Syria, its about to get messy

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If 70,000 dead wasn't enough to drag foreign powers in, use of Chemical Weapons maybe the trigger


http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-23/israel-says-syria-used-chemical-arms2c-probably-nerve-gas/4647226

Israel's top military intelligence analyst says Syrian government forces have used chemical weapons, probably nerve gas, in their fight against rebels waging a two-year-old uprising. Brigadier-General Itai Brun told a security conference that photos of victims showing foam coming out of their mouths and contracted pupils were signs deadly gas had been used. "To the best of our understanding, there was use of lethal chemical weapons," he said in remarks broadcast on Army Radio.
"Which chemical weapons? Probably Sarin."

In a transcript of the speech provided by the Israeli military, he said forces loyal to Syrian president Bashar al-Assad were behind the attacks on "armed (rebels) on a number of occasions in the past few months". The Syrian government and rebels last month accused each other of launching a chemical attack near the northern city of Aleppo. US defence secretary Chuck Hagel, who is visiting Israel, has said American intelligence agencies were still assessing whether chemical weapons may have been used in Syria's civil war. "We, the United States, along with Israel have options for all contingencies and certainly the Syrian government's use of chemical weapons would be a game changer in crossing that red line," he said.

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  Carnot Minister for Railways

It's already messy...

These stories slipped under the radar recently (thankfully the archbishops have been released) -
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/23/us-syria-crisis-bishops-idUSBRE93M0UO20130423

http://theconversation.com/australians-fighting-in-syria-what-is-the-threat-at-home-13492

The really interesting aspect is that many Sunni fundamentalists are very angry (and vocally too) with the current Saudi government and senior clerics for not getting directly militarily involved in Syria.  In reality the Saudi Govt doesn't want to pick a fight right now with Iran, China and Russia, but they do ultimately want to see their brand of theocratic Wahhabi Islam established in Syria....
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

If 70,000 dead wasn't enough to drag foreign powers in, use of Chemical Weapons maybe the trigger
RTT_Rules
Drag foreign powers in?

Who do you think is supporting the so-called "Free" Syrian Army and hosting the Syrian National Council?

Foreign powers have been involved in this from the beginning.

Syria is just another country being taught the ultimate lesson for not following orders from Washington.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It's already messy...

These stories slipped under the radar recently (thankfully the archbishops have been released) -
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/23/us-syria-crisis-bishops-idUSBRE93M0UO20130423

http://theconversation.com/australians-fighting-in-syria-what-is-the-threat-at-home-13492

The really interesting aspect is that many Sunni fundamentalists are very angry (and vocally too) with the current Saudi government and senior clerics for not getting directly militarily involved in Syria.  In reality the Saudi Govt doesn't want to pick a fight right now with Iran, China and Russia, but they do ultimately want to see their brand of theocratic Wahhabi Islam established in Syria....
Carnot
Yes 2 years of civil war is messy, however chemical warfare will bring in foreign powers directly. The UN will not stand for this and China and Russia won't be able to justify their pathetic spinless stance anyfurther.

Saudi govt has banned its people fighting in Syria, so many are indeed pissed. Previously they go away to fight and come back and want to raise a gun over everything little thing. Meanwhile the give them arms, money and other sorts of aid.

Few in Saudi want their version of Islam expanded, most of them including the King and Royal family want out of what they have to put up with. Probably is King is supported by Cleric's so small steps. Things are changing there, but slowly and rapid change could have its own issues, read Syria.

The depressing part is that while the President is/was a dictator and has been known to have his own human rights issues, especially now. The country was before the war incredibly safe for locals with improving living standards and safe for vistors  and there was religious harmony with numerous religions and branches of Islam operating freely and happily. The country and its people have been destroyed and won't this is over will probably take decades to recover.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Drag foreign powers in?

Who do you think is supporting the so-called "Free" Syrian Army and hosting the Syrian National Council?

Foreign powers have been involved in this from the beginning.

Syria is just another country being taught the ultimate lesson for not following orders from Washington.
HeadShunt
Agree, I meant an invasion force. Why a no-fly zone couldn't have been imposed long ago!!!
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Agree, I meant an invasion force. Why a no-fly zone couldn't have been imposed long ago!!!
RTT_Rules
Presumably there will be no illegal invasion until the loosely bound, undisciplined puppet army has proven itself incapable of accomplishing its mission or stopped doing what it is told; there's probably a good chance of both things happening. Until then, the "foreign powers" will keep the resources flowing to the FSA, sit back and watch as the Syrians kill each other and destroy the country.

There have also been reports that the Syrian rebels, Free Syrian Army - call them what you will, have been experimenting with and planning to use chemical weapons.

http://shoebat.com/2013/03/25/alarming-footage-syrian-rebels-used-chemical-weapons/

http://www.infowars.com/shock-video-shows-syrian-rebels-testing-chemical-weapons/

http://www.infowars.com/syrian-rebels-caught-on-tape-discussing-chemical-weapons-attack/

http://www.rt.com/news/syria-fsa-chemical-weapons-229/

Naturally these reports which appeared after a simple Google search all came from non mainstream media outlets. You won't hear it on CNN or BBC.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Presumably there will be no illegal invasion until the loosely bound, undisciplined puppet army has proven itself incapable of accomplishing its mission or stopped doing what it is told; there's probably a good chance of both things happening. Until then, the "foreign powers" will keep the resources flowing to the FSA, sit back and watch as the Syrians kill each other and destroy the country.

There have also been reports that the Syrian rebels, Free Syrian Army - call them what you will, have been experimenting with and planning to use chemical weapons.

http://shoebat.com/2013/03/25/alarming-footage-syrian-rebels-used-chemical-weapons/

http://www.infowars.com/shock-video-shows-syrian-rebels-testing-chemical-weapons/

http://www.infowars.com/syrian-rebels-caught-on-tape-discussing-chemical-weapons-attack/

http://www.rt.com/news/syria-fsa-chemical-weapons-229/
HeadShunt
There is no excuse for them rebels following the same path as the govt army in this way. I sort of understand why, but still they should not. They are fighting for the freedom of the Syrian people, including the Govt army personal who probably would like to defect but cannot for fear of their families being excuted as has happened to others.

Honestly if they get caught using gas, external support should cease. Hopefully the Allies supporting them have made this clear and that its a few extremists or rogue militia who got their hands on some govt supplies or home made stuff.
  Speed Minister for Railways

It's interesting that the US Government is denying that they have evidence of chemical weapons being used but an Israeli is saying that they are. The opinions expressed are by a senior Israeli public servant rather than being official government statements. Like Saudi Arabia with Iran, Israel may be concerned with Syria  maintaining some stability and with overly aggressive leaders being reined in.

From Israel's point of view, Assad was a decent leader for a neighbouring country. He was cooperative and didn't wage war or war-rhetoric. If Assad felt weakened, he might, like some other middle-eastern leaders, try firing missiles at Israel to try to gain popularity. Those seeking to overthrow are not agents of a western government but some will be affilliated with terrorist or organisations. If an organisation like Hamas or Al Qaeda got power in Syria, Israel would have a problem. The current leadership of Egypt would concern Israel after decades of stability with Mubarak in power.

I read these words today written by a Rebecca Barber, a policy adviser for Save the Children.
It's a reflection of emerging international consensus among members of the Security Council, including previous blockers, that it cannot stand silently by and watch the carnage because of lack of agreement on the politics. And in its call for the Syrian authorities to allow humanitarian access to all parts of Syria, it might go some way towards enabling more aid to trickle through to those in need.
...
Earlier this year one Syrian woman said: "People are dying and there is slaughter and the world is just watching. There is no help from outside. They keep holding meetings and that's it."

Well, last week the world held another meeting, and this time it actually did something. It was a tiny step but, thanks to Australia, a step forward nevertheless towards forging international consensus that it's time for the world to stand up for Syrians.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/syria-carnage-will-continue-if-the-world-merely-watches-20130424-2idz7.html

When people say that something needs to be done, the first thing that comes to mind is more military force. After Iraq and Afghanistan, the west needs to be wary of using military force.

Barber is just suggesting improved humanitarian aid so that injured people can get medical care. The Security Council has been reluctant to call on Syria to allow that. Better humanitarian access won't prevent war crimes.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Those seeking to overthrow are not agents of a western government
"Speed"


Ummmm really? I guess that depends what you mean by "agent".

The US and her allies aren't throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at them for no reason.

It's the same old story, staring us right in the face, yet we still don't want to believe that our imperial powers would engage in such behaviour.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
It's interesting that the US Government is denying that they have evidence of chemical weapons being used but an Israeli is saying that they are. The opinions expressed are by a senior Israeli public servant rather than being official government statements. Like Saudi Arabia with Iran, Israel may be concerned with Syria  maintaining some stability and with overly aggressive leaders being reined in.

From Israel's point of view, Assad was a decent leader for a neighbouring country. He was cooperative and didn't wage war or war-rhetoric. If Assad felt weakened, he might, like some other middle-eastern leaders, try firing missiles at Israel to try to gain popularity. Those seeking to overthrow are not agents of a western government but some will be affilliated with terrorist or organisations. If an organisation like Hamas or Al Qaeda got power in Syria, Israel would have a problem. The current leadership of Egypt would concern Israel after decades of stability with Mubarak in power.

I read these words today written by a Rebecca Barber, a policy adviser for Save the Children.
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/syria-carnage-will-continue-if-the-world-merely-watches-20130424-2idz7.html

When people say that something needs to be done, the first thing that comes to mind is more military force. After Iraq and Afghanistan, the west needs to be wary of using military force.

Barber is just suggesting improved humanitarian aid so that injured people can get medical care. The Security Council has been reluctant to call on Syria to allow that. Better humanitarian access won't prevent war crimes.
Speed

What needs to be done is simple and it keeps the west out of an internal fight,
- Enforce a no fly zone on the basis that there has been clear signs of civilan targetting.

- Enforce a no combat or safe zones where people can flee to in their own country and not be fired apon and get on with their lives, at least once there. This will need the backing of external powers to ensure this occurs. Even Iran and Russia would struggle to oppose this. This also protects the neighbouring countries from endless refugees.

- People entering such protected areas must be disarmed. People leaving cannot take anything but their personal possions and not able to take away supplied food and other materials.

- The above locations would be at or near borders for food and medical supplies to enter
  Speed Minister for Railways

The Americans are changing their official opinion.
Now the US says there is evidence that chemical weapons have been used "on a small scale". "Our intelligence community does assess with varying degrees of confidence that the Syrian regime has used chemical weapons on a small scale in Syria," US National Security Council spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden said.

The assessment, which she said was based in part on "physiological samples", points to the possible use of sarin, a man-made nerve agent.
...
US defence secretary Chuck Hagel, speaking in Abu Dhabi, said the decision to release the intelligence report had been "made within the past 24 hours" and warned that use of such weapons "violates every convention of warfare". "We cannot confirm the origin of these weapons, but we do believe that any use of chemical weapons in Syria would very likely have originated with the Assad regime," he said.

A US defence official travelling with Mr Hagel confirmed that the phrase "varying degrees of confidence" is a term commonly used by the intelligence community to indicate disagreement among various agencies.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-26/us-says-syria-likely-used-chemical-weapons/4652130
  northbritish Chief Train Controller

Drag foreign powers in?

Who do you think is supporting the so-called "Free" Syrian Army and hosting the Syrian National Council?

Foreign powers have been involved in this from the beginning.

Syria is just another country being taught the ultimate lesson for not following orders from Washington.
HeadShunt
Can you show us proof of this please?
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Can you show us proof of this please?
northbritish
I can't give you absolute proof of anything, but the BBC, CNN or Fox can't be trusted to give you that, either. However, reports of western involvement in Syria are not hard to find. I just Googled "syrian rebels western support" and got 84,600,000 results.

Other foreign powers that appear to be involved to the extent of supplying the FSA with military equipment include Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia. It may or may not be significant that all three of those countries are under some degree of US influence.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

The USA should keep its interfering nose out of other countries troubles, unless they directly attack the US.
Only then does the US have a right to attack Syria.

But Syria is spreading their civil war into neighbouring countries such as Lebanon & Turkey. Don't both of those countries have a right to defend their countries, to retaliate and attack Syria?; and don't those two countries now have right to declare war on Syria? (well the Syrian government at least)?

No matter who wins (or should that be who loses more) this civil war, it will just be taken over by some other dictator, and start all over again.
  michaelgreenhill Administrator That's Numberwang!

Location: Melbourne
I can't give you absolute proof of anything, but the BBC, CNN or Fox can't be trusted to give you that, either. However, reports of western involvement in Syria are not hard to find. I just Googled "syrian rebels western support" and got 84,600,000 results.
HeadShunt
So what? I Googled "Syrian rebels broccoli" and scored 202,000,000 results. "Syrian rebels pineapple" scored 224,000,000 results!

Your point is invalid. Please supply evidence that western governments are supporting the Syrian rebels, or go home.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
So what? I Googled "Syrian rebels broccoli" and scored 202,000,000 results. "Syrian rebels pineapple" scored 224,000,000 results!
michaelgreenhill
I like broccoli.

Not so keen on pineapple.
  TheLoadedDog The Ghost of George Stephenson

Such is the modern internet.

I got 2,160 results for... wait for it....  "syrian rebels molybdenum spittoons poseidon growler".

I only got zero when I tried to add "AD60 Garratt" to it all.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

So what? I Googled "Syrian rebels broccoli" and scored 202,000,000 results. "Syrian rebels pineapple" scored 224,000,000 results!

Your point is invalid. Please supply evidence that western governments are supporting the Syrian rebels, or go home.
michaelgreenhill
So what? Did you look at any of those results? It looks like you'd rather just home in on that one sentence and ridicule it. Well done. Since you somehow seem to have missed it, my point was that it is very easy to find articles relating to this issue, something I also mentioned. Maybe this suggestion about Western support for the rebels is something you just don't want to hear.

There are numerous articles all over the web about the hundreds of millions of dollars that have been thrown at the rebels, supposedly in non-lethal support.

How about this?

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/25/world/middleeast/arms-airlift-to-syrian-rebels-expands-with-cia-aid.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Their is unconfirmed reports (or possibly just a rumour) that Syria has declared war on Israel, and that Syrian troops are moving close to Israel's borders.

Edit: The newsreader said that she has heard reports to this, but the CNN journalist hasn't really heard of any reports as such. Edit: At the moment, it doesn't seem to be case, not to say that it won't happen.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
Their is unconfirmed reports (or possibly just a rumour) that Syria has declared war on Israel, and that Syrian troops are moving close to Israel's borders.

Edit: The newsreader said that she has heard reports to this, but the CNN journalist hasn't really heard of any reports as such. Edit: At the moment, it doesn't seem to be case, not to say that it won't happen.
Newcastle Express
Quite within their rights too, but probably pre-occupied with other things at the moment.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Quite within their rights too, but probably pre-occupied with other things at the moment.
bingley hall

Maybe Assard in his desperate attempt for power will try and unite against a common enemy, however I don't think the locals will unite with him after what he's done in last 2 years. If the troops marched to the border/Golan heights, Damascus would fall.

Edit: Reading this in the news some more, I wonder if this is the US/NATO's way of trying to help the Syrian Opposition without officially helping.

ie Get Israel to bomb a few key targets under the guise they are moving towards Lebanon (read, more baddies) or Israel (read to hurt civilians directly). Israel can take out a few key targets and give the opposition some much needed support. Few will care about what Israel has done (read, just another middle east scuffle) and those do hate Israel anyway, so no love lost.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Their is unconfirmed reports (or possibly just a rumour) that Syria has declared war on Israel, and that Syrian troops are moving close to Israel's borders.
Newcastle Express
Ah, that won't take Israel long to resolve, they will just finish what they should have done in 1973.

Interestingly, way back then a previous President Assad watched as Israeli troops got to within spitting distance of Damascus before somehow deciding that this was a great Syrian victory and calling off their side of the war... 'Surrender? We didn't surrender, we won', - so the Israelis went home laughing. I don't think the current Assad would do much better.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
All simply explained on Lateline (that hot bed of ABC communist propaganda) last night.

Others can continue to get their facts from The Telegraph and The Herald Sun.
  PaulAustin Locomotive Fireman

HeadShunt seems to be a time traveller from sometime in the early 1970s who doesn't realise that socialism/communism was defeated in the Cold War.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

HeadShunt seems to be a time traveller from sometime in the early 1970s who doesn't realise that socialism/communism was defeated in the Cold War.
PaulAustin
Where have I mentioned communism in this thread?

By the way, if you take a look at Western economies of the 21st century you'll find socialism in one form or another is very much alive, although not necessarily "well".

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