadstone rail link that would extend from the existing Alamein line, along with a tram line through Malvern. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this, seeming that the Alamein line is under-patronised and Chadstone is expanding. I believe the Alamein line should be extended via an underground tunnel and a station placed underneath Chadstone shopping center. The train would be terminated at Chadstone. Camberwell Station should be redeveloped also and an extra platform added.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/warning-of-need-for-trains-trams-to-chadstone-20111223-1p8oz.html



Sponsored advertisement

  handyandy Junior Train Controller

I know there have already been proposals and recently the PTUA have suggested constructing a Chadstone rail link that would extend from the existing Alamein line, along with a tram line through Malvern. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this, seeming that the Alamein line is under-patronised and Chadstone is expanding. I believe the Alamein line should be extended via an underground tunnel and a station placed underneath Chadstone shopping center. The train would be terminated at Chadstone. Camberwell Station should be redeveloped also and an extra platform added.
"tramperson"


Why terminate and Chaddy when Oakleigh is less tham a kilometre away? There are already plans for redevelopment of Camberwell station......
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I know there have already been proposals and recently the PTUA have suggested constructing a Chadstone rail link that would extend from the existing Alamein line, along with a tram line through Malvern. I would be interested in other peoples opinions on this, seeming that the Alamein line is under-patronised and Chadstone is expanding. I believe the Alamein line should be extended via an underground tunnel and a station placed underneath Chadstone shopping center. The train would be terminated at Chadstone. Camberwell Station should be redeveloped also and an extra platform added.
"tramperson"

Firstly, the word is spelt centre, NOT center. This is one thing that I do pick people up on, we are in Australia, not America.

Secondly, where would the money come from to pay for tunneling under Gardiners Creek, and extending the Alamein line to Chadstone? There are more important transport issues to fund that some PTUA pipe dream-if they so want it, they can pay for it. It is a nice idea, but not important, and will be very expensive.
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
I think if it's ever done, it should be done before or alongside Rowville. One solution to the capacity problem.

Of course, it's not going to be done in my lifetime.
  tramperson Station Staff

They already have bus services between Chadstone and Oakleigh. It would not need to extend to Oakleigh, Plus if they also extend the Tram it is less needed. The train line would mainly just connect Southern Cross Station with Chadstone.

Thankyou for correcting my spelling. They could place a levy on car parking to fund the project. Considering they are proposing another 500 million dollar upgrade, it is bad planning not to connect it with the train system.
  LamontCranston Chief Commissioner

Redevelop Camberwell: renovate it certainly, its crumbling like everything else, but otherwise leave it alone. Now the railway up and down from it on the other hand can certainly be covered and developed.
Well handyany if its going to Oakleigh why not also extend it north to Fairfield...
xxxxbear: Chadstone shopping centre would likely pay for any tunnel. Expect the station to be another Box Hill/Melbourne Central labyrinth designed to maximize the captive audience of the traveling public.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Here are just some projects that are of a higher priority:


Regional Rail Link Electrification and Duplication to Melton or Bacchus Marsh

Removal of some 200 level crossings in the metroplitan area

Metro tunnel (Eddington's transport plan)

Doncaster Railway Line

Melbourne Airport Railway Line

Rowville Railway Line

Quadruplication of the line to Dandenong

Duplication of the majority of single track sections (including Belgrave, Lilydale, Cranbourne, Upfield and Altona)

New rollingstock to replace Comeng trains

New rollingstock for Intercity services


When all of the above have got funding allocated and construction has at least began, than the DOT might start to think of adding extra infrastructure to the inner east. Oh and by the way, that just includes Heavy rail, the DOT who would be paying for this, also are responsible for trams, roads anf freeways.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Extending the Alamein line to Chadstone would be a rather expensive idea. A far cheaper option would be to put the rails back onto the missing link in the Outer Circle via Hughesdale . A line linking Camberwell and Oakleigh would be far more useful than one terminating at Chadstone. with a rebuilt Outer Circle having a new Chadstone station located on Dandenong road, there a tram extension from Caulfield could take people right to the Shopping centre. Other tram and bus links could also be improved so that Chadstone Shopping centre could be served by links from the 4 or 5 railway stations around it.

This new rail link could also act as as a feeder line to a Rowville line, such Melbourne improvements are only about 40-50 years too late.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I think if it's ever done, it should be done before or alongside Rowville. One solution to the capacity problem. Of course, it's not going to be done in my lifetime.
"alstom_888m"


Any Rowville line should become an extention of the Alamein line with and the Interchange station of Oakleigh Included.

I just can't see how the proposed Rowville line can splice Into the busy Dandenong line at Oakleigh / Huntingdale.

One Idea Is the proposed Domain - Caulfield subterranean railway should go to Chadstone and splice Into a line from Alamein to Oakleigh (there would be a double track exit at Oakleigh where the trains from Domain / CBD can run onto Dandenong and beyond)
They could go to Rowville to also, also with an underground triangle at Chadstone a train service could run between Caulfield and Camberwell


  LamontCranston Chief Commissioner

I'd put triplication to Ringwood on that list Gman, a lot of people are on that train these days and express services during peak times would be a big benefit.
Nightfire: the 1969 Melbourne Transportation Plan had the Rowville line branching from Huntingdale so there we go.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Nightfire: the 1969 Melbourne Transportation Plan had the Rowville line branching from Huntingdale so there we go.
"LamontCranston"

They were just lines on a map, there are a heck of a lot more rail services between Huntingdale and the City now then what there was back In 1969 (no room for them today)
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
I'd put triplication to Ringwood on that list Gman, a lot of people are on that train these days and express services during peak times would be a big benefit.
Nightfire: the 1969 Melbourne Transportation Plan had the Rowville line branching from Huntingdale so there we go.
"LamontCranston"


You're more than likely right, not to mention other things I haven't thought of. The point is, there is plenty of stuff that is needed urgently, we have a snowlakes chance in hell of the DOT finding the funding to revive a failed railway from 100 years ago.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Nightfire: the 1969 Melbourne Transportation Plan had the Rowville line branching from Huntingdale so there we go.
"LamontCranston"

They were just lines on a map, there are a heck of a lot more rail services between Huntingdale and the City now then what there was back In 1969 (no room for them today)
"Nightfire"


Plenty of room for 3 tracks on most of the Dandenong line, maybe 4 in some places. 
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

Plenty of room for 3 tracks on most of the Dandenong line, maybe 4 in some places. 
"Rodo"


2 tracks or 4 tracks, 3 Is difficult to work the counter balance of trains.

My point Is there Is I can't see there being any track capacity for Rowville trains on the Dandenong line until some major re-routing of trains services happen (Pakenham trains via Domain etc)
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Gandel doesn't want it.  As long as he's against the proposal, none of the other problems really matter.
  Speed Minister for Railways

Gandel doesn't own Chadstone Shopping Centre any longer so is unlikely to have an opinion on transport.

where would the money come from to pay for tunneling under Gardiners Creek, and extending the Alamein line to Chadstone?
"XXXXL Bear"

You could always climb over Ryburn Avenue and go over the golf course at sufficient height not to get hit by golf balls. This option would mean that you would have to follow a route via East Malvern Station rather than Holmesglen.

I'm not sure that a shopping centre alone would be grounds for such a heavy rail extension. If there were more urban consolidation along that corridor, it might warrant heavy rail.

Yes, I do think that the services from Gippsland/ Pakenham/Dandenong could easily fill four tracks if you quadruplicated to Dandenong. There is plenty of reason for people to go in both directions and more and more new housing down from Dandenong.
  ppiglet Chief Train Controller

There is no way any large shopping centre will want a train line (or tram) within less than 2km of them.


Just look at how Watergardens has degenerated with all the mall rats trained into the centre every 20mins.


It would be the quickest way to torpedoing of the $500m expansion of Chaddy - if the government forces a train on them. 

These shopping centres are planned and designed on attracting the paying middle class (who are the ones with cars), hence they purposefully make them car dependant to maintain the gentrification atmosphere.

Sorry, but unless the government forces it on Chaddy, they aint going to spend a cent on a train line, and it certainly won't happen.
       
  tom9876543 Train Controller

My opinion is........

Chadstone Shopping Centre should be forced to pay for the building of the train line between Alamein and Hughesdale with a train station at Dandenong Rd.
In compensation, the government will hand over for free a significant piece of land between Chadstone Rd and the new train line. Basically the shopping centre will be able to expand.... towards the new train line.


  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Gandel doesn't own Chadstone Shopping Centre any longer so is unlikely to have an opinion on transport.
"Speed"


Sure you're not thinking of Northland?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gandel still owns 50% of Chadstone.

Either way, the issues regarding shopping centres and fixed-rail transport links are a bit more complicated than just "we don't want trash here".  

None of the people who build shopping centres really want public transport anywhere near them (see Lowy's adventures in London for details), not even the relatively low-rent ones.

It's almost as if large sums of money were trading hands between shopping centre magnates and the likes of GM/Halliburton etc to keep us in the car/oil trap.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
where would the money come from to pay for tunneling under Gardiners Creek, and extending the Alamein line to Chadstone?
"XXXXL Bear"
You could always climb over Ryburn Avenue and go over the golf course at sufficient height not to get hit by golf balls. This option would mean that you would have to follow a route via East Malvern Station rather than Holmesglen. I'm not sure that a shopping centre alone would be grounds for such a heavy rail extension. If there were more urban consolidation along that corridor, it might warrant heavy rail. Yes, I do think that the services from Gippsland/ Pakenham/Dandenong could easily fill four tracks if you quadruplicated to Dandenong. There is plenty of reason for people to go in both directions and more and more new housing down from Dandenong.
"Speed"
Oh dear, wouldn't there be such an outcry from the good members of Malvern Valley Golf Course! (of which I was a member for a couple of years quite awhile ago now)
  Victoria-Bitter Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
There is no way any large shopping centre will want a train line (or tram) within less than 2km of them.


Just look at how Watergardens has degenerated with all the mall rats trained into the centre every 20mins.
"ppiglet"

List of CityRail stations in Greater Sydney that service major shopping centres:

Burwood Station - Westfield Burwood
Parramatta Station - Westfield Parramatta
Blacktown Station - Westpoint Blacktown
Penrith Station - Westfield Penrith
Liverpool Station - Westfield  Liverpool
Macarthur Station - Macarthur Square
Hurstville Station - Westfield Hurstville
Miranda Station - Westfield Miranda
Macquarie University Station - Macquarie Centre
Chatswood Station - Chatswood Chase, Mandarin Centre & Westfield Chatswood
Bondi Junction Station - Westfield Bondi Junction
Bankstown Station - Centro Bankstown
Tuggerah Station - Westfield Tuggerah
Wollongong Station - Wollongong Central
Hornsby Station - Westfield Hornsby

Yeah they must be having so much chaos up there.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I believe that at the time of Chaddy's last extension they managed to get requirements for provision of a railway link removed from the extension proposal.  Which means that provision could have been provided, but wasn't due to the management of Chaddy objecting.  

But it just goes to show that one of the great drawbacks of the centre is the lack of good transport access.  Buses are all very well and good, but they are subject to the same traffic conditions as cars, and limited within the centre to one, possibly two places to pick up/drop off passengers.  I can't count how many times I have been on the 900 bus travelling between Caulfield and Monash where after having a dream run between Caulfield and Chadstone SC, then get stuck on the great Warrigal Rd traffic jam - in all sorts of hours!

There is opportunity to link up various modes of transport within this area of Melbourne.  The train stations themselves are trip generators as well as activity centres such as Chadstone and Holmesglen TAFE.  The ideas that have been kicking around in my head are:

Train:
- extend the Alamein line to Oakleigh via East Malvern & Chadstone underground and have trains running shuttles between Camberwell and Oakleigh.
- grade separate crossings on the Glen Waverly line at High St, Burke Rd, Tooronga Rd, Toorak Rd & Glenferrie Rd
- re-develop East Malvern station into a transport hub to cater for trains, trams & buses.
- re-develop Holmesglen station into a transport hub to cater for trains, trams and buses

Tram:
- extend Route 3 to East Malvern station with provision to follow the Glen Waverly line to Holmesglen TAFE terminating at Warrigal Rd at Holmesglen Station.
- extend Route 5 to Darling station then proceeding further east along Malvern/Waverly Rds to Chadstone Rd and turning south to Chadstone SC
- extend Route 6 to east along High Street to Warrigal Rd at Ashwood.
- extend Route 72 east along Malvern Rd and joining Route 5, proceed to Chadstone SC
- new Route 73 that would use a new Burke Rd extension from Gardiner to Caulfield stations - (Cotham Rd to Caulfield (at present)).

Buses:
- divert Route 612 into the new transit area at East Malvern station providing an interchange with trains and trams.
- close down the Darling deviation of Route 624 and have it run via Neerim Rd all the time.
- (obvious) provide more traffic priority to buses along busy major roads.

Pipe-dream, yes. Expensive, yes. Do-able, definitely.  I firmly believe that providing lots of smaller links and improvements will enhance the whole area, not just linking with Chadstone SC.  On a further practicality, I also believe that Victrack probably still owns the old railway easement between Alamein and Gardiners Creek as there are railway stanchions carrying power cables that link the overheads at Alamein with the railway substation at East Malvern.  This could be a factor in any future building of railways in this area.  
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gandel still owns 50% of Chadstone...
"Adogs"

You are correct. It's 50/50 Gandel and CFS, but CFS is the Centre manager. The state paying up to $400 million for a dedicated line to service a shopping centre would be a world first. Then again, apparently we are going to pay roughly the same amount to service an airport which has five in bound flights a day, on the basis that the line would be easy to build.
  Pcoder Station Staff

One of the forgotten advantages of the Alamein line extension is that it would greatly aid the removal of level crossings on the Dandenong and Glen Waverley lines.
 
On the Dandenong line, 4 of the 11 level crossing on the line are in between Caulfield and Oakleigh. There was a recent newspaper article that said because of the closeness of some stations in this area it would be quite difficult to do the separations one by one. My point is if they still had trains going though this corridor during the construction, it would most likely cause more disruption and cost a great deal more. So if the Alamein line extension did exist it would allow Dandenong line trains to temporarily divert through Alamein allowing the track from Caulfield to Oakleigh to be completely rebuilt without the added difficulty of trains still travelling though the corridor.

On the Glen Waverley line all of the level crossings are on the city side of Darling station. What I would do is temporarily close all of the Glen Waveley line between Burnley and Darling (with bus replacements for those stations). Run a shuttle between Darling and Glen Waverley station with city passengers changing at the interchange station (East Malvern or Holmesglen). This project would not be done at the same time as the Dandenong line diversion.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Pcoder, I think that you are getting into a state of foaming overexcitement about grade separation.

Others also seem full of grandiose plans and are trying to convince everybody else of their brilliance in thinking of them. The obvious is just to simply build a railway along where it once existed, single track would do across the long viaduct over Gardiners Creek and the freeway and perhaps a little further. The overhead stanchions towards Alamein might even take a double catenary ,  all a very simple business to extend to Hughesdale with an extra track on to Oakleigh.

Tram and bus improvements could easily be part of all this and the problem of trains bringing in scrotes cannot be all that bad because Chadstone is already within 2km. of quite a few stations. Even the worst scrotes do go shopping sometimes.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: Boss, jdekorte, Nightfire, wurx, xxxxlbear

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.