Dennis's METRO tweaking of the Rabbit Burrows under Melbourne

 
  usedtobered Locomotive Fireman

Hi all. I'm not sure what the announced new funding of $300m for 2014-15 will achieve, but the line to Fisherman' Bend deserves comment. With the demise of the assembly lines of GM and Toyota, lots of new residential development will almost certainly happen. If a new line is to go to FB, surely you would run it from Melbourne Central, have a station under the Stadium (whatever it is called these days), then come up to the surface somewhere on the other side of the Yarra? This would not be cheap, but I don't know if anything would be. What is the opinion of others on this Forum?

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Fisherman's Bend is a swamp.  There could be merit but the plan may ensure a longer journey from the east or west to the CBD. The key to transport planning now is faster journey times in and out of the city.  Putting a dog leg into the tunnel for Fisherman's Bend many not reduce travel times.  My thoughts.

Has anyone got a map of the proposed changes?

The Port of Melbourne does need rail access to the expanding area.  Could this also be achieved?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Fisherman's Bend should be served by a underground tunnel linking the CBD to Newport not South Yarra to South Kensington.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
reading the news item again napthine states they are creating capacity for freight. how is this the case?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
reading the news item again napthine states they are creating capacity for freight. how is this the case?
JimYarin

I take this as Napthine's acknowledgment that the road corridors from the South East to the CBD won't be able cope with the forecast demand.

Some mentioned construction of a Inland port has commenced at Lyndhurst ?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Some mentioned construction of a Inland port has commenced at Lyndhurst ?
Nightfire


With a wide road attached no doubt?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The existing Fishermans Bend alignment is useless.

Something like Turner St near the sewer alignment is better.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Perhaps this is further development of ptv's plan for the South Morang Line to extend via a new tunnel through Melbourne University to Flagstaff Station,  Southern Cross, Fisherman's Bend and join up with the Werribee Line.  The Sunbury Line could then use the track pair currently used by the Werribee Line through Southern Cross to Flinders Street, and perhaps then link with the Pakenham Line so 9-car trains would use the entire route.

Advantages
- provides a high-capacity link through Fisherman's Bend
- don't need to dig up Swanson Street
- a more direct route to Werribee and Williamstown

Disadvantages
- there could be tunnelling difficulties in the former swamp of Fisherman's Bend
- no extra capacity to the south-east, apart from a change from 6-car to 9-car trains
  comet4 Station Master

This whole business just smacks of anti-public transport spin from a road-obsessed government that cannot bring itself to admit that the Metro project is as much of a "game-changer" (to use Napthine's own words) for Melbourne as its damned "game-changing" road tunnel project is.

As for now abandoning the South Yarra option and taking the line to Fishermen's Bend instead...well how is that going to help with adding capacity in the Loop? Somehow I thought the Metro project is to provide additional track capacity to take trains from the Caulfield group through the CBD to Sunbury and Werribee? An alternative to the City Loop.

Minister Terry Muddler was on 774 this morning being grilled by Jon Faine, and appeared totally out of his depth as to why we can't tunnel under Swanston Street instead of cut and cover digging. Waffle about gradients etc. Didn't we build the whole City Loop by tunnelling? (except for the then Museum station site.) Didn't we build the Citylink and Eastlink road tunnels by tunnelling?  

Cities the world over can tunnel for their underground railways, London, New York, Moscow, Berlin, Tokyo, Delhi, Hong Kong, Singapore.......the list goes on.

Why can't we? God help us.
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
We are lazy thats why
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
There may be a sound technical or geological reason, but if there is, let's hear about it from an independent expert, not from a spin doctor.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There may be a sound technical or geological reason, but if there is, let's hear about it from an independent expert, not from a spin doctor.
Lad_Porter


Mulder was underwhelming on ABC radio earlier this week when probed by Jon Faine. A railway station at Parkville is long overdue.

Why Fishermans Bend? I think you might find a former premiere of this state (a most recent one) has a large interest in the proposed development in this part of Melbourne.

Will Daniel Andrews build the Metro Rail Tunnel in its recommended form? Yes or No? Mr. Andrews where are you?

A great comment on the age website:

Robert Doyle has the right idea and I agree with his support for the proposed alignment.
Napthine is just not up to the job as premier and is a puppet for the greedy road lobbyists.

They're pulling his strings and he just does not have the guts or leadership to stand up to them.

He will go down as our worst premier for scuttling the most important public infrastructure project, the Metro Rail Tunnel.
All users of public transport should vote him out of office at the next election.


Infrastructure Australia said that the rail tunnel was ready to start years ago but this government has caved in to greedy vested interests, such as the RACV, the trucking magnates and the toll road operators.


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/shifting-melbourne-metro-rail-tunnel-west-a-catastrophe-doyle-20140219-33067.html#ixzz2toDj6UUL
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Some else must have access to the same information I have seen:

So firstly they want to build the east-west link road tunnel before the metro rail tunnel. Now they want to build the rail tunnel, except curiously miss the areas of greatest need in order to service Fisherman's bend?! I'm sure this critical billion dollar decision so important for the future of our fair city wasn't influence by the developer mates of Napthine-Baillieu the new land at Fishermman's bend was sold to.

These developers are desperate to build quickly and a new link would support prices before the huge volume of apartments causes a glut. To skip having a link for what is the future of the city (the medical research hub), which is already there, in order to give access to swath of 'future' urban development financed by zero effective interest rates, is stupidity of the highest order.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/shifting-melbourne-metro-rail-tunnel-west-a-catastrophe-doyle-20140219-33067.html#ixzz2toHIfwhg


The word is out!
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Yeah there's no way that a Fisherman's Bend line can really be integrated into the system, unless they do something really crazy-expensive like build a line under the Yarra to Newport or something?

This is what happens when you have property developers become the most cashed-up, influential and politically active members of society... everything becomes about 'building value' rather than providing services.  Incidentally, where are the jobs going to come from for these new residents of Fisherman's Bend?  Given that nearly all the jobs that were in Fisherman's Bend are evaporating... I guess we'll just build more cafes.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yeah there's no way that a Fisherman's Bend line can really be integrated into the system, unless they do something really crazy-expensive like build a line under the Yarra to Newport or something?
don_dunstan


Imagine that. Building a rail tunnel from Newport to Parkville and to Doncaster via Fishermans Bend and the CBD.  West Werribee services could run via this and become Doncaster services.  Geelong trains via the CBD to Doncaster?  Vision.

Was the current RRL the best route?
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Imagine that. Building a rail tunnel from Newport to Parkville and to Doncaster via Fishermans Bend and the CBD. West Werribee services could run via this and become Doncaster services. Geelong trains via the CBD to Doncaster? Vision.

Was the current RRL the best route?
bevans

When you look at it on a map it's obviously designed to facilitate future expansion of housing in the western suburbs.

Talk of diverting the Metro via Fisherman's Bend is completely stupid and is obviously being driven by property spruiks.  Forget about a deep-level tunnel to Newport, you're looking at tens of billions.  

Look at Docklands, it's nowhere near full and they're already talking of multiple high-rises in an industrial area much further from the city. Makes no sense.  Where are the jobs coming from to support all this new density and population?
  Plan B Junior Train Controller

Fisherman's bend is close to the city.  Keep the rail money for the more important areas like Doncaster and Rowville.  Put a  junction on the Port Melbourne tram line and send a new route down Williamstown Rd then into Todd Road over the freeway at a later date.
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
When you look at it on a map it's obviously designed to facilitate future expansion of housing in the western suburbs.

Talk of diverting the Metro via Fisherman's Bend is completely stupid and is obviously being driven by property spruiks. Forget about a deep-level tunnel to Newport, you're looking at tens of billions.

Look at Docklands, it's nowhere near full and they're already talking of multiple high-rises in an industrial area much further from the city. Makes no sense. Where are the jobs coming from to support all this new density and population?
don_dunstan


so fishermans bend is a dead duck?

maybe the rail line is designed to lift the prospects of the development at the cost of other users and travelers. victoria according to news announcements has spent $49m on the plan already which was the number 1 project for victoria at infrastructure australia.  what went wrong?

this is a delaying tactic by a dead government in an attempt to hold off the decision until after the state election.

not discussed are the alleged benefits to freight should the metro tunnel be constructed.  if the metro tunnel is required for the tullamarine airport line this project has been set back by 20 years.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Article in AGE claims also looking at taking Metro under Russell St instead of Swanston St. The cut and cover scenario (Berlin Wall) is a bit dramatic as realistically only 3 - 4 blocks would be affected at any one time. Government just looking for excuses to delay, not do anything .  The older of us recall that Melbourne Central station was built by cut and cover, and Singapore and Hong Kong are always building new lines with city blocks closed off for 1 - 2 years .  So bit of a smokescreen me thinks .

Sounds like Government trying to give impression of doing something while it looks at alternative route options, the end result in 2 years time will no doubt be lots of $ spent assessing other route options, but still no actual route chosen or construction started .

Napthine should note that Brumby lost the last election through lack of interest and action on public transport.  Napthine could well go down the same way if he does not show some real commitment to public transport and fast .

Also both Napthine and Mulder are claiming RRL as a  Liberal transport initiative.  FACT :  RRL was assessed by Infrastructure Australia as high priority, and funded jointly by Federal and State Labour Governments .
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
so fishermans bend is a dead duck?

maybe the rail line is designed to lift the prospects of the development at the cost of other users and travelers. victoria according to news announcements has spent $49m on the plan already which was the number 1 project for victoria at infrastructure australia. what went wrong?

this is a delaying tactic by a dead government in an attempt to hold off the decision until after the state election.

not discussed are the alleged benefits to freight should the metro tunnel be constructed. if the metro tunnel is required for the tullamarine airport line this project has been set back by 20 years.
JimYarin

Not that it's a dead duck but it's just a really strange location to divert a contiguous metro line; it's kind of on a peninsula out there and although relatively close to the city I think it would be better served by a light rail spur at a much lower cost. A diversion of the proposed metro out there is (as myself and others have implied) a bit of a property booster thing.

In the 1880's our country's first electric tram line was built between Box Hill and a look-out at Doncaster exclusively for the purpose of flogging off orchard blocks in the the then rural locale; building PT to sell property is nothing new. It's just that a hugely expensive metro line (a billion dollars a km someone said?) when a tram spur would suffice.

It's all just a diversion as yourself and others have already said; they simply don't want to build it, that's all.  There's no prospect of anything being approved in Melbourne for the foreseeable future - all our money has to go into the East-West; that's even more expensive that then metro at a projected cost of (maybe) $2 billion per km.
  usedtobered Locomotive Fireman

LOL. In Melbourne forum we are united in two things - love of trains and cynicism. And all that despite (I'm guessing) a broad range of ages and economic circumstances. How good is that!
  beanzs27 Assistant Commissioner

Why can't the tunnel go under Elizabeth st instead of Swanston Street?
  Some rail man Junior Train Controller

Location: CIA Headquarters in Washington D.C
Why can't the tunnel go under Elizabeth st instead of Swanston Street?
beanzs27

They just rebuilt the tram tracks there, that would waste more money and time. Deeper tunnel is better even if it has to be depper than the NWRL in Sydney.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
And sorry, but I thought one of the other key aims of the Metro tunnel was to reduce demand on Swanston St / St. Kilda Road trams? And why aren't the clowns in PTV arguing this case? Although to be honest they're probably just being ignored by a government desperate to find any excuse not to invest in public transport...
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Imagine that. Building a rail tunnel from Newport to Parkville and to Doncaster via Fishermans Bend and the CBD. West Werribee services could run via this and become Doncaster services. Geelong trains via the CBD to Doncaster? Vision.
bevans

Where do you get this West Werribee service Idea from ?

There are no station planed at West Werribee, the whole area Is farm land.

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