Napthine's Grand Dandy Plans

 
  712M Chief Commissioner

Whoever thinks that Clyde and Clyde North is well served by buses has obviously never tried to travel there by bus. That's because there are none except for the 796 that runs twice a day on school days only. A large part of Cranbourne East is also without a bus service as the government hasn't bothered to extend the route 898 as the area developed.

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  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That's not an argument for extending to Cranbourne East.

Patronage to cost = very low
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Whoever thinks that Clyde and Clyde North is well served by buses has obviously never tried to travel there by bus. That's because there are none except for the 796 that runs twice a day on school days only. A large part of Cranbourne East is also without a bus service as the government hasn't bothered to extend the route 898 as the area developed.
712M

If that's the case then wouldn't it be better to upgrade the bus service than extending the train line?

The bus system has the greatest potential to carry more patronage given how inadequate it is in many areas.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
- 25 new high-capacity trains (which I assume will be of X'Trap models).
jdekorte

That's 25 more X'Traps for the Lilydale line to free up the last of the 30 year old Comeng fleet for the south side. This is Melbourne, after all. Laughing
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
Some pollie on 3AW yesterday said the order would be put out to tender and that they would only run on the Dandenong corridor; so not maybe not X'Traps. By high capacity I read more doors and longitudinal seating. Probably not going to be longer as there's no room in the Loop and it would be expensive if not impossible to make the loop stations longer.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Some pollie on 3AW yesterday said the order would be put out to tender and that they would only run on the Dandenong corridor; so not maybe not X'Traps. By high capacity I read more doors and longitudinal seating. Probably not going to be longer as there's no room in the Loop and it would be expensive if not impossible to make the loop stations longer.
alstom_888m

Well if they are suspected to be X'Trap variants they might be this high-capacity model called the X'Trapolis Mega of which several variants are being built around the world, including South Africa. Not a bad looking train - more doors and longitudinal seating as you suspected. Maybe a variant will be built in Australia.

http://www.alstom.com/transport/products-and-services/trains/suburban-train-xtrapolis/

If this put out to tender I would hope that Bombardier would contribute.  Here is a picture of the Bombardier A-City units being tested in Adelaide. The SA government ordered 22 three-car sets. They are based on the VLocity design and being built at Bombardier Dandenong: http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/RR/rail_revitalisation/new_trains_and_trams
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
Probably not going to be longer as there's no room in the Loop and it would be expensive if not impossible to make the loop stations longer.
alstom_888m

Loop platforms are 160 metres long. Current suburban trains are all a little shorter than 144 metres long for a six car set.

Harris "BLUE" trains were longer than the current suburban trains, when in eight car consists (v seven car consists which were shorter), and these ran through the loop.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
Loop platforms are 160 metres long. Current suburban trains are all a little shorter than 144 metres long for a six car set.

Harris "BLUE" trains were longer than the current suburban trains, when in eight car consists (v seven car consists which were shorter), and these ran through the loop.
fogcv

So the "new' trains can be 160 metres long with only end drivers cabs.  What would be the maximum carriage length?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
So I guess this Government worked out they could sink the line from Grange Road level crossing to Poath Road level crossing knocking out two very complained about level crossings at Koornang Road and Murrumbeena Road.

I would assume a Springvale grade separation type job would be undertaken at both Carnegie and Murrumbeena at the same time (rail closure down to the absolute minimum, like night works and limited weekend shuts)

Clayton largely the same thing but with a lot more open area to play with.
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

This is another road project masquerading as a rail project. It won't enable one extra service to run and any extra train capacity (i.e. removing seats and/or cabs) will be gobbled up in increased patronage before a sod is turned. The new signalling idea is idiotic. Only the extra 25 trains will have the on board technology and these won't be delivered until 2019 anyway. And remember, these trains were supposed to "fix" the Frankston line as well. So either they plan a massive reduction in peak services or someone can't up add up (or they are lying).

Up until privatisation, every train was designed to run throughout the whole system. Since then, we have made a virtue out of the inability of new rolling stock to run over the whole network. This latest announcement only adds to the problem.


Unless the Caulfield to Dandenong corridor gains at least one extra track, there will be no real increase in capacity at all. Of course, it is nice that these level crossings are removed, but that benefits cars, and yes buses, and not train passengers.


From a government that gave the impression (those of us who knew which was up always knew it was a trick) that they build new lines to Rowville, Doncaster, Tullamarine and elsewhere, this latest announcement is simply designed to get public transport off the political agenda. As long as people (who should know better) refer to it as rail project, then the government will be well satisfied.
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
Grade separation WILL add rail services (eventually).  PTV has said that on the Dandy line, during the peak hours, the booms are down for about 40 minutes out of 60.  They do not dare add services as the political outcry would be too great.  They can lengthen trains or make them 'high capacity' more easily without inconveniencing motorists any more than now.  With grade separation, they can add additional services and the motorists will neither know nor care.
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
This is another road project masquerading as a rail project. Any extra train capacity (i.e. removing seats and/or cabs) will be gobbled up in increased patronage before a sod is turned.
TedHanson

Currently 14 peak suburban services will go to 18 peak suburban services with this project.

25 "High Capacity" trains to hold 871 passengers c.f. 798 theoretical now (or > 798 actual "crush load" now)

798 x 14 = 11172
871 x 18 = 15678
                  4506 extra passengers (rounded off to 4500 in the press release)

Looks like another Road Project masquerading as a Rail Project.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Currently 14 peak suburban services will go to 18 peak suburban services with this project.

25 "High Capacity" trains to hold 871 passengers c.f. 798 theoretical now (or > 798 actual "crush load" now)

798 x 14 = 11172
871 x 18 = 15678
4506 extra passengers (rounded off to 4500 in the press release)

Looks like another Road Project masquerading as a Rail Project.
fogcv

Aren't they supposed to carry 1100 passengers?
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
Aren't they supposed to carry 1100 passengers?
railblogger

I used the figures used in the press release ...

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/9327-massive-rail-investment-to-benefit-millions-of-victorians.html

... and the number of trains arriving at Flinders Street station between 8am and 9am now, i.e. 14, to calculate 871 passengers per train.

I had seen 1000 earlier but that was obviously rounded up to the nearest 1000 to make it look a bit more attention grabbing.

If you go back to last week's/month's/whatever's "plan", these trains could hold 1800 passengers and would run though the "imaginary" metro rail tunnel with 230 metre platforms.
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
The new signalling idea is idiotic. Only the extra 25 trains will have the on board technology and these won't be delivered until 2019 anyway.
TedHanson

The signalling idea is good but the application of it is poor.

New signalling technology will be on the VLine trains as well as the 25 new trains.

METROL will rule out as far as Caulfield. My guess is that you could achieve the "target" of 18 trains per hour out as far as Oakleigh on the current signalling - if you simply expressed Caulfield to Oakleigh and ran rail replacement buses in parallel. That "fixes" THREE of four level crossings because all trains now cross the three level crossings in less time.

At Oakleigh, simply run 18 "901 Smart Buses" per hour to Rowville.
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
Unless the Caulfield to Dandenong corridor gains at least one extra track, there will be no real increase in capacity at all.
TedHanson

Two additional, grade separated, express tracks between Oakleigh and Dandenong could be used to significantly shorten journey times for "outer fringe" commuters.

Capacity will come from (real) high capacity trains, stopping (only) at major stations, on dedicated tracks, in conjunction with modern signalling.

Up until privatisation, every train was designed to run throughout the whole system.
TedHanson

Nope. It was incompatible from the very start. i.e. in 1854. (This is quite a common situation, in many parts of the world, however.)

e.g. In 1919, the first broad gauge electric trains ran between Sandringham and Essendon/Flemington Racecourse. You changed at Spencer Street to a broad gauge steam train to get from Spencer Street to Albury where you changed to a standard gauge steam train to get to Sydney. Prior to 1883, there was a coach between Wodonga and Albury. After 1962, there was standard gauge through to Spencer Street (and the trains were probably diesel powered by then).
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

If this put out to tender I would hope that Bombardier would contribute.  Here is a picture of the Bombardier A-City units being tested in Adelaide. The SA government ordered 22 three-car sets. They are based on the VLocity design and being built at Bombardier Dandenong:


There has been no comment yet on the Victorian forum about the Adelaide trains.  I tried one last week while in Adelaide. It rode like a Siemens and seemed to have acceleration like an Xtrap.  It was quieter than both on the inside and outside.  It handled a rough section of track MUCH better than an Xtrap (which are quite uncomfortable on tracks that are in need of or undergoing repair).  I'm sure any other train supplier would be worried Bombardier would get the next Melbourne order.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/119814135@N07/13025523695/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/119814135@N07/13025911764/

The last photo was taken last week at Adelaide's new Showgrounds station.  Its $16m budget seemed to buy a lot more station than in Victoria.
  Mr. Lane Chief Commissioner

Excellent, we're getting somewhere finally.

Next step, connect the stoppers from Dandenong to Oakleigh through Chadstone to East Malvern...

Quad from Oakleigh to Dandenong to serve outer reaches and Vline...

Bomb three stations b/w Caulfield and Oakleigh and run expresses via two tracks here to combine with Frankston express at Caulfield.

Then you've got a real metro system. (PS. Screw Rowville, the idea needs to die.)
ZH836301

By "Bomb" you mean remove? Removing Carnegie, Murrubeena and Hugesdale makes the system more "Metro" how? Metros tend to have closely spaced stations (and lines!) that are within walking distances of the patrons that use them.

Running Dandenong stoppers though to Glen Waverly? Is there any more room for these on the Burnley group? I don't think this is a good idea. The Burnley group already has 4 lines. Leave it alone.

Quadding the Dandenong line is pointless unless the new track pair ultimately goes all the way through the CBD. This is how it should be done:

1) Two new express tracks from Dandeonong to just south of South Yarra station around the South Yarra siding reserve. Don't have room? Tunnel or just buy the land and clear a path for it. Not cheap, but that's the deal. Stops are probably only needed at Oakleigh and Caufield along the way.

2) The current Dandenong stopper tracks then go underground through the new Metro rather than through South Yarra.

3) The express tracks route through South Yarra. V/Line trains and Metro expresses continue through Richmond just as they do now.

If this line has any hope of being useful for a future port at Hastings (if it is ever needed...) then it has to be laid with dual gauge sleepers.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69

Quadding the Dandenong line is pointless unless the new track pair ultimately goes all the way through the CBD. This is how it should be done:

1) Two new express tracks from Dandeonong to just south of South Yarra station around the South Yarra siding reserve. Don't have room? Tunnel or just buy the land and clear a path for it. Not cheap, but that's the deal. Stops are probably only needed at Oakleigh and Caufield along the way.
Mr. Lane

Why not run it via Domain, past the Alfred hospital and underneath Dandenong road then?
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

Valvegear has the correct answer on the previous page, and it seems as though most on here are believing this election stunt.

Today Natphine announced a $2 Billion dollar upgrade of the Dandenong rail corridor
jdekorte

Urrr let me guess, runs through marginal seats??

Today Natphine announced a $2 Billion dollar upgrade of the Dandenong rail corridor.

The basics of todays announcement include:
- The removal of level crossings at Koornang Rd, Murrumbeena Rd, Clayton Rd & Centre Rd. (with provision to remove all the other level crossings)
- Associated rebuilding of Carnegie, Murrumbeena & Clayton Stations
- Upgraded signalling.
- A new train maintenance yard at Pakenham East
- 25 new high-capacity trains (which I assume will be of X'Trap models).

Construction is scheduled to start next year and continue to 2019.
jdekorte

Must be an election? Nuh OUR employees "acting" as politicians wouldn't do that, would they now?

So if Napthine is serious, since his Liberals have been elected, then why didn't the Liberals start these projects while they are in power, instead of just trying to buy votes and making them election promises? And the same no matter what party is elected.
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
Valvegear has the correct answer on the previous page, and it seems as though most on here are believing this election stunt.

Urrr let me guess, runs through marginal seats??
Newcastle Express

No, but the level crossings selected would be used by people who drive cars and live and vote in the marginal electorates on the Frankston Line and Glen Waverley Line.

From the press release: Capacity boost will benefit 4,500 peak hour rail commuters AND more than 995,500 road commuters.

This is a Road Project.

And I couldn't help but notice them also say they're about to promise the same Southland station they promised last time around...
HardSleeper

Heard Mulder on the radio the other day say there was some privately owned land that they want to use and this was causing a delay. Hello, never heard of compulsory acquisition? - oops, I forgot this one isn't a road project.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland


From the press release: Capacity boost will benefit 4,500 peak hour rail commuters AND more than 995,500 road commuters.

This is a Road Project.


fogcv

Where does the 995,500 road commuters number come from ?

Or did some Government spin doctor dream It up to rise eyebrows ?
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
Where does the 995,500 road commuters number come from ?

Or did some Government spin doctor dream It up to rise eyebrows ?
Nightfire

"
Massive rail investment to benefit millions of Victorians"
minus 4,500 rail commuters = 995,500 road commuters.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
TedHanson, half-arsed third rail increasing capacity?  Yeah, right.

Go on.  How are these new trains not increasing capacity?
  fogcv Chief Train Controller

Location: Platform 11 Flinders Street
So if Napthine is serious, since his Liberals have been elected, then why didn't the Liberals start these projects while they are in power, instead of just trying to buy votes and making them election promises? And the same no matter what party is elected.
Newcastle Express

Daniel Andrews (State Opposition Leader) recently promised to sell the Port of Melbourne to fund the removal of 50 Level Crossings.

Denis Napthine had an infrastructure proposal from a private consortium sitting in a draw for some works on the Dandenong rail corridor.

Denis Napthine pulled that proposal out of the drawer, dusted it off, and promised to sell the Port of Melbourne to fund it together with some "planning" to remove the remaining level crossings.

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Subscribers: Boss, Edith, fogcv, jdekorte, Nightfire, rbalse

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