Boat People - where to now!

 
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
You expect too much. Laughing

Besides you don't get that depth of information in a cock jock rant or a 15 sec Abbott/Morrison news grab.

They are not about solving an issue, it's about blowing it out of all proportion for political advantage and there are plenty of those fear and greed buttons to push Rolling Eyes
cootanee
You're right.

I was actually expecting some reasonable debate on the subject; not just a re-hash of the Liberal Party spin, which is being perpetuated by people who have little to no knowledge on the subject beyond what the Murdoch owned media or Liberal Party pamphlets/propoganda tell them.

There's been no acknowledgement that it's not just Australia refugees are coming to at the moment, nor that the numbers arriving in our waters are bugger-all compared to other countries. Anyone would think that Rudd is at fault for the refugees entering other countries as well if some of these arguments were to be taken seriously. Afterall, he must have dismantled their "Pacific Solutions" as well...

I suppose it's all too inconvenient for them to ignore it - they know they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they didn't.

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  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I haven't voted Labor this century, I usually vote for minor parties or independents.
don_dunstan

So you are just pissing your vote down the drain?

I would have thought we have just witnessed a perfect demonstration with the current government of what can happen when minor representatives get control of a government.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
After the Great Debate last night, Channel 7 had an on-line poll asking people to put 5 categories into their order of importance. They were Health, Education, The Economy, Illegal Immigration and Leadership.

The Economy came in first by a country mile, followed by Health and Education. However Leadership was fourth and Illegal Immigration was last. There was hardly anything between the last three, but it shows how little the people really care about boat people.

It is a really handy smoke screen for both parties when neither are doing anything about the first 3 things that people do care about.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
So you are just pissing your vote down the drain?

I would have thought we have just witnessed a perfect demonstration with the current government of what can happen when minor representatives get control of a government.
TheBlacksmith

1) Almost all votes end up being re-allocated in preference swaps/reallocation in both houses, so it's not really a waste.  Nearly every vote ends up going to the major parties regardless of how you vote.
2) The major parties will not get the message that I'm unhappy with both of them unless I give my vote to someone else.  Yes, I've voted for some far-out people in the past but until someone starts taking my concerns seriously I'm going to keep doing it.  As I said earlier, I don't necessarily agree with everything Katter says but his message about having some degree of protectionism and the evils of privatisation really rings true with me.  So who knows, I may even give him my senate vote on the 7th... I haven't made up my mind yet.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
So you are just pissing your vote down the drain?

I would have thought we have just witnessed a perfect demonstration with the current government of what can happen when minor representatives get control of a government.
TheBlacksmith

Some people do feel disenfranchised by both sides. Shocked

There's a lot of BS around minority government spun by the cock jocks. Of course if they threw their lot in with Abbott... guess what Rolling Eyes

I'm surprised Labor ever win. They need to please so many special interest groups which means they end up pleasing few.

For Libs it's much simpler.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Some people do feel disenfranchised by both sides. Shocked

There's a lot of BS around minority government spun by the cock jocks. Of course if they threw their lot in with Abbott... guess what Rolling Eyes

I'm surprised Labor ever win. They need to please so many special interest groups which means they end up pleasing few.

For Libs it's much simpler.
cootanee
A minority govt at lower house level I think is a disastor and in most cases voting for a minority on the ballot paper is pissing against the wall.

Tasmania has operated in this fashion on and off a few times since 1989 and it hasn't helped them. During the eraly 90's when the Green-ALP accord was in place, the state lost alot of industry with upgrade money being sent elsewhere and the local plant closing sooner or later. I think the issues of what will be the last Fed ALP govt this decade only show this more so. There are simply too many compromises to even get policy to the floor, especially for ALP. If an ALP govt ever again does a deal to take power it just goes to show how power hungry they really are.

The minority parties and independents do not have the resources to fully investigate policy and most is made in feel good meetings by people who rarely fully comprehend the true outcome of their views on the nation. hence these groups should not be making policy, but I don't mind them reviewing! If you want a protest vote, its the upper house. The system being proportion voting means you have greater chance at sucess and at least the upper house is not the house of policy, but the house of review. Remember, "keep the bastards honest!" Something Qld lacks.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
How do you know where they came from in order to ship them back? This is one of the reasons they destroy their paperwork and passports.
TheBlacksmith
Well in that case simply ship them back to Indonesia and let them sort it out. After all as Aaron said Indonesia is the first place of safety for them. And if Indonesia does not or cannot do something about it then cut aid to Indonesia till they do. Not hard to do at all.

Just the act of trying to return them should point out that Australia is being tough on illegal entry to this country, if not open it up to all and sundry the borders that is and watch the flood. Be a bit like watching the Dambuster movie once a small hole is made in the dam wall, the wall soon collapses and makes a bigger opening.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The northern most island of Qld (AUS) is so close to PNG, that asylum seekers can walk over that part of Torres Strait at low side.

Once over, they have been promised and guaranteed citizenship, including medicare, Australia rates of Pay, etc., etc.

Presumably Rudd thought of this when his thought bubble came up with the PNG Solution.

A few Somalis have already come this way.
  T88 Junior Train Controller

Location: Banned
Still on topic. Came across this article.

Labor put Australia among the top ten foreign aid givers worldwide.

on Tuesday, July 23, 2013 in an interview with ABC 666 radio

Australia’s agreement to send asylum seekers to Papua New Guinea will entail an unspecified amount of aid and development dollars. There’s a separate debate to be had about how that money might be spent.

The issue of foreign aid is a testy one at the best of times. On the left, the claim is often made that Australia needs to lift its game and give more. On the far right, there is often lingering resentment that Australia sends money offshore while some citizens struggle at home.

Speaking to ABC radio on Tuesday, Labor’s Andrew Leigh was keen to talk up the government’s record: "We’re now a top ten foreign aid giver around the world. [This] happened under a Labor government."

We contacted Leigh and he referred us to a media release from the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Bob Carr:

"The Gillard Government will increase Australia's Official Development Assistance (ODA) to a record $5.7 billion in 2013-14. This is an increase of $513.4 million on 2012-13 and brings the aid budget to 0.37 per cent of gross national income (GNI)."

He also referred us to page 30 of the 2012-13 Budget Overview, which said:

"Australia's projected ODA contribution could see Australia rank as high as sixth in the OECD's ODA donor ranking by 2015 16, up from tenth in 2011."

We checked these figures against the OECD’s official aid statistics. In 2008, we gave US$4.07b, which ranked us 12/24 donor countries in terms of dollars spent. In 2012, that increased to $5.44b, and our rank improved to 8/24, bringing us into the top 10 as Leigh suggested. Whether we end up ranking 6th in 2015/16 will depend on what other countries do with their aid budgets.

Of course, Leigh’s critics would look past the dollar value of the aid and focus on our aid budget as a share of gross national income (GNI). That’s where things get a little less rosy for the government.

Labor wants aid spending to reach 0.5 per cent of GNI. It promised to reach this target in 2015/16, but the 2012/13 budget deferred this by one year. The 2013/14 budget deferred it by an additional year, meaning it won’t be reached until 2017/18.

The United Nations wants rich countries to give 0.7 per cent of GNI as foreign aid. Only five countries currently do so – a rather unsurprising rollcall of Luxembourg, Sweden, Norway, Denmark and The Netherlands.

In 2012, Australia gave 0.36 per cent of GNI, which ranked us 13/24.  The average country effort in that year was 0.43 per cent.

It should be noted, nonetheless, that in 2012 Australia increased its development aid by 9.1 per cent, in a year when global aid fell by four per cent in real terms.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
You're right.

I was actually expecting some reasonable debate on the subject; not just a re-hash of the Liberal Party spin, which is being perpetuated by people who have little to no knowledge on the subject beyond what the Murdoch owned media or Liberal Party pamphlets/propoganda tell them.

There's been no acknowledgement that it's not just Australia refugees are coming to at the moment, nor that the numbers arriving in our waters are bugger-all compared to other countries. Anyone would think that Rudd is at fault for the refugees entering other countries as well if some of these arguments were to be taken seriously. Afterall, he must have dismantled their "Pacific Solutions" as well...

I suppose it's all too inconvenient for them to ignore it - they know they wouldn't have a leg to stand on if they didn't.
Barrington Womble

Barrington, reading all your posts one could come to the conclusion quite easily that you are just re-hashing Labor party spin.  The Pacific Solution did work and it did "stop the boats" so to speak.  No sensible person can deny that and to do so is just being disingenuous.  And yes, Keven Krudd was the fool who dismantled it and opened the flood gates.

Yes, I agree the unauthorised movement of people around the world is a problem not just for Australia, but every country's circumstances are different and comparing our situation overall with every other country is like comparing apples with oranges.  The fact is that most people coming here are economic migrants who are carefully planning and paying for their movement and traversing multiple borders too.  That is not the true definition of a refugee according the UN charter.

The way I see it, the people that are pushing for open borders are really saying I don't care if peadophiles, terrorists, misogynist wife beaters, fraudsters, drug dealers and anarchists arrive in this country unchecked and unchallenged, because in their little personal kumbaya make believe world none of this exists. Their living with the pixies and fairies.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Well in that case simply ship them back to Indonesia and let them sort it out. After all as Aaron said Indonesia is the first place of safety for them. And if Indonesia does not or cannot do something about it then cut aid to Indonesia till they do. Not hard to do at all.

Just the act of trying to return them should point out that Australia is being tough on illegal entry to this country, if not open it up to all and sundry the borders that is and watch the flood. Be a bit like watching the Dambuster movie once a small hole is made in the dam wall, the wall soon collapses and makes a bigger opening.
David Peters

Yes, I agree entirely with that analogy about the dam.  Something I have been trying to get across to Barrington and all the other bleeding hearts.

If diplomacy does not work with Indonesia than the only option left for the Australian Government is to stand up to the racist parasites and call it how it is.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Yes, I agree entirely with that analogy about the dam.  Something I have been trying to get across to Barrington and all the other bleeding hearts.

If diplomacy does not work with Indonesia than the only option left for the Australian Government is to stand up to the racist parasites and call it how it is.
2301

Of course A + B = Z Laughing

More BS being put out by the cock jocks for you to hang your hat on... getting out of PNG, landing here and automatically you're settled cr#p. Again lets bang that can. Rolling Eyes


Yep in 2007 Labor dismantled the so called 'pacific' solution as per its election promise. Back then the world was fairly stable, there were SFA new boat people but we still had a few sitting in limbo on Nauru costing heaps. Bleeding hearts sure because we don't do the same to the most hardened crims here Exclamation. Nauru had become redundant and looking more like some Australian gulag everyday.

Who knows whether Nauru would have continued to work. Given that according to Abbott, the LNP guvmnt settled 40% here anyway that's pretty good odds for people smugglers to promote their business in a world post 2008 where the US was pulling out of Iraq, Afghanistan was hotting up and the GFC was hitting poorer countries. Social media also emerged to make selling it even easier.

What Labor got wrong is not what it did in 2007, but that it didn't respond to the world situation since 2008.

Now Abbott is going to put 5000 tents on Nauru (nice work for the company that gets that contract). Strange because he stopped the boats or turned them around (not up with the current slogan). Indonesia isn't too impressed with the rhetoric given that they fundamentally believe that people want to come here so it's Australia's problem.

As for that name calling labelling you continually need to fall back on... better bleeding hearts than small minded, paranoid ?????s any day... and twice at church on Sunday.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington, reading all your posts one could come to the conclusion quite easily that you are just re-hashing Labor party spin.  The Pacific Solution did work and it did "stop the boats" so to speak.  No sensible person can deny that and to do so is just being disingenuous.  And yes, Keven Krudd was the fool who dismantled it and opened the flood gates.

Yes, I agree the unauthorised movement of people around the world is a problem not just for Australia, but every country's circumstances are different and comparing our situation overall with every other country is like comparing apples with oranges.  The fact is that most people coming here are economic migrants who are carefully planning and paying for their movement and traversing multiple borders too.  That is not the true definition of a refugee according the UN charter.

The way I see it, the people that are pushing for open borders are really saying I don't care if peadophiles, terrorists, misogynist wife beaters, fraudsters, drug dealers and anarchists arrive in this country unchecked and unchallenged, because in their little personal kumbaya make believe world none of this exists. Their living with the pixies and fairies.
2301
Stop side-stepping my questions, and answer me.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Of course A + B = Z Laughing

More BS being put out by the cock jocks for you to hang your hat on... getting out of PNG, landing here and automatically you're settled cr#p. Again lets bang that can. Rolling Eyes


Yep in 2007 Labor dismantled the so called 'pacific' solution as per its election promise. Back then the world was fairly stable, there were SFA new boat people but we still had a few sitting in limbo on Nauru costing heaps. Bleeding hearts sure because we don't do the same to the most hardened crims here Exclamation. Nauru had become redundant and looking more like some Australian gulag everyday.

Who knows whether Nauru would have continued to work. Given that according to Abbott, the LNP guvmnt settled 40% here anyway that's pretty good odds for people smugglers to promote their business in a world post 2008 where the US was pulling out of Iraq, Afghanistan was hotting up and the GFC was hitting poorer countries. Social media also emerged to make selling it even easier.

What Labor got wrong is not what it did in 2007, but that it didn't respond to the world situation since 2008.

Now Abbott is going to put 5000 tents on Nauru (nice work for the company that gets that contract). Strange because he stopped the boats or turned them around (not up with the current slogan). Indonesia isn't too impressed with the rhetoric given that they fundamentally believe that people want to come here so it's Australia's problem.

As for that name calling labelling you continually need to fall back on... better bleeding hearts than small minded, paranoid ?????s any day... and twice at church on Sunday.
cootanee
Cootanee, What you are failing to realise is that back in 2006 there were wars happening from the main source countries from where we are receiving the current boat people from, but yet Australia was not on their radar screen back than because they knew that the Government of the day would not let them try it on.

Now these countries such as Sri Lanka, Iran and Afghanistan are stable and yet we are receiving more of them than ever.  One can only conclude that this is a direct result of the current Government's policy of previously having open borders.  What Krudd doesn't realise though is that it is too late because word is out - all you have to do is get here and you are in.


You are criticising Abbott for putting tents on Nauru, but what the hell is Krudd doing in PNG?
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Stop side-stepping my questions, and answer me.
Barrington Womble

Barrington, I cannot see how you think that I have been side-stepping your questions.  I have continually replied to all of your arguments in a constructive way by explaining my position and justifying it by using hard facts.  What I believe to be the case is that you just don't agree with my responses so your logic just automatically dismisses my arguments.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington, I cannot see how you think that I have been side-stepping your questions.  I have continually replied to all of your arguments in a constructive way by explaining my position and justifying it by using hard facts.  What I believe to be the case is that you just don't agree with my responses so your logic just automatically dismisses my arguments.
2301
You haven't provided any hard facts at all. Cite your sources - that is what I have been asking you to do this whole time.
So far, all I have seen is Liberal Party spin repeated. Your posts haven't been contructive either, as you slide too easily into the condescending. I've asked you for proof on all of your sources, so I can read these supposed facts and figures for myself - I'm not simply going to take your word on the matter without something to give it credibility, and that thing is proof. You give me no reason to believe any of your claims or arguments. Until you can front up some proof of your claims, I will be dismissive of your supposed "hard facts".
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Barrington, the hard facts are out there on the public record and come from the Government.  One only has to be switched into any form of modern communication to get these facts which are constantly being bandied around.  There is no need to provide cites as that is just a waste of time and you still wouldn't believe them anyway if it does not align with your opinions/beliefs.

And besides, it is just an informal conversation where we are also debating the logic behind Government policies and the different political ideology - we are not doing a thesis.

Finally, you say that I am sliding into being "condescending".  That is just completely absurd as I have not been the one using the bigot word.

With all due respect Barrington, you are starting to sound a bit like a pseudo intellectual by continually asking for cites..........
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Of course A + B = Z Laughing

More BS being put out by the cock jocks for you to hang your hat on... getting out of PNG, landing here and automatically you're settled cr#p. Again lets bang that can. Rolling Eyes


Yep in 2007 Labor dismantled the so called 'pacific' solution as per its election promise. Back then the world was fairly stable, there were SFA new boat people but we still had a few sitting in limbo on Nauru costing heaps. Bleeding hearts sure because we don't do the same to the most hardened crims here Exclamation. Nauru had become redundant and looking more like some Australian gulag everyday.

Who knows whether Nauru would have continued to work. Given that according to Abbott, the LNP guvmnt settled 40% here anyway that's pretty good odds for people smugglers to promote their business in a world post 2008 where the US was pulling out of Iraq, Afghanistan was hotting up and the GFC was hitting poorer countries. Social media also emerged to make selling it even easier.

What Labor got wrong is not what it did in 2007, but that it didn't respond to the world situation since 2008.

Now Abbott is going to put 5000 tents on Nauru (nice work for the company that gets that contract). Strange because he stopped the boats or turned them around (not up with the current slogan). Indonesia isn't too impressed with the rhetoric given that they fundamentally believe that people want to come here so it's Australia's problem.

As for that name calling labelling you continually need to fall back on... better bleeding hearts than small minded, paranoid ?????s any day... and twice at church on Sunday.
cootanee
Cootanee, after analysing many of your arguments and trying to understand your logic, I can now understand why the Nigerian scammers are having so much success with Australians.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington, the hard facts are out there on the public record and come from the Government.  One only has to be switched into any form of modern communication to get these facts which are constantly being bandied around.  There is no need to provide cites as that is just a waste of time and you still wouldn't believe them anyway if it does not align with your opinions/beliefs.

And besides, it is just an informal conversation where we are also debating the logic behind Government policies and the different political ideology - we are not doing a thesis.

Finally, you say that I am sliding into being "condescending".  That is just completely absurd as I have not been the one using the bigot word.

With all due respect Barrington, you are starting to sound a bit like a pseudo intellectual by continually asking for cites..........
2301
Didn't think you would, or could.

It wouldn't matter if this 'conversation' was down at the pub. I'd still ask you where you're getting your information from so I could check it out for myself. Being cynical about most things, I don't just take somebody I've never met (or heard of)'s word for it, and like to see things for myself. If you can't front up anything beyond using the "It's available on Public Record" cop-out, then I will simply think you're full of sh*t, as you can't provide anything to back your claims. It's as simple as that.

Nothing to do with being a psuedo intellectual. Seeing is believing.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
Barrington mate, don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical in your stance?  I cannot see where you are using cites except for that one link to the refugee council, which was completely biased.

Getting back on track, both side of politics have come to a general consensus that there is an issue with unauthorised arrivals because we would not have had the change in policy from Krudd and Labor if this wasn't the case.  The only mob that will never see this are the greens, but they are living down the bottom of the garden with the pixies and elves.

The issue now behind this debate is the logic coming from some people that all people who wish to settle here should be allowed to, with all benefits in tow.  The fact is that this ideology will never work.  Human nature dictates that survival of the fittest will rule and subsequently reason and sensibility will suffer.
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
Barrington mate, don't you think you are being a bit hypocritical in your stance?  I cannot see where you are using cites except for that one link to the refugee council, which was really irrelevant to the topic at hand.
2301
Not at all.

I'm quite happy to provide links to where I have taken my information from. Then, I guess any link I provided was going to be called irrelevent by you (but only after someone else thought it was, I might add). You haven't provided any links for your claims/arguments, yet you are acusing me of being guilty of this as well.

Why are you calling my supposed stance into dis-repute over something I'm not even guilty of, but you are? That is hypocritical.

It is also another way of diverting attention away from you providing any evidence of your claims.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


For a while, my moderator spidey-senses have been more than a little bit tingly about you. So, I did a search on all of your forum posts, and found that all bar five of your 117 posts on RP are about federal politics (mostly anti-Labor/pro-Liberal); in The Lounge, and most within the last few months in the lead up to the announcement of the election date.

Generally; I'm happy for people to discuss their political opinions, but your's are far to frequent, and all too consistant. There's something very off about you. Everything about you screams "Liberal Stooge". I don't like stooges from ANY of the political parties trolling on these forums, and I am currently considering my options of what to do with your membership - not something I take lightly.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Cootanee, after analysing many of your arguments and trying to understand your logic, I can now understand why the Nigerian scammers are having so much success with Australians.
2301

LaughingRolling Eyes All too caught up it banging that can to take it all in.

I doubt you analysed them because that would be all too hard. Much easier if it's all or nothing - can't handle shades of grey???

Yep my logic isn't simplistic because there are various contributing factors, there is no one cause there is no one size fits all solution.

It's a significant humanitarian issue YES but hardly a REAL threat to a country of 23 million $17 billion economy. So some of us keep it in perspective.

Guess that leaves you back with the emotional taunts... Nigerian scammers Laughing. Where did you pick that up from? Are they coming here in boats too (I though they were plane people Surprised)
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Like any good journalist Barrington Womble never reveal your sources of information ever. We are just being journalists of a sort on here as this is a media and we are typing in responses, so asking for someone to provide links to something is really not an option at all.

What is it going to prove it will not stop the boat people only tough measures will do that and the gutless individuals in parliament here in Australia will not do this. It is about time it was done though and sooner or later it will have to be done. The USA just simply returns people to where they started from that try to cross their borders and no one blinks an eye so if they can do it what is wrong with us doing it, or do we the next time there is a war on in the Pacific just roll over and let whoever take this country for their own. The Japanese during WW2 almost made it so a precedent has been set. Australia should defend it's borders as much as possible and dissuade boat people from coming here, it is going to take a lot tougher people though than the bunch of wimps currently in Canberra and calling themselves a government. Close the borders to everyone unless you come in legally.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Like any good journalist Barrington Womble never reveal your sources of information ever. We are just being journalists of a sort on here as this is a media and we are typing in responses, so asking for someone to provide links to something is really not an option at all.

What is it going to prove it will not stop the boat people only tough measures will do that and the gutless individuals in parliament here in Australia will not do this. It is about time it was done though and sooner or later it will have to be done. The USA just simply returns people to where they started from that try to cross their borders and no one blinks an eye so if they can do it what is wrong with us doing it, or do we the next time there is a war on in the Pacific just roll over and let whoever take this country for their own. The Japanese during WW2 almost made it so a precedent has been set. Australia should defend it's borders as much as possible and dissuade boat people from coming here, it is going to take a lot tougher people though than the bunch of wimps currently in Canberra and calling themselves a government. Close the borders to everyone unless you come in legally.
David Peters

1. No argument stop the boat people. It's very dangerous for all concerned. Mind you are we stopping them, turning them around or putting them in 5000 tents on Nauru ? Confused.

2. Tough measures. Sounds great. TOUGHER - what do you have in mind????????????????

3. So the US has not accepted any refugees or asylum seekers Surprised Now my eyes are blinking Razz

4. The US has land borders with Canada and Mexico! Sort of makes turning people around physically easier Idea

5. OMG we're being invaded. Shocked They're just like by the Japanese in WW2 complete with aircraft carriers, planes and even rifles Crying or Very sad.

6. Yes we need to defend our borders. Hopefully those Super Hornets and Collins Class subs can turn them back. If not will have to call on the yanks again Laughing

Getting stupid enough for you Exclamation

Nah just more of that A + B = Z over the top paranoid #######  (I don't know what to politely call it Evil or Very Mad)
  Barrington Womble Photo Nazi

Location: Banned
David, he's not a good journalist. If you think he is, then he's got you bluffed.
Besides, this isn't a newpaper or pamphlet.

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