Syria, its about to get messy

 
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
So you have changed your viewpoint then? You don't require any proof of the use of Sarin on the Syrian civilians?

You are just opposed to doing anything about it?

Sponsored advertisement

  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

So you have changed your viewpoint then? You don't require any proof of the use of Sarin on the Syrian civilians?

You are just opposed to doing anything about it?

I'm opposed to the bombing of Syria by the US etc even if 400-1,500 people have been killed by chemical weapons out of a total body count of about 80,000-110,000 from the civil war.

I'm reluctant to take the side of loosely associated, devious rebels infiltrated by terrorists, who have been filmed cutting out the hearts of dead soldiers and eating them.

It's not at all clear to me that the "Syrian People" want the US to start dropping bombs on them, indeed their protests suggest otherwise.

My opposition does not mean that I support the use of chemical weapons, but assuming Assad did use them, I fail to see how such an act constitutes the crossing of a line in the sand when so many thousands of deaths had already occurred through small arms fire, artillery and other conventional means, as if death by conventional weapons is any better.

That's more or less my position at this point in time.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Let's get this over with, Assad used his chemical weapons on his own people, if he didn't he failed to ensure their security for use by others (exceedingly unlikely). Get a B2 a couple of JSOWs and go and ring his doorbell with one, and stick the other through the back door. Chemical weapons use is not to be tolerated on civilians. Send the message and it won't happen again.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I'm opposed to the bombing of Syria by the US etc even if 400-1,500 people have been killed by chemical weapons out of a total body count of about 80,000-110,000 from the civil war. I'm reluctant to take the side of loosely associated, devious rebels infiltrated by terrorists, who have been filmed cutting out the hearts of dead soldiers and eating them. It's not at all clear to me that the "Syrian People" want the US to start dropping bombs on them, indeed their protests suggest otherwise. My opposition does not mean that I support the use of chemical weapons, but assuming Assad did use them, I fail to see how such an act constitutes the crossing of a line in the sand when so many thousands of deaths had already occurred through small arms fire, artillery and other conventional means, as if death by conventional weapons is any better. That's more or less my position at this point in time.
HeadShunt
OK, so we are probably not too far apart in our views on this.

However, and I thought Obama summed this up pretty well in his speech, small arms, artillery and other weapons are pretty much targeted, whereas gas is not, it kills indiscriminately and in masse. As Obama said, once someone crosses the line and uses gas, they are likely to do it again and you don't know who will be next.
So if the whole thing is about oil/gas, then how does the US benefit from this proposed action? He has said there is no intention to put American boots on the dirt in Syria, so it is pretty hard to gain control of the oil without doing so. And you don't just go in there and steal it, the most you can hope for is that your own oil companies get to control the oil.

And who do you get control from? I very much doubt any deal has been done with the rebels, as they are neither able to to guarantee control nor likely to be trusted anyway.

And if it was the main issue, then you can bet the US oil companies would have instructed their lobbyists to 'suggest' to their pet congressmen that they should vote along with Obama for direct military action.
  sar602 Chief Train Controller

Location: Nomadic truckie
WTF is with everyone jumping on the "lets bomb Syria" band wagon their is NO proof that the Syrian Gov has used chems only the usual BS excuse story from the US and Co even if they have certainly it is justifiable considering the nation is been over run by foreign backed savages that....

- Suicide bombed mosques with religious scholars and worshipers inside
- Forced POWs to become suicide bombers
- Put swords in the hands of children and instructed them to behead people
- Sawed the heads off priests
- Impaled the head of an imam on a mosque's minaret
- Kidnapped and executed journalists, blown up television stations
- Kidnapped UN peacekeepers on three separate occasions
- Issued a fatwa calling for the justified rape of Syrian women and children as young as 14
- Whipped people on the streets and filmed it
- Bulldozed a 2,000 year old shrine to Abraham to dust and beheaded statues of Christ (in Ma'loula)
- Entered a village and exterminated over 40 Shia men, women, and children in an act of genocide while declaring on video an intention to cleanse Shia after calling for "an open bloody sectarian war to the end"
- Mutilated dead soldiers and cannibalized their heart and liver
- Executed POWs after torture on repeated and numerous occasions
- Shot a child in the face in a public execution for using Muhammad's name incorrectly
- Set off car bombs in areas packed with civilians, notably in Christian and Druze neighborhoods in Homs
- Grabbed five villagers in Ma'loula and forced them to convert to Islam or face beheading
- Called for the extermination of Alawites and Shia, and encouraged children to sing songs on video about the genocide of religious minorities
- Dismembered an Alawite child alive with a frame saw, filmed it and tortured and slaughtered civilians by the dozens in a similar manner in al-Khratta
- Shot unarmed Palestinian protesters who were against them dead
- Looted the country's artifacts and the thousands of years of human history found in its museums, disassembling its industry and sending it over the Turkish border, and taking money and aid from the same Gulf elements who are buying Syrian children for sex (rape) and forced marriage in refugee camps  

Yeah bunch of peace loving secular democrats don't you think? give me the Bashar any day.
I also don't get how the Zionists bomb and Chem the Palestinians basically EVERY DAY and no one seems to gives a Fig.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
WTF is with everyone jumping on the "lets bomb Syria" band wagon their is NO proof that the Syrian Gov has used chems only the usual BS excuse story from the US and Co even if they have certainly it is justifiable considering the nation is been over run by foreign backed savages that....

- Suicide bombed mosques with religious scholars and worshipers inside
- Forced POWs to become suicide bombers
- Put swords in the hands of children and instructed them to behead people
- Sawed the heads off priests
- Impaled the head of an imam on a mosque's minaret
- Kidnapped and executed journalists, blown up television stations
- Kidnapped UN peacekeepers on three separate occasions
- Issued a fatwa calling for the justified rape of Syrian women and children as young as 14
- Whipped people on the streets and filmed it
- Bulldozed a 2,000 year old shrine to Abraham to dust and beheaded statues of Christ (in Ma'loula)
- Entered a village and exterminated over 40 Shia men, women, and children in an act of genocide while declaring on video an intention to cleanse Shia after calling for "an open bloody sectarian war to the end"
- Mutilated dead soldiers and cannibalized their heart and liver
- Executed POWs after torture on repeated and numerous occasions
- Shot a child in the face in a public execution for using Muhammad's name incorrectly
- Set off car bombs in areas packed with civilians, notably in Christian and Druze neighborhoods in Homs
- Grabbed five villagers in Ma'loula and forced them to convert to Islam or face beheading
- Called for the extermination of Alawites and Shia, and encouraged children to sing songs on video about the genocide of religious minorities
- Dismembered an Alawite child alive with a frame saw, filmed it and tortured and slaughtered civilians by the dozens in a similar manner in al-Khratta
- Shot unarmed Palestinian protesters who were against them dead
- Looted the country's artifacts and the thousands of years of human history found in its museums, disassembling its industry and sending it over the Turkish border, and taking money and aid from the same Gulf elements who are buying Syrian children for sex (rape) and forced marriage in refugee camps  

Yeah bunch of peace loving secular democrats don't you think? give me the Bashar any day.
I also don't get how the Zionists bomb and Chem the Palestinians basically EVERY DAY and no one seems to gives a Fig.
"sar602"
You've got proof of all those things I gather? Mind posting it? The rest of the world would be keen to see it.

We are also interested in your exact definition of 'basically EVERY DAY', 'basically' in your context must surely mean 'not'.

As for Assad not using chemical weapons, what reason would you give for the hundreds of civilian bodies found without a single inflicted mark on them? Maybe they'd just all been on the Coolaid? My Iraqi friend lived in Syria for a while, she says that Assad made Saddam look like a saint, no mean feat given how secular Saddam was.

Want the Bashar? I am sure we could take up a collection and buy you a ticket over there, but I suspect you will decline the offer.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

OK, so we are probably not too far apart in our views on this.

However, and I thought Obama summed this up pretty well in his speech, small arms, artillery and other weapons are pretty much targeted, whereas gas is not, it kills indiscriminately and in masse. As Obama said, once someone crosses the line and uses gas, they are likely to do it again and you don't know who will be next.

I can understand the general distinction made between conventional and chemical weapons, in the sense that one is more "targeted" whereas the other is more of an "area" weapon very likely to kill civilians, but I think the significance of that distinction is lessened in a civil war like Syria where there have been many civilian casualties by conventional weapons already (many more than by chemical weapons, as far as I can tell), as there usually are in civil wars.

That doesn't make it all right to use chemical weapons but it makes the "line" Obama referred to less obvious to me as a justification for direct intervention. Additionally, machine guns and artillery are for "area" targets rather than "point" targets, meaning they are not necessarily aimed directly at enemy soldiers, and when they are fired into residential areas there is a good chance that civilians or their homes will be caught in the crossfire, which they have been. There is also a very good chance that conventional weapons have been used "negligently", if not deliberately aimed at unarmed civilians, by both sides of the conflict for various reasons, and it has been reported that many "civilian" deaths are actually rebels, who are more or less civilians/militia anyway, including child soldiers. On top of that we have reports of rebels killing each other.

I wonder how Obama would be responding to a Syrian use of radioactive ammunition, a la Fallujah, Iraq, where American forces filled the city with not only depleted but also enriched uranium, resulting in widespread illness among Iraqi civilians and American troops, horrific birth defects and probably an increase in cancer in the long run. The human cost of civil war is huge, whether it is by conventional, chemical or air to surface weapons, and the hypocrisy on the part of the US Executive is ever-present.

So if the whole thing is about oil/gas, then how does the US benefit from this proposed action? He has said there is no intention to put American boots on the dirt in Syria, so it is pretty hard to gain control of the oil without doing so. And you don't just go in there and steal it, the most you can hope for is that your own oil companies get to control the oil.

And who do you get control from? I very much doubt any deal has been done with the rebels, as they are neither able to to guarantee control nor likely to be trusted anyway.

And if it was the main issue, then you can bet the US oil companies would have instructed their lobbyists to 'suggest' to their pet congressmen that they should vote along with Obama for direct military action.

These are valid questions. On that subject, I have only passed on the media articles referring to the proposed natural gas pipelines. I don't believe there was any mention of direct US involvement in the Qatar-Turkey gas pipeline, but what was pointed out was the fact that the countries involved were all US allies with the exception of Syria, and that they just happen to be the same countries that have been assisting the Syrian rebels.

Perhaps we will see which of the two major pipeline proposals, if any, goes ahead in the coming years. Assuming reports of the proposals are accurate, it doesn't take a stretch of the imagination to see that the outcome of the present conflict could have some influence on which pipeline is built.

New York Times: Survey Reveals Scant Backing for Syria Strike
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/world/middleeast/poll-majority-of-americans-oppose-military-strike.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0

Of those surveyed by NYT/CBS, 75% believed that Assad "probably did" use chemical weapons, yet despite this, 61% were still opposed to airstrikes, 74% were opposed to supporting Syrian rebels and 86% were opposed to sending US soldiers in. That's a small sample of the population.

NYT: Obama easing off on push for airstrikes
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/14/world/middleeast/us-wont-insist-un-resolution-threaten-force-on-syria-officials-say.html?ref=world

NYT: A Plea for Caution from Russia by Vladimir Putin
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/opinion/putin-plea-for-caution-from-russia-on-syria.html?pagewanted=all&src=ISMR_AP_LO_MST_FB

What a crazy world we are living in when Russia sounds more sane and responsible than our own government on a serious international crisis. It's as if I have blundered into some bizarre parallel universe, wrote one reader apparently from California.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Well, it is official now, the UN have evidence that Assad used chemical weapons.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Well, it is official now, the UN have evidence that Assad used chemical weapons.
TheBlacksmith

I think it might still be a bit too early to say. A number of articles have been published on this subject, and while the headlines are big, some of them have already been changed in the last 24 hours, the newer versions more carefully worded, because there are a few things we need to remember:

  • the UN report has yet to be released,
  • it was intended to determine IF chemical weapons were used, not by whom
  • at least one item of new evidence against Assad seems more circumstantial than conclusive, i.e. the discovery of spent cartridges of a type used by the Syrian Army at the location of the chemical weapons attack gave rise to the conclusion that chemical weapons were fired from an area occupied or controlled by Assad's forces; if the contents of the report are used to resume the push for airstrikes, I hope they are a little more solid than that.

"Assad has committed many crimes against humanity," said Ban Ki-moon, Secretary-General of the United Nations. No doubt more detail on the nature of those crimes will arrive over the next week or so, and if there is substance to what Ki-moon said, presumably there would be grounds for some sort of proceedings against Assad.

The Australian: UN has evidence on Assad for attack

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/13/un-confirms-syria-chemical-weapons_n_3921424.html

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/un-report-to-confirm-chemical-use-but-wont-point-finger-at-assad/2013/09/12/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/13/playing-with-us-assad-piles-on-demands-amid-chemical-weapons-talks/#

ABC (Australia): UN report will show chemical weapons were used (But by Assad? It doesn't say)

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-14/un-report-will-confirm-that-chemical-weapons-were-used-ban-says/4957880

If the report does suggest it was Assad, this will no doubt be seized upon as an "I told you so" moment by the likes of Obama, but I still see his drawing of a line in the sand at the use of chemical weapons as an arbitrary measure to garner support for an attack - that line could have been drawn anywhere and, accompanied by a propaganda programme with similar humanitarian arguments, a push for attacks could have been made. Countries supporting the rebels could just as easily have drawn a line in the sand at their atrocities (heart-eating, suicide bombing, child soldiers, beheading etc), yet they chose not to, probably because it does not suit their agenda. When the UN suggested that the rebels probably used chemical weapons earlier this year (RT) (BBC), that didn't cross a line in the sand, either.

When Obama says that a particular event crossed a line, that's his line - it doesn't have to be everyone else's.

This is what the "good guys" are up to:

The prosecutor in the Turkish city of Adana has issued a 132-page indictment, alleging that six men of the al-Qaeda-linked al-Nusra Front and Ahrar ash-Sham tried to seek out chemicals with the intent to produce the nerve agent, sarin gas.
RT News


http://rt.com/news/turkey-syria-chemical-weapons-850/


The Australian:
Aussie in Syrian suicide attack as fears mount over terror training

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/aussie-in-syrian-suicide-attack-as-fears-mount-over-terror-training/story-fn59nm2j-1226718080864


Al-Qaeda declares war against other Syrian rebel groups
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/09/13/323763/alqaeda-declares-war-on-syria-militants/
What the hell is going on here?

On an almost amusing note, one comment refers to the terrorist group as "Al-CIA-da"...
  sar602 Chief Train Controller

Location: Nomadic truckie
Have you heard about the video of the Syrian rebels dismembering little girls with frame-saws while they are still alive?
or cutting out and eating human organs I would post that stuff here, but I think it would unfortunately be taken down because it is not supported by the current Railpage rule set try live leak or YouTube instead.
But hey, don't mind me, you lot need to get on with kickstarting world war three, don't you? Ultimately, the battle against white liberals, J*ws and Islam will be settled through combat, at this stage there's no real point in talking about anything. I somehow don't think the missus will approve of me signing up for the SAA you recon I could get you to deliver my sawn off head to her when im gone? But hey this isn't a one sided game im sure the Salafi boys in the FSA would love another retard to drive a truck loaded with explosives into a church or something.....
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Have you heard about the video of the Syrian rebels dismembering little girls with frame-saws while they are still alive?
or cutting out and eating human organs I would post that stuff here, but I think it would unfortunately be taken down because it is not supported by the current Railpage rule set try live leak or YouTube instead.
sar602

Catholic priest beheaded as crowd cheers
http://www.ijreview.com/2013/09/77292-graphic-catholic-priest-beheaded-al-qaeda-affiliated-nusrah-front-crowd-cheers/

Are these the people who will fill the vacuum left by Assad and his army if he is removed from power?
  sar602 Chief Train Controller

Location: Nomadic truckie
http://rt.com/news/chemical-weapons-rebels-captives-632/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10311007/Syria-nearly-half-rebel-fighters-are-jihadists-or-hardline-Islamists-says-IHS-Janes-report.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31c_1379248389



Behold the defenseless jihadists otherwise known as Assad's "own people". These guys were behind the attack which culminated in the suicide bombings that led to the fall of Menagh air base in Aleppo Governate.
Hopefully a couple Chechens, Somalis, Afghans, and Libyans won't step on the toes of anyone's narrative.
What a lie and a farce this entire war has been from day one.

Sponsored advertisement

Subscribers: CraigW, RTT_Rules, sar602

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.