Tonsley Upgrade Thread

 
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
With the Tonsley transport upgrade announced in the state budget the DPTI has posted this video on YouTube

http://youtu.be/mYwu7WoxQlM

And this brochure

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/99907/Tonsley_Park_brochure.pdf

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  justapassenger Minister for Railways

That's a nice pretty picture, but did nobody think putting the bus interchange near the train station might be a good idea?
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Unless the train is on the other side of the bus landing it is not an interchange, it is an embarrassment; we do get adverse weather in Adelaide.

I fear there is a single buttock out there without a leg to stand on.

Any thing will be an improvement and it is long way from shutting down the service as suggested by some.
  K-Class Chief Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
That's a nice pretty picture, but did nobody think putting the bus interchange near the train station might be a good idea?
justapassenger
The problem is the lack of space at Tonsley station.  To put in an interchange then size shown in the brochure they would need to acquire a number of homes and remove them.  

One way to greatly improve the situation is to build a covered walkway and bridge across Sturt Rd.

Matt
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

The problem is the lack of space at Tonsley station.  To put in an interchange then size shown in the brochure they would need to acquire a number of homes and remove them.  

One way to greatly improve the situation is to build a covered walkway and bridge across Sturt Rd.

Matt
K-Class
I know the area, and I can verify that this picture shows the buses as being not only across the road, but a fair way along to the east as well. Done this way, the 15 minute train frequency will be a useless white elephant.

In my opinion this would be a perfect spot to break the current policy to not build any new level crossings, and to put the new Sturt Interchange station inside the Sturt/South road triangle...

  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
I know the area, and I can verify that this picture shows the buses as being not only across the road, but a fair way along to the east as well. Done this way, the 15 minute train frequency will be a useless white elephant.

A perfect example of how local knowledge can be the answer to the planning mistakes of government departments. I use buses through the convoluted approaches to Flinders Hospital and University frequently. Having to turn right into South Road to get to or from  Flinders Drive is a time and fuel wasting pain when a simple extension across South Road to Laffers Drive would obviate it in one stroke. No rail extension to Flinders, with bridges and steep grades to overcome, would be necessary. There are already traffic lights at the intersection so nothing would be lost while the intersection is at grade, and a future road bridge feeding into Flinders Drive part way up the hill would be very much cheaper than a road/rail one. There are already shuttle buses serving the University. With a  direct interchange to the Sturt Station proposed in this scheme, there would be no need ever to extend the railway further.  This solution is neat and far cheaper than any other and that is a major advantage, as would for instance the retention and platform lengthening of the present convenient Oaklands station under the roads, using the ample open space available. This would be greatly preferable to passengers who would not have to climb stairs or wait for lifts while they miss the train as they would with the departmental 'solution'.  (Any replies to this to the Oaklands Station thread please.)

In my opinion this would be a perfect spot to break the current policy to not build any new level crossings, and to put the new Sturt Interchange station inside the Sturt/South road triangle...
Hear! Hear! Congratulations Justapassenger.
justapassenger
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
I reckon the perfect place to put an interchange would be where the ambulance station is. The government already own this land all they would need to do is demolish the ambulance building (which doesn't actually house any ambulances) and build a roadway with a large island platform in order to have 2 or 3 bus zones, eg to the city, from the city, to Marion and Flinders.

I think this is a much better option.
  Seldom_21 Junior Train Controller

Location: South Australia
That station does house ambulances, but not as many, because the patient transport side of things went to Edwardstown. It does house an emergency ambulance between 6:00-18:00 and 18:00-6:00, so 24 hours a day. Whether ambulances are housed there 24 hours a day is irrelevant, it is a station where paramedics, team leaders etc can take breaks, admin work and wait for calls when they're not ramped at flinders Razz etc. It is, from SAAS's perspective an important building for a number of reasons, and, unless they found a more strategically better place to put it, eg. like they did with the old city station to parkside, then they won't demolish it.

I agree with justapassenger's idea, I think it could work. But gee wiz, this Government has bugger all idea about planing.....

Seldom
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
I know the area, and I can verify that this picture shows the buses as being not only across the road, but a fair way along to the east as well. Done this way, the 15 minute train frequency will be a useless white elephant.

In my opinion this would be a perfect spot to break the current policy to not build any new level crossings, and to put the new Sturt Interchange station inside the Sturt/South road triangle...

justapassenger

But are you familiar with the Salisbury level crossing accident (2002) where the ghan demolished a bus and car trapped at a level crossing and killed 4 people ?
Obviously not if you're considering any form of intersection that close to a level crossing. There is just no way the government would approve this plan, the risk of vehicles getting trapped or delayed at the crossing is all too real.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/rair/rair2002002.aspx

Given the limited space, it would make more sense to put the entire station on a bridge over sturt road, that way some of the bus interchange could be located underneath and the remainder would be closer to the station.
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
The ambulances are not parked in the depot, there is always an ambulance parked out the front on Sturt road.
The patient transfer side of SAAS is rumoured to be move to ashford anyway.
  Seldom_21 Junior Train Controller

Location: South Australia
We'll have to disagree mate, I have it on very good authority that there are spares kept in the sheds and the ambulance that runs out from there does use that shed. Ambulances parked on sturt road are usually those covering on standby at Marion station, either from O'halloran hill or Noarlunga. Patient transport, as I said earlier, moved 6 months ago to Edwardstown and Gepps Cross. Station is still used on a very regular basis, besides, SAAS should not be forced to move just because the Government can't plan better. The Govt. really needed to do their homework before coming out with the plan. just my 2 cents worth though..
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

But are you familiar with the Salisbury level crossing accident (2002) where the ghan demolished a bus and car trapped at a level crossing and killed 4 people ?
Obviously not if you're considering any form of intersection that close to a level crossing. There is just no way the government would approve this plan, the risk of vehicles getting trapped or delayed at the crossing is all too real.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2002/rair/rair2002002.aspx

Given the limited space, it would make more sense to put the entire station on a bridge over sturt road, that way some of the bus interchange could be located underneath and the remainder would be closer to the station.
fabricator

Good points to both Justapax and Fabricator.

The likelihood of a Salisbury type incident can be minimised by
  1. Having trains traverse the crossing slowly; only a shunt aspect given.
  2. Only one track width unlike the length of the Park Tce crossing
  3. Better traffic light/rail signal coordination.
  4. Stray vehicle detection in the rail zone

If the rail platform is not immediately adjacent the bus drop off point forget it, save the money.

Having it across the road and down the footpath gives the wrong message.

Regards
Ian
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
If the rail platform is not immediately adjacent the bus drop off point forget it, save the money.

Having it across the road and down the footpath gives the wrong message.

Regards
Ian
"steam4ian"


I fully agree with Ian here, what is the use of having the Buses a few hundred metres away from the platform?

I can see another alternative possibility (besides the extension of the line across Sturt Rd)
What if the Tonsley platform was relocated 200metres north adjacent the southern part of the old Mitzi property? (near Birch Cres, Ash Ave)
There is more than enough room for public carparking and a Bus Interchange. Access via a new roadway along the rail corridor to Sturt Road (approx 300 metres away) with a possibility of a link road across to Flinders Drive.

To my thoughts this would be far cheaper than grade separation at Sturt Road and negate the dangers associated with a new level crossing.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

But are you familiar with the Salisbury level crossing accident (2002) where the ghan demolished a bus and car trapped at a level crossing and killed 4 people ?
fabricator
I am aware of that collision, but I don't think it's fair to call it an accident (it was caused by drivers recklessly choosing not to obey the road rules - see the first conclusion of the investigation) or to use the active tense when referring to the train and its driver (the action causing the collision was that of the bus driver).

The solution to that isolated incident is not to punish the vast majority of drivers by shutting down every level crossing with a road junction within a hundred metre radius. Refitting level crossings with armoured gates or rising bollards should be considered before banning level crossings.
  rwatts Junior Train Controller

Location: Adelaide SA
Refitting level crossings with armoured gates or rising bollards should be considered before banning level crossings.
justapassenger
The Salisbury collision occurred because vehicles including the Bus had queued across the crossing and could not exit because of the Salisbury Highway intersection traffic lights.  Armoured gates or rising bollards would have done nothing (useful) in that incident as the vehicles were stuck on the crossing before it activated.  Changes have been made at this and many other crossings near intersections (eg South Road on the OH line) to alleviate such queuing.

Back on topic,  another fanciful idea (and why not since only a small portion of duplication is all that has really been funded at this stage) - how about gently lowering the line starting from north of Tonsley station and taking it below Sturt road on the same alignment you suggest?  Stairs, ramps and lifts could take passengers straight from bus door to platform in seconds.

Richard.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Part of the problem with LXs is that the bells are only activated 20-25 second before the train arrives. Fine for motorists in normal circumstances but no good for a train travelling at more than say 20 kph, as for the Ghan at Salisbury. For an LX on Sturt Road train speeds will be such that there is time to check the crossing is clear of road vehicles before releasing any rail signal protecting it.
  normangerman Junior Train Controller

If you want the government to (presumably) hear what plans and tips you have on how to do it better, fill out the comments form on the website. If you don't and it stays the same, you only have yourself to blame.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
Well what would work best is if the line was dual tracked from the ascot park junction over daws road through Mitchell park station and the redeveloped Clovelly park station located on the opposite side of the Mitsubishi access road with the park and ride located in the Mitsubishi site. the line then become single track just at the south western edge of the Mitsubishi site. the line runs single track through the now defunct tonsley station and over Sturt road through a level crossing or over an underpass with the relocated tonsley station positioned next to the Sturt police station on the track between Sturt road and Hugh cairns avenue. the bus interchange is located next to the station with buses arriving through Hugh cairns avenue, turning around in the interchange and exiting onto Sturt road through laffer drive. the existing car park (lot 66) located adjacent to laffer drive can serve as the parking lot for the interchange with a footbridge connecting the station platform to the car park. a frequent flinders uni loop bus offers flawless connections to the uni and flinders medical centre and that is my plan topped with a 15 minute train frequency!

or at the very least extend the track about 100m down to the northern edge of Sturt road and then have a footbridge over to the bus interchange as Adelaide DOES have rainy electrical storms and 45 degree days!
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
While I normally don't support more LX but at same time acknowledging that 90% + of LX interactions between vehicle and train are due to the road vehciles stupidity, I see the benefit for a LX under the following conditions, some used to apply to Ferny Grove (terminus station) in Qld prior to upgrade.

- Train leaves Cloverly Park station (assume 3min to new Tonsely station across road), system detects train is on way and prevents any pedestrian crossings lights from stopping traffic until train comes.
- 1min down the track the boom gates which are also traffic lights are triggered, (Boom gates and flashing bells and lights on their own are a waste of time, traffic lights stop traffic!).
- Once traffic is stopped ped crossing lights clear for cross
- Reasonable braking distance prior to the train entering the LX at reduced speed as station is also just across the road, obstruction detector confirms LS is clear. Also driver has access to incab CCTV of LX from same location via wireless connection (Mel has same I believe on stations to aid DOO).
- Train crosses road and into station. As soon as the train has cleared, intersection is cleared for passage by cars.

In return,
- 30sec prior to departure, driver presses in cab button and closes the road crossing.
- All clear given and train on time to depart.

On a 15min timetable, the road will be closed for about 1min every 7.5min, no worse than traffic lights.

A a 200-300m walk for an interchange is not that bad. You would walk longer at Sydney Central or Melbourne Spenser Street doing an interchange or even changing trains. but a covered walk way would be nice.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
....
A a 200-300m walk for an interchange is not that bad. You would walk longer at Sydney Central or Melbourne Spenser Street doing an interchange or even changing trains. but a covered walk way would be nice.
RTT_Rules

You're looking at longer than that to the university.  And that's the whole point, it's such a short distance, take the train all the way.

Have two stations, one at the medical centre and one at that bottom car-park at Flinders.  It's a huge trip-generator, so is the medical centre.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

- 1min down the track the boom gates which are also traffic lights are triggered, (Boom gates and flashing bells and lights on their own are a waste of time, traffic lights stop traffic!).
RTT_Rules
Agreed. This is why lots of Adelaide level crossings (especially on the Glenelg tram route) have been retro-fitted with traffic lights in recent years.

Being right outside a major police station would also help in this case, as an example the first few idiots caught running the crossing could be taken straight into the station to have their car and person given a full search to see what other laws they are flouting.

Also driver has access to incab CCTV of LX from same location via wireless connection (Mel has same I believe on stations to aid DOO).
RTT_Rules

Same in Adelaide.

On a 15min timetable, the road will be closed for about 1min every 7.5min, no worse than traffic lights.
RTT_Rules

Possibly closer to 90 seconds. Most importantly, it wouldn't make any difference on a secondary connecting road like Sturt Road - it is the minor crossing road at intersections with major arterial roads either end of that section. The level crossing would only make a slight difference to when you join the queue behind the lights.

A a 200-300m walk for an interchange is not that bad. You would walk longer at Sydney Central or Melbourne Spenser Street doing an interchange or even changing trains. but a covered walk way would be nice.
RTT_Rules

For a city's central station that might be true, but it's not fit for purpose at a suburban interchange.
  redadare Junior Train Controller

Location: Flagstaff Hill
Tonsley line due for commencement of work approx 1st Aug.
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
Source?
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

I thought they already started working on it when I saw that dirt dug up between Ascot Park station and Daws Road.
  Tonsley213 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Everywhere except South Kensington
That's been dug up for ages. Probably may last year

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