Tonsley Upgrade Thread

 
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The new Park and Ride is close to full every day and there's a heavy stream of traffic rolling out of the Tonsley Park complex (the location of said P&R for the Clovelly Park station) after each train arrives in the afternoon.
justapassenger
According to the signs there were 894 vacant spaces today at 10:00am!

The much, much smaller Tonsley carpark was approaching full.

Sponsored advertisement

  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
The timetable is a significant improvement with last train leaving Tonsley at 1909 which should cater for many students.

It would be good if there was an interconnecting minibus to Woodlands Park after that time.

Still 47 mins from Seaford during the day and 39 for the limited express.

Hopefully times can be reduced when a full EMU service is available as they are not operating at their potential (apart form 25 kV that is)

Ian
steam4ian
Ian,
The 1909 has been the last train since May 2014.  The changes are from hour to halfhourly during daytime. Currently the second unit (DEMU) for Tonsley has been stabled in the unelectrified siding at ARS during the day.

The EMU times are constrained by the delayed clearing of signals at level crossings which leads to preceding yellows and associated 40kph limit and the TSRs for sighting at level and ped crossings.

Alex C
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

According to the signs there were 894 vacant spaces today at 10:00am!

The much, much smaller Tonsley carpark was approaching full.
kipioneer
That would be because the Tonsley Park complex is currently closed for a week of intensive infrastructure works, to reopen next Monday.

When it's open, the park and ride is always close to full while the gravel parking at Tonsley is often half-empty.

The EMU times are constrained by the delayed clearing of signals at level crossings which leads to preceding yellows and associated 40kph limit and the TSRs for sighting at level and ped crossings.
62430
So, something which should be fixed if/when ETCS goes live?

It would be good if there was an interconnecting minibus to Woodlands Park after that time.
steam4ian
This could be provided without setting up a dedicated roster by restoring the 241 to its previous route (it used to incorporate the full length of the Tonsley bustitute* route) and timing it to provide that connection with the trains. If you're going to put people onto buses, they may as well be proper bus services which exploit the advantage of a bus (they can stop anywhere, not just at stations) instead of forcing people to travel past their destination and walk back from the station substitute stop.

What would be good is if the audio graffiti on the trains was reprogrammed so it didn't blabber on about changing here for trains to Tonsley at times when there are no trains to Tonsley. What would be really good is if trains were provided to/from Tonsley on weekends and at least until 10pm every night so these periods are minimised, and so 894 carloads of people could park at Tonsley Park (and another 12 or so at Tonsley station) for an event in the city.

Thinking a touch outside the box, thought should be given to providing a road-rail equipped 24-seater bus for the Tonsley shuttle (stopping at a hardstand next to Ascot Park station) outside of normal operating hours, which would be significantly faster than the bustitute weaving around Bradley Grove. If it can be done with light-medium trucks, it can be done with the buses based on the same chassis. If there is a rule in the way, it can be rescinded or a derogation issued by the same authority which created it!


* interestingly, this browser's best correct spelling suggestion for 'bustitute' happens to be 'destitute' Very Happy
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
...

The EMU times are constrained by the delayed clearing of signals at level crossings which leads to preceding yellows and associated 40kph limit and the TSRs for sighting at level and ped crossings.

So, something which should be fixed if/when ETCS goes live?

...
justapassenger

ETCS cab signalling might eliminate the 40kph rule (but will it with the concern about SPADs), but will not address the delayed clearing of signals to reduce train occupancy of crossings nor the sighting concerns about crossings which have generated the TSRs.


Thinking a touch outside the box, thought should be given to providing a road-rail equipped 24-seater bus for the Tonsley shuttle (stopping at a hardstand next to Ascot Park station) outside of normal operating hours, which would be significantly faster than the bustitute weaving around Bradley Grove. If it can be done with light-medium trucks, it can be done with the buses based on the same chassis. If there is a rule in the way, it can be rescinded or a derogation issued by the same authority which created it!
justapassenger
Road-rail trucks are used for maintenance under a controlled possession (which generally have stringent work conditions) and not in passenger carrying service!!  Are you seriously advocating the abondonment of safe-working regulations, but what's a rule or two?

Alex C
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Are you seriously advocating the abondonment of safe-working regulations
62430
Certainly not. I'm suggesting that appropriate regulations and procedures could be created to make it safe.

Of course, providing a proper station platform at Ascot Park for the Tonsley line would allow a shuttle to be run by a proper railcar instead of finding a cheaper option.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

Noticed recently on Belair trains it no longer says please mind the gap at every station only certain times, some trips every second stop other trips seems to be only stations in need of upgrades like Torrens Park, Mile End etc.  Plus it now says next stop is Goodwood change here for trains to Seaford no Tonsley any more -  it usd to have Tonsley (in a really loud volume Laughing) then Seaford (normal volume).

Plus I'm guessing these increases to Tonley services are like step 2 in a really long programme of increasing services,  A 20 minute service and a 20 minute Flinders Uni Bedford Park - Hospital - Flinders Uni Tonsley - Clovelly Park Station - Tonsley Station - Hospital - Uni Bedford Park Loop service, it could go in both directions. Getting the whatever percentage of the 20,000 students and faculty at Flinders who travel through to the city onto trains will ease congestion on Goodwood Rd / South Rd buses.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Noticed recently on Belair trains it no longer says please mind the gap at every station only certain times, some trips every second stop other trips seems to be only stations in need of upgrades like Torrens Park, Mile End etc.  Plus it now says next stop is Goodwood change here for trains to Seaford no Tonsley any more -  it usd to have Tonsley (in a really loud volume Laughing) then Seaford (normal volume).

Plus I'm guessing these increases to Tonley services are like step 2 in a really long programme of increasing services,  A 20 minute service and a 20 minute Flinders Uni Bedford Park - Hospital - Flinders Uni Tonsley - Clovelly Park Station - Tonsley Station - Hospital - Uni Bedford Park Loop service, it could go in both directions. Getting the whatever percentage of the 20,000 students and faculty at Flinders who travel through to the city onto trains will ease congestion on Goodwood Rd / South Rd buses.
torrens5022
The duplication of the branch at Tonsley Jn was stated to allow a 15 min service.  

Alex C
  SouthAussie94 Station Staff

@alpsa on Twitter

BREAKING: @SMullighan & Fed Gov announce plans to extend Tonsley Rail to Flinders Medical Centre & @Flinders Uni







  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
@alpsa on Twitter

BREAKING: @SMullighan & Fed Gov announce plans to extend Tonsley Rail to Flinders Medical Centre & @Flinders Uni
SouthAussie94
DPTI are not quite so positive on their website...
The Tonsley rail line is being investigated to be extended to link the Flinders Medical Centre (FMC) and Flinders University to the existing passenger rail network, through the Flinders Link Project.
DPTI
I would love to see this eventuate but I'll wait for something a little more concrete than a political party tweet.

Richard.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Good to hear this is at least on the table even if not yet confirmed, and that routes for active transport would be an integrated part of it.

I'm not so keen on having the Flinders station in the spot it is shown on those concept plans, it needs to be hard up against the access road (without that car parking between the station and access road) with the bus interchange relocated there (underneath an elevated station?) as well. Done right, dedicated entry/exit lanes would allow for quicker bus access to/from Main South Road and Sturt Road, plus a quicker route up to the university on University Drive rather than Flinders Drive. Remember that access to hospitals is heavily used by people who are sick, injured or requiring mobility aids!

I expect that Tonsley station would be shifted back along the line to be adjacent to the southern part of the Tonsley Park precinct instead of the current spot nearer to Sturt Road.
  Sojourner Train Controller

On the surface it seems a good idea, the Tonsley line worked in well with the terminus at Chrysler / Mitsubishi, but moving the end station to Flinders will enable it to service more people as a part of the transport hub/s that are there already. I hope it does go ahead, it would be a good project for both the SA rail network and the southern suburbs.
  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
I'm not so keen on having the Flinders station in the spot it is shown on those concept plans, it needs to be hard up against the access road (without that car parking between the station and access road) with the bus interchange relocated there (underneath an elevated station?) as well.  
justapassenger
I also have concerns about the depicted station location.  Even if the two-level FMC staff car park shown in the concept plan were demolished, it would still be quite remote from the bus interchange.  The suggested location appears to be where a ground-level car park is currently located (north of the constructed car park).  It would also be quite a climb for people attending the hospital and at the furthermost point from most of the out-patient clinics.

Richard.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
It's probably the worst proposal I've seen for an extension of the line; as Richard says (above) it actually terminates a really long way from the university proper and it would a terribly long uphill climb for anyone going from that station up to Flinders. Other, more expensive proposals made when electric trains first became a reality had the terminus at the end of an 800m tunnel terminating near the existing bus interchange outside the library but obviously that's going to be too expensive.
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

The proposal is good, being a Flinder's student I know the limitations of access to the Uni, there's no need to try to get a station near the current interchange, yes it's a hub but students still need to walk up the hill.  The proposal needs to be connected to a bus interchange, with a frequent Flinder's loop bus - connecting to each train - both clockwise and anti-clockwise (current loop only runs one way so can take 20 mins to travel a easy 5 min trip or very sweaty 7 to 10 min walk). Having the loop buses run to a single interchange will be much better then the current set up of some buses going to FUSA and some to FMC. Also it can take close to 10 mins on a bus - eg 600 to go through Flinders - a single interchange will help reduce travel times. The loop buses will stop at Sturt, Train Station, Registry, Social Sciences, Ridge Carpark, SILC, Hospital, Train etc - in both directions.  The station will need two platforms - due to the single line and a 15min peak service - morning Flinders bound / Afternoon City bound etc.  Without spending 10's or 100's of millions on getting a train to Registry - this option is good - a frequent bi-directional loop bus will cater to transport people to where they need to go around campus and FMC.
  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
It's probably the worst proposal I've seen for an extension of the line; as Richard says (above) it actually terminates a really long way from the university proper and it would a terribly long uphill climb for anyone going from that station up to Flinders. Other, more expensive proposals made when electric trains first became a reality had the terminus at the end of an 800m tunnel terminating near the existing bus interchange outside the library but obviously that's going to be too expensive.
don_dunstan

FU also now runs a "Tonsley Loop" bus service from registry around the ring road to the Tonsley campus. I wonder if the Clovelly Park station might be considered close enough to the Flinders area at Tonsley to replace the bus service.  

For the northern part of the Uni (ie the old Sturt CAE campus area and the Living precinct) the depicted station location would not be too bad for able-bodied students.  

The campus map at http://www.flinders.edu.au/about_the_campus_files/Documents/maps/campus_map.pdf unfortunately gives no sense of the topography but does help with layout.  The suggested railway station is where Uni car park P12A currently is.

Richard.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I'm not so keen on having the Flinders station in the spot it is shown on those concept plans, it needs to be hard up against the access road (without that car parking between the station and access road) with the bus interchange relocated there (underneath an elevated station?) as well.  
I also have concerns about the depicted station location.  Even if the two-level FMC staff car park shown in the concept plan were demolished, it would still be quite remote from the bus interchange.  The suggested location appears to be where a ground-level car park is currently located (north of the constructed car park).
rwatts
The current bus interchange is terrible and should be abandoned. Some regular commuters probably lose over an hour a week in time wasted on buses battling the congestion on Flinders Drive.

The current location of those two-level car parks could be a decent spot to put both the station and a fit-for-purpose bus interchange with dedicated access lanes back down to the intersection of Flinders Drive and Main South Road. It would be about the same distance to the major Northern Entrance to FMC proper, but a win for people going to Flinders Private, the cancer centre and the Margaret Tobin Centre. This location would also be better for buses then heading up to Flinders University, as they could go up via University Drive instead of battling along Flinders Drive.

Another option could be removing the on-street parking along Flinders Drive so it can occupy a smaller corridor and put the train station alongside the current multi-storey parking. Then knock out one level of the car park and you can build a proper interchange complete with an express lane back towards Main South Road.

The suggested location appears to be where a ground-level car park is currently located (north of the constructed car park).
rwatts
That is Flinders University overflow parking, not hospital parking, and requires a uni parking permit.

With the shifting of the CSEM school to the Tonsley campus, the parking needs of the uni are declining rather than increasing. A quadruple combination of improved public transport access, improved active transport access, more stuff at Tonsley and continuing shifts from face-to-face teaching towards online content delivery should ensure that their parking needs decline further even if student numbers rise.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

FU also now runs a "Tonsley Loop" bus service from registry around the ring road to the Tonsley campus. I wonder if the Clovelly Park station might be considered close enough to the Flinders area at Tonsley to replace the bus service.
rwatts
Tonsley station would have to be relocated if this was built to make room for the approach ramp, ideally by replacing both the current Tonsley and Clovelly Park stations with a new station about 200 metres south of Alawoona Ave in a more appropriate location for the bulk of the business/education parts of Tonsley Park.

Unless the whole line gets converted to a tram (the only way it could possibly get up to any part of the Flinders Uni campus, there will still be a major role for a Tonsley Park-FMC-Ring Road bus service - simply because the real problem is with the Flinders end. This should probably be a shared funding arrangement with ticketing available with MetroCard or free with the swiping of a Flinders Uni student/staff card.
  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
That is Flinders University overflow parking, not hospital parking, and requires a uni parking permit.
justapassenger
And hence why in my later post I referred to it as Uni car park P12A.  However it was announced in November that P12 (for which P12A is the overflow) and P1 would temporarily be available for use by FMC staff and permits would be issued by FMC.

All this was because of the scheduled closure of FMC Southern and Creek car parks but this seems to be in a state of flux at this time.  From memory this is for building works to accommodate the lovely new facilities the government is promising to replace those offered by the Repat (especially new Rehab and Psychogeriatric facilities).

The proposal was/is for FMC staff to be able to use the Tonsley Park and Ride car park with a shuttle bus supplied.  Already many FMC staff must use the "Lonestar" car park on the other side of South Road and that itself was in danger with the Darlington South Road works.  I was therefore interested to see on the latest concept design the annotation "No loss of carpark at 'Lonestar' site".

Your comments about university parking needs declining may or may not pan out.  FMC parking requirements for both staff and patients on the other hand continue to grow alarmingly.

Richard.
  nm39 Chief Commissioner

Location: By a road taking pictures
It is all very well to put a line on a piece of paper and say "That's where we'll put it" but how about considering the grades involved for the line. The only solution to getting a train to service the Uni is to tunnel into the hillside and while you are at it make the tunnel go underneath the current position of the bus interchange at the Hospital entrance. Underground stations would service both destinations. Now where is 4BJ's pig.....
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

It is all very well to put a line on a piece of paper and say "That's where we'll put it" but how about considering the grades involved for the line. The only solution to getting a train to service the Uni is to tunnel into the hillside and while you are at it make the tunnel go underneath the current position of the bus interchange at the Hospital entrance. Underground stations would service both destinations. Now where is 4BJ's pig.....
nm39
To get an adhesion railway up to Flinders University, it would need to be an elevated station for Flinders Medical Centre above the current bus interchange location before entering a tunnel for a sub-surface station underneath car park 1 - you can forget about any more central location thanks to the length of the lifts and escalators required.

The proposed tram line of the Darlington Transport Study had it using a couple of tight curves to extend the distance enough to gain the elevation needed for a surface stop in the current location of car park 1.

The real problem is that the university was built on the top of a hill while a residential area was built in the area on the opposite side of Flinders Drive from FMC instead of the other way around, a classic relic of the days when Playford's pandering to the car industry ruined Adelaide's previously world class transport system - now 60 years behind and dropping further behind every day.

The morally bankrupt actions of Playford cannot be easily undone, best to just accept that there will always be a role for buses there (electric buses regenerating when going downhill in the not too distant future, you would hope) and that the best rail option is a ground level station alongside Flinders Drive with passive provision for doubling and extension through a tunnel in the direction of Aberfoyle Park.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Flinders, Monash Clayton, Latrobe - they were all located in the middle of nowhere because they were built in the sixties when cars were the way of the future. I don't think you can lay that one squarely on Playford, everyone else was doing it too.

The most sensible compromise with a Flinders University terminus would be to relocate the bus interchange down to a new spot at car-park one and have the train terminus just underneath - the gradient shouldn't be too difficult for an electric train but the line would have to start climbing from the present terminus at Tonsley for it to work (as justapassenger says). Just a thought as an alumni who is familiar with the area.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The morally bankrupt actions of Playford cannot be easily undone...
justapassenger
Chifley and Menzies both supported what Playford was doing - it was for the sake of providing a bigger consumer base for Australian made cars. It was just how people thought back then - it was the nuclear age, everyone was going to have computer-guided flying cars by now. After the war people looked at tram systems with disgust as a relic of the 19th century, there were many who were actually glad that the tram lines got ripped out because they viewed them as an antiquated mode of transport that would not be required in the future. They were ultimately proven wrong.

...and that the best rail option is a ground level station alongside Flinders Drive with passive provision for doubling and extension through a tunnel in the direction of Aberfoyle Park.
justapassenger
Given the expansion that's happened down south in the last 20 years it would make sense that the Tonsley line would eventually go south and perhaps meet with the easement of the old Onkaparinga line. But the topography would make it a really expensive proposition.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Flinders, Monash Clayton, Latrobe - they were all located in the middle of nowhere because they were built in the sixties when cars were the way of the future. I don't think you can lay that one squarely on Playford, everyone else was doing it too.

The most sensible compromise with a Flinders University terminus would be to relocate the bus interchange down to a new spot at car-park one and have the train terminus just underneath - the gradient shouldn't be too difficult for an electric train but the line would have to start climbing from the present terminus at Tonsley for it to work (as justapassenger says). Just a thought as an alumni who is familiar with the area.
don_dunstan
Add Macquarie University in Nth Sydney and NSW University in the Eastern Suburbs, although for the later I'm not sure if the ESR southern branch was still in plan at the time NSW uni was.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

...and that the best rail option is a ground level station alongside Flinders Drive with passive provision for doubling and extension through a tunnel in the direction of Aberfoyle Park.
Given the expansion that's happened down south in the last 20 years it would make sense that the Tonsley line would eventually go south and perhaps meet with the easement of the old Onkaparinga line. But the topography would make it a really expensive proposition.
don_dunstan
I wouldn't want to aim at meeting the old Willunga line, because the vast majority of the route was never fit for purpose when it was built. Only a couple of destinations have grown up around the old corridor - the Hallett Cove-Sheidow Park area and the short section where the corridor has been reused at Seaford.

The route I was thinking of for a Tonsley extension would be to skirt along the western edge of Aberfoyle Park, run south through Happy Valley and then follow the contour to approach Woodcroft and Morphett Vale from the north-east.

I agree that it would be expensive. But that's why you go for passive provision, because there may well come a time when not building it will be even more costly than building it. The post-peak decline in car usage will come, regardless of the attempts of the state ALP regime to hold off making the tough calls with a desperate road building program.


The first section of the corridor after branching off at the current Hallett Cove station location might be worth reusing. A Tonsley/Grange style spur from a couple of new stations at Hallett Cove Central and Sheidow Park. Once the Aldinga extension is up and running, this would present a useful place to terminate stopping trains while allowing the longer distance services to stop only at 3-4 major stations between Hallett Cove and the city.
  BBattarbee Station Staff

Location: Morphett Vale
...and that the best rail option is a ground level station alongside Flinders Drive with passive provision for doubling and extension through a tunnel in the direction of Aberfoyle Park.
Given the expansion that's happened down south in the last 20 years it would make sense that the Tonsley line would eventually go south and perhaps meet with the easement of the old Onkaparinga line. But the topography would make it a really expensive proposition.
I wouldn't want to aim at meeting the old Willunga line, because the vast majority of the route was never fit for purpose when it was built. Only a couple of destinations have grown up around the old corridor - the Hallett Cove-Sheidow Park area and the short section where the corridor has been reused at Seaford.

The route I was thinking of for a Tonsley extension would be to skirt along the western edge of Aberfoyle Park, run south through Happy Valley and then follow the contour to approach Woodcroft and Morphett Vale from the north-east.

I agree that it would be expensive. But that's why you go for passive provision, because there may well come a time when not building it will be even more costly than building it. The post-peak decline in car usage will come, regardless of the attempts of the state ALP regime to hold off making the tough calls with a desperate road building program.


The first section of the corridor after branching off at the current Hallett Cove station location might be worth reusing. A Tonsley/Grange style spur from a couple of new stations at Hallett Cove Central and Sheidow Park. Once the Aldinga extension is up and running, this would present a useful place to terminate stopping trains while allowing the longer distance services to stop only at 3-4 major stations between Hallett Cove and the city.
justapassenger
Tunnel under Flinders University bridge over Sturt River tunnel under Flagstaff Road between Bonney view Road and Salvador Street. Around and across the valley to tunnel under the intersection of Black Road an Main South Road, coming out to pass through the valley in Glenthorne farm towards Main South Road and connect with the old corridor tunnelling under the South Road past the Panalatinga Road intersection. With stations at Reynella and Morphett Vale.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.