What next for the Queensland market?

 
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it

What next for Queensland modellers?

A little essay, with thoughts welcome.

We now have the following models available RTR (plastic mass produced):

Wuiske QLX louvre vans & variants

Southern Rail VAK coal hoppers & variants

Southern Rail VGK wheat hoppers & variants

Wuiske QSC, QSCW and QLCP Tautliner vans (3 colour schemes)

Announced

Southern Rail 2300 class in QR bronco, QRN Eagle & QRN ‘Meadow Lea’ colours.

Southern Rail 2000 class railmotors

Possibilities?

The SRM 2300 class provides them with a chassis suitable for a myriad of other classes, obviously enabling them to make versions of the 1550, 2400 2450 and 2470 classes that were converted to 2300’s. It is also the same chassis for the 2100 series locomotives, most of which began confined to coal workings initially, but most ended up on the main lines.  The Clyde-GM GL22 & GL26 types combined add up to a total of over 200 locomotives.  Clearly SRM could be busy for some time, if they wanted to be, producing versions of these locos.  For each class, there are/were variations in terms of DOO conversion, air conditioning and fitting of ‘Maxi-cabs’, as well as the change from QR blue to bronco colours.  So out of those 209 locos, each has been in at least two and often three different incarnations.  So which should be produced?  Clearly they can’t do them all.

This may depend greatly on the existing market demand, but it would seem obvious that those versions that were the most travelled would be the ideal models, therefore the 1550 class and following 2400 series should fit the bill.  If there is further demand then perhaps some of the 2100 series could be produced.

More Locos?

Given that we are talking about a fresh new baby-faced market here, what other locos might be produced?

A number of factors will have to be considered by the small group of producers here.  Obviously the first one is broad appeal -has the type travelled outside of QLD?  Only a certain few have, but there are some interesting possibilities, although again we are talking about breaking into a new market.

The Travellers


2800 class (50 built) - quite a good looking option for producers since some of these locomotives have recently been converted to standard gauge and are now operating in NSW.  Of course one was converted some time ago (2819), and operated as a banker in the Adelaide Hills, plus other wanderings around the interstate network for some while.  2819 is now in WA, back on cape gauge and would match SRM’s DFZ class.  Obviously the fact that it is a large class and has travelled over most of the QR network, also makes it a good prospect.


1460 class (42) - a well-travelled and large class, of which several have ended up in Tasmania, via NZ.  Some of these locos were converted to DQ class and three remained in almost original condition, with few modifications other than paint.  Only the DQ class remain, all quite different looking than how they started.  The large number in the class plus the chassis commonality with the following 1502 class ensures that this is a good possibility for the QR producers, rather than the locos later careers.


1502 (29) - along with their long history of service the 29 members of the 1502 class are also a good possible model because of the 423 conversions which may be quite popular, although some big tooling differences exist between even amongst the 423 class.  At least a couple are also in WA as the AD class, painted in ARG yellow & maroon, another prototype to match the DFZ.  Some are still in Tasmania too, again as DQ class.  There are also four still in NZ.


4000 class (at least 165 built or under construction!) - Whilst only appealing to modern image modellers, the 4000 class and it’s derivatives, the 41, ACN, 83 & PN classes are extremely numerous.  Several have, or are being shipped to WA (ACN).


2350/70 class (16) - Ran in QLD from the early 70’s until 1987 when sold to Tasrail.  Some have since been sold to WA where they are still running.  A handful still survive in Tasmania.  The problem with this class is that they were largely confined to coal train running, so may not have broad appeal for QR modellers.  The interstate market may be only mildly interested too -only WA modern image fans would be interested in those versions, and Tasmania’s market is also (obviously) very small.


1300 class (45) - These are similar to the 2350 class in that many were confined to coal workings.  However none have travelled anywhere other than Tasmania, except those that were rebuilt as MKA class, of which most of them are now also back in Tasmania.

The Locals

None of the other QR diesel locos have travelled interstate in any form.  However this of course does not mean that they won’t be a suitable model in a market where there are 4.5 million people.


1720 class (56 built) - surely a suitable model with many still running around today.  Their versatility and range of use means that any QR modeller must want at least a couple for their collection.  The less numerous 1700 class (only 12 built) could be plonked on to the same chassis.


1620 class (34) - not for nothing was Queensland Scale Models planning to produce this loco in brass. The longest lived EE type in Queensland, again with a range that means that many might want one or two.


DH class (73) - another type with a broad range across QLD, although with little appeal for modern image modellers.  Unfortunately other than size & some basic dimensions, there are almost no similarities between this type and the related Walkers built diesel hydraulics, namely the NSWGR 73 class and the Emu Bay Railway 11 & 10 classes.


3900 class electric (30) - for about ten years these locos dominated Brisbane – Rockhampton traffic before increasing coal traffic meant they were needed elsewhere.  All other electric loco types have remained captive to heavy coal traffic, with diesels sadly running under the wires on the mainline since, with the sole exception of passenger trains.

1270 class (30) - wide range but all withdrawn in late 80’s.


The Uncommon

Most other classes that ran in QLD were either small in number or ran over only a small part of the network, or both.  A few of them may still be worthwhile candidates for an RTR model, but probably not before the above loco types.


2600 class (13 built) - all now in South Africa. Is anyone modelling Hon3.5 over there?


1450 class (10) - none survived beyond 1990


1400 class (13) - body is very similar to VR T class (series 1), but many differences below running plate. Also didn’t survive past 1990.


1600 class (18 ) - wide range & many survived past 1990, but all gone by 1995.


1250 class (17) - the 3rd QR diesel class fully withdrawn, in 1987.


1200 class (10) - wide ranging, withdrawn by 1987.


1170 class (12) - used on light lines only. Withdrawn by 1990.


1150 class (13) - the first QR diesel class, all gone by 1987.

Other electric locos

The market for QR electric locos is obviously smaller than the overall QR market.  They are also not so uncommon, of course, but are confined to coal traffic.  The market being in its infancy, any of these electric locos would seem to be a high risk proposition for a producer.  However if the coal hoppers from SRM are popular, perhaps not such a risk after all?  So who knows.

Other wagons?

Not being an expert on QR wagons I can’t even begin to guess what is either a suitable or a likely model.  One suspects that the current two producers of QR RTR might well plan on creating some variations for modellers, therefore some open wagons, container and cattle wagons might well be a good plan.  I'm also given to understand that although their brass model projects have been cancelled, Queensland Scale Models are planning to produce some rollingstock (their website even has a link, as yet unconnected, to a page for these planned models).
Incidentally SDS has previously announced a range of QR RACE containers, and may well be interested in producing some wagons.

Where from here?


If you are interested in more, I strongly recommend that you email all of the above-mentioned companies (Wuiske, Southern Rail, SDS & QSM) and tell them what you want.  It might even be worth an email to Auscision, who claimed in an update a little while ago that they were 'slowly getting around to all Australian states'.  Whether this has significance or not, I'm not sure, but I do know one thing; if you don't ask, you're very unlikely to get!

Regards all,


Toby

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  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
The Travellers
2800 class (50 built) – quite a good looking option for producers since some of these locomotives have recently been converted to standard gauge and are now operating in NSW. Of course one was converted some time ago (2819), and operated as a banker in the Adelaide Hills, plus other wanderings around the interstate network for some while. 2819 is now in WA, back on cape gauge and would match SRM's DFZ class. Obviously the fact that it is a large class and has travelled over most of the QR network, also makes it a good prospect.

 

"DQ2004"


2821, 2819 and 2815 (?) are in Victoria at the moment running AM/MA services(possibly MP/PM too) and shunting.
  br30453 Chief Train Controller


What next for Queensland modellers?


1400 class (13) – body is very similar to VR T class (series 1), but many differences below running plate. Also didn't survive past 1990.

Toby

"DQ2004"


Toby,

The 1400 class is the same below running plate as the G12 supplied by Clyde for the KCR in Hong Kong.

Some of these are now back in Australia as the TL class, so having a wider marketing value. 

The 1400 would appeal to many QR modellers as it is a loco that has "cult" following.
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it


1400 class (13) – body is very similar to VR T class (series 1), but many differences below running plate. Also didn't survive past 1990.

Toby

"DQ2004"


Toby,

The 1400 class is the same below running plate as the G12 supplied by Clyde for the KCR in Hong Kong.

Some of these are now back in Australia as the TL class, so having a wider marketing value.

The 1400 would appeal to many QR modellers as it is a loco that has "cult" following.
"br30453"


Um, I hate to say this, but the TL is a Bo-Bo and the 1400 is an A-1-A - A-1-A loco.  The difference in chassis makes it a less likely proposition for a producer who's thinking about the TL (which seems a very unlikely prospect for a model). The steps and running gear may otherwise be similar, I honestly don't know.

I honestly hadn't heard of the 'cult' following, so I couldn't say how wide range it's appeal may be, although personally, it's pretty low on my wishlist.  If it was produced RTR I would buy one, however.

Regards,
Toby

  appleby Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Tweed - In Canberra.
The Travellers

The 2800 and the 4000 class don't interest me at all out of these (in that even if it was produced, I most likely wouldn't purchase them).

The Locals

Out of that group, only the two branchline types, the 1620 and 1720 appeal to me.

The Uncommon

Of most interest to me would be the 1600 and the 1270 classes, followed by the 1400 and 1450.

Possibilities?

Although its not my era of choice, I'll probably still end up getting one of the 2300's - but hopefully if they backdate or do different classes as you mentioned, then yeah I would put them on the wish list, but any of the above would be a preferential choice - either in kit or RtR as the low nose clydes aren't really my thing.

Other wagons?

Pretty much anything would be kosher for me as long as its not purely post 1990. I would really like to see some passenger rollingstock (such as sunshine express, evans and SX carriages) or guards vans come out (such as the BBV).

That being said, if those were available as kits, I would probably still buy them anyway. Laughing
  QR-INTERAIL Deputy Commissioner

Location: Where else, but Queensland


Nice thread you've started there Toby, it's definitely interesting times ahead for the Queensland modeller.

Well I thought I'd add my comments in response to your post. I have no industry knowledge, so these comments are purely just my thoughts as a modeller and as a customer.


The Travellers

Yes, one would assume the 2800 Class would, or should be successful. For Queensland service, three liveries, QR Corporate, QR National "Eagle" and QRN "Meadow Lea". Two versions, as delivered, and now modified with the chop top roof.

For "broad gauge" service, three liveries, QR National "eagle", QRN "Meadow Lea" and ARG.

Now, this is a question to southern modellers of the contemporary era. How many southerners would purchase a 2800 for their layouts? 

Re the 423 Class. Obviously derived from the 1502 Class. So with clever tooling design, one could make all versions with "relatively" minor tooling change outs. For the 423, two liveries, Interail & QR National "eagle", to cabs, left & right hand drive. For the 1502, two liveries, QR Blue & White & Broncos. Not to mention the WA ARG pair. 

Question - Considering the popularity of S Scale in WA, is there a market for WA HOn3.5 models?

The Locals

Obviously the benefit of the QR "90 Tonners" there are a lot of common parts between classes. I assume that SR or any other manufacture would/have developed some clever tooling to ensure that other models can be produced with the addition of additional tooling.  



The Uncommon

I can be corrected if I'm wrong here. But isn't the 1502 chassis the same as the 1460 and 1270. Again reuse of tooling for another class. Dollar savings for the manufacture. 

Other wagons?

I reckon BAZY, BEZY, BECY wagons. Can be modified for QR National QQAY wagons.

I would assume the Lander cars would be successful. Same ends and roofs. Again, clever underframe design can be used for the differences between each class.

I would love to see an SX Set!

Anyway, just my thoughts, all I can say it's good times ahead!8)

  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it


Nice thread you've started there Toby, it's definitely interesting times ahead for the Queensland modeller.

Re the 423 Class. Obviously derived from the 1502 Class. So with clever tooling design, one could make all versions with "relatively" minor tooling change outs. For the 423, two liveries, Interail & QR National "eagle", to cabs, left & right hand drive. For the 1502, two liveries, QR Blue & White & Broncos. Not to mention the WA ARG pair.
"QR-INTERAIL"


Thank you!

The problem with the 423 is that not only are there two versions (LH & RH sided cabs) but also they have different bogies to the 1502 class from which they were rebuilt.  So they are a fair bit of extra tooling for some not so common locomotives, even though you could design that tooling with that in mind.  I expect that the design of such tooling might even cost more, as you would need more separate parts (ie. separate cab, hood sections).  Certainly not beyond the realms of possibility though, although I personally doubt that the 423s are really that much in demand.

Question - Considering the popularity of S Scale in WA, is there a market for WA HOn3.5 models?
"QR-INTERAIL"


I honestly don't know what chance the market in WA has, after all the DFZ's are only being done because they are so similar to the 2300's they are converted from.  The possible market is also much smaller (2.3 million vs 4.5 million) but then again we're talking about a market that hasn't been given a chance until now.  Time will tell, I guess.

Obviously the benefit of the QR "90 Tonners" there are a lot of common parts between classes. I assume that SR or any other manufacture would/have developed some clever tooling to ensure that other models can be produced with the addition of additional tooling.
"QR-INTERAIL"


SRM have indicated to me that they are 'onto it' in regards to that commonality -one of the reasons they picked the 2300's, in fact.  Watch this space, I guess!


I can be corrected if I'm wrong here. But isn't the 1502 chassis the same as the 1460 and 1270. Again reuse of tooling for another class. Dollar savings for the manufacture.

No. The 1460 & 1502 are the same chassis, as I mentioned.  The 1270 is an EE design, but unfortunately is not at all the same as the otherwise similar sized 1300.

Anyway, just my thoughts, all I can say it's good times ahead!8) 

Amen to that.  So far I've only been able to afford one pack of QLX vans, and four packs of VGK hoppers, plus the 2300 bronco twin pack on order.  I now have a list of wanted rollingstock (all now released) that at the start of this year I didn't even know would become available!
And if that Wuiske clan releases anything else without warning I may go into some sort of tachycardic arrythmia!

Cheers,
Toby

  QR-INTERAIL Deputy Commissioner

Location: Where else, but Queensland


The problem with the 423 is that not only are there two versions (LH & RH sided cabs) but also they have different bogies to the 1502 class from which they were rebuilt. So they are a fair bit of extra tooling for some not so common locomotives, even though you could design that tooling with that in mind. I expect that the design of such tooling might even cost more, as you would need more separate parts (ie. separate cab, hood sections). Certainly not beyond the realms of possibility though, although I personally doubt that the 423s are really that much in demand.
"DQ2004"

Yeah, forgot about the wider bogies. Maybe if a manufacture was keen on the 423 Class, they could hit up TrainOrama to "lease" their 49 Class bogie tooling! 

Just re the tooling side of the house, I think the majority of models a design with a one piece hood, then a separate cab that clips over the hood. So, relatively simple conversion. The big question though is exactly how much another tool would cost for the different cab.

You're right though, the addition cost just might not be worth the outlay of the extra folding ones. I suppose though, dividing the cost of the whole project over all the models, it might not be too bad.



  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it

2821, 2819 and 2815 (?) are in Victoria at the moment running AM/MA services(possibly MP/PM too) and shunting.
"speedemon08"


Correction there, it is 2809 that has been shifted to the standard gauge recently (as well as the other two) and is in NSW.  It may be in Victoria as you say too, I don't know.
2819 is still in WA back on narrow gauge and is operating as PA 2819.
So whilst it is not many, there are at least a few versions there for a producer to market if they are thinking of doing the 2800.


Regards,
Toby

  Draffa Chief Commissioner

I'd probably take one of each. Smile
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
Aside from the previously announced models, Southern Rail's latest announcement mentions two more QR projects that they are hoping to release next year.
I have absolutely no idea what they are (I wish I did).  The 2000 class railmotors are scheduled to arrive in 2014 (!).  They are still hoping for the 2300's to be released at the Ipswich exhibition.

Regards all,

Toby
  appleby Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Tweed - In Canberra.

Aside from the previously announced models, Southern Rail's latest announcement mentions two more QR projects that they are hoping to release next year.
I have absolutely no idea what they are (I wish I did). The 2000 class railmotors are scheduled to arrive in 2014 (!). They are still hoping for the 2300's to be released at the Ipswich exhibition.

Regards all,

Toby

"DQ2004"

All looking good for the QR modeller. Smile
  Naz Train Controller

My guess is, is that we might see some PYCs, BAZYs, and some more rollingstock similar to the QLX (ALYs/COs etc) or with a QLX under frame such as the KOJX. I reckon the 1460/1502 or the 2800 will be the next loco to be produced.
  appleby Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Tweed - In Canberra.
My guess is, is that we might see some PYCs, BAZYs, and some more rollingstock similar to the QLX (ALYs/COs etc) or with a QLX under frame such as the KOJX. I reckon the 1460/1502 or the 2800 will be the next loco to be produced.
"Naz"

Trouble with the CO was that there was only a maximum of 50 in traffic throughout their lives. A relatively large homogenous class would be a better prospect like the ALYs (500 in '82) and FJS (4,000 in '82), H (about 600) or the HJS (around 600).
  Naz Train Controller

My guess is, is that we might see some PYCs, BAZYs, and some more rollingstock similar to the QLX (ALYs/COs etc) or with a QLX under frame such as the KOJX. I reckon the 1460/1502 or the 2800 will be the next loco to be produced.
"Naz"

Trouble with the CO was that there was only a maximum of 50 in traffic throughout their lives. A relatively large homogenous class would be a better prospect like the ALYs (500 in '82) and FJS (4,000 in '82), H (about 600) or the HJS (around 600).
"appleby"



Despite being only few, the CO and also the CLO were quite frequent on the NCL. Almost every train had them especially the QRX trains. I am 'guessing' that any new releases will be modern or which ran over many years.
  appleby Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Tweed - In Canberra.
My guess is, is that we might see some PYCs, BAZYs, and some more rollingstock similar to the QLX (ALYs/COs etc) or with a QLX under frame such as the KOJX. I reckon the 1460/1502 or the 2800 will be the next loco to be produced.
"Naz"

Trouble with the CO was that there was only a maximum of 50 in traffic throughout their lives. A relatively large homogenous class would be a better prospect like the ALYs (500 in '82) and FJS (4,000 in '82), H (about 600) or the HJS (around 600).
"appleby"



Despite being only few, the CO and also the CLO were quite frequent on the NCL. Almost every train had them especially the QRX trains. I am 'guessing' that any new releases will be modern or which ran over many years.
"Naz"

Don't get me wrong, if someone released the CO's, I would purchase them. But I would be more likely to purchase more of say the HJS or FJS.
  Naz Train Controller

Totally agree, no matter what it is I'll be buying it!
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it

As most who are interested in this thread would have probably seen, Southern Rail announced more QR wagons the other week;
http://www.southernrailmodels.com.au/article/26th-27th-australia-day-weekend-news-release


The releases are to be ALY 4-wheel louvre vans and ex-NSW NTAF tank wagons.
The question has been asked when did the OLO (ex-NTAF) tank wagons arrive in Queensland - does anyone know?

So that makes the list look like this:

Announced:
SRM 2300 class (& DFZ class)
SRM 2000 class railmotors
SRM ALY 4 wheel vans
SRM OLO tank wagons

Released:
Wuiske QLX vans
Wuiske Tautliner vans
SRM VAK hoppers
SRM VGK hoppers

In his latest 'corner' Adam Wuiske very unhelpfully hinted at more 'big things' happening at Wuiske in 2013.  So more excitement (& pressure on the credit card) to come!

Regards,

Toby

  br30453 Chief Train Controller




As most who are interested in this thread would have probably seen, Southern Rail announced more QR wagons the other week;
http://www.southernrailmodels.com.au/article/26th-27th-australia-day-weekend-news-release


The releases are to be ALY 4-wheel louvre vans and ex-NSW NTAF tank wagons.
The question has been asked when did the OLO (ex-NTAF) tank wagons arrive in Queensland - does anyone know?

"DQ2004"


Quote:

The OLOs entered service on the QR network between 11/91 and 9/92. There were 3 different manufactures in the class, Goodwin, Comeng, and Tulloch.

All were sold to QR 8/96 along with some Caltex OTO’s of which some were previously OPO’s from Golden Fleece. The Caltex RTC’s were reclassed to OLO’s, I think the “L” is for leased???? All use leased by QR, mostly to Shell.

Some are still in use on the Mt Isa line today.

PM me for photo.

  Naz Train Controller

I think the 4000, 4100, PN, 83, ACNs and the new GWA versions would be a big hit! If someone does them i think they'll make a bit of money from them. Hopefully we will see them soon the way things are going for QLD. But it would be good to see some vintage locos come through.
  br30453 Chief Train Controller


All these new ready to run models are great, but there is a problem.

There is a difference in coupling heights.

One importer's models are at the correct height.

The couplers on the other's models are at standard gauge height, thus making the models too high.

Has anyone else noticed this.

  appleby Deputy Commissioner

Location: South of the Tweed - In Canberra.



All these new ready to run models are great, but there is a problem.

There is a difference in coupling heights.

One importer's models are at the correct height.

The couplers on the other's models are at standard gauge height, thus making the models too high.

Has anyone else noticed this.

"br30453"

Maybe if you sighted a specific example...

  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba



All these new ready to run models are great, but there is a problem.

There is a difference in coupling heights.

One importer's models are at the correct height.

The couplers on the other's models are at standard gauge height, thus making the models too high.

Has anyone else noticed this.

"br30453"


I would like a bit of clarification on this also, I do have QR models and really would like to know where/if there are standards for the HO scale, 3'6" gauge models.

Having some Tillig (I think) and Peco 12mm track/points, I notice quite a bit of inconsistency in there gauging.

So! what is the correct coupler height and what is the correct gauge and relevant wheel standards/recommendations.

Setting up a Wuiske Promotions A10 has been an interesting task given the need for these answers.

  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner






All these new ready to run models are great, but there is a problem.

There is a difference in coupling heights.

One importer's models are at the correct height.

The couplers on the other's models are at standard gauge height, thus making the models too high.

Has anyone else noticed this.

"br30453"


I would like a bit of clarification on this also, I do have QR models and really would like to know where/if there are standards for the HO scale, 3'6" gauge models.

Having some Tillig (I think) and Peco 12mm track/points, I notice quite a bit of inconsistency in there gauging.

So! what is the correct coupler height and what is the correct gauge and relevant wheel standards/recommendations.

Setting up a Wuiske Promotions A10 has been an interesting task given the need for these answers.

"Teditor"


The correct wheel and track standard can be found in the AMRA wheel and track standard, gauge name TT.  See how it compares with the track you have. Also have a look at the MOROP NEM 310 as the track is probably based on the European standards. Wheels to the AMRA standard are compatible with MOROP NEM 310.

Unfortunately I have not finished a new coupler height standard for AMRA, and no other overseas standard is close to the Australian prototype coupler height. The standard I will propose will use a height within the prototype variation. For 1:87 scale I would suggest a nominal coupler centre height of 8.7mm for QR narrow gauge.

Terry Flynn

AMRA standards http://www.amra.asn.au/standards.htm

  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba

Terry,

Thank you for the reference, using TT scale/gauge seems reasonably logical for the wheel/track dimensions, the correct coupler height (as defined by the post from br30453) still leaves the statement unanswered, by what standard is the assumption made, and which one/s is/are deemed correct and/or too high by br30453?

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