New trains for dandenong corridor lack australian content

 
  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia


why not use a variation of the adelaide emu? those a local to victoria?

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  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Where is the government planning on building these new trains ?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

This project is an unsolicited bid by a consortium including  MTM  .  So no doubt the Consortium will go to tender worldwide and see what offers  ideally off the shelf that meets the spec .
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Any news on how many seats each carriage will have ?  High-capacity trains in other parts of the world sacrifice seats for standing space, or will these be 9-car trains as per the ptv plan ? If the capacity is achieved by minimal seating, it's a long way to stand between Dandenong and Flinders Street. Are the locals aware that the new trains may mean they might be standing nearly 2 hours a day ?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Any news on how many seats each carriage will have ?
mm42

I'm not sure how many seats they will have, but I was certain they would resemble trans of other systems...
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
We need to ensure we are getting value for money.

Australian made should not be considered if we could get vastly more for less - one can accept a slight difference, but a major added cost, no.

In the latter case you are robbing Peter to pay Paul (you could instead buy more trains, run more services, and employ more drivers).
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
We need to ensure we are getting value for money.

Australian made should not be considered if we could get vastly more for less - one can accept a slight difference, but a major added cost, no.
"ZH836301"


Unless they're actually better. See well built nice riding E Class trams vs cheap, poorly riding, badly air conditioned rubbish C and D class trams. I would have thought that the Adelaide EMU design will be proven and hence shouldn't need much development funds by the time the 9 car sets are needed, especially given they themselves are based on the VLociraptors. As I've said before, just cut an extra doorway into the Adelaide design and keep building them.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
You say it as if the rest of the world can't make trains.

We're a speck in the ocean.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
You say it as if the rest of the world can't make trains.
"ZH836301"


Well I mean it as if we only seem to buy (at least relatively recently) the cheapest and nastiest rolling stock available. Hopefully that won't be the case...
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Well I mean it as if we only seem to buy (at least relatively recently) the cheapest and nastiest rolling stock available. Hopefully that won't be the case...
HardSleeper

I don't think that's a problem with manufacturing in the rest of the world. I think the problem there lies with the one writing the cheque.
  frezno Junior Train Controller

People standing from Dandenong to Flinders Street? Are we really expecting to be able to fill these 9 or whatever car trains to the point of standing when they will be running at ridiculously close intervals?
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
People standing from Dandenong to Flinders Street? Are we really expecting to be able to fill these 9 or whatever car trains to the point of standing when they will be running at ridiculously close intervals?
frezno

The frequency of trains will not increase until there are grade separations all the way from Caulfield to Dandenong. Both the Minister and the DoT are concerned about how long the booms are down during the peak period at major road crossings.  There are too many voters in sensitive seats impacted.  At the rate at which level crossings are replaced, it could be two more electoral cycles before peak period trains run to a more frequent service.  That said, reducing the headway with better signalling might alleviate some of the problem.
  Braddo Deputy Commissioner

Location: Narre Warren
Surely if Bombardier were able to manufacture trains for V/Line at an acceptable price they can do the same for Metro?
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Surely if Bombardier were able to manufacture trains for V/Line at an acceptable price they can do the same for Metro?
Braddo

Not necessarily, different trains, different costs, different markets.
  ewokracing Locomotive Fireman

Unless they're actually better. See well built nice riding E Class trams vs cheap, poorly riding, badly air conditioned rubbish C and D class trams. I would have thought that the Adelaide EMU design will be proven and hence shouldn't need much development funds by the time the 9 car sets are needed, especially given they themselves are based on the VLociraptors. As I've said before, just cut an extra doorway into the Adelaide design and keep building them.
HardSleeper


Glad to see someone else thinks the C and D class trams are terrible. I lived in Northcote for a bit and used to think it would be nice to have the new trams on the 86 route (this was back in 2005-2006) to work. Then I moved to Balwyn and caught the 109 route to the city. Only times I've ever had motion sickness in a vehicle was in those C and D class trams. They're appallingly bad compared to the B class. Proof that not everything new is better!
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Then I moved to Balwyn and caught the 109 route to the city. Only times I've ever had motion sickness in a vehicle was in those C and D class trams. They're appallingly bad compared to the B class. Proof that not everything new is better!
ewokracing

What the route 48! The C Class trams shake Like they are going to derail
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The way the C classes bounce around the track, it's like watching a Japanese Mario Kart player. Smile

Route 48 is to North Balwyn. The 109 goes via Balwyn itself (where Woolworths and McDonald's are located) on its way to/from Box Hill. C classes do however make an occasional appearance on the 48 as well, but more often than not it's an A class (with much better seats). An A class on the 109 is a bit of a rarity though, likewise the 96 (last time I was in the city I saw A1 258 on the 96).
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
I've been on A's and C's on the route 48. I rarely remember going fast enough for a rough ride in a C on that line. Maybe at lunch time on high street Kew section.
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
Not necessarily, different trains, different costs, different markets.
ZH836301

The reality is of course they could.
Just built Adelaides...Been building emus for a long while here

Nahh..lets just give all the money to O/S
  X'Trapolis-904M Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I've been on A's and C's on the route 48. I rarely remember going fast enough for a rough ride in a C on that line. Maybe at lunch time on high street Kew section.
Camster

it looked were going to derail
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
The reality is of course they could.
Just built Adelaides...Been building emus for a long while here

Nahh..lets just give all the money to O/S

So without any comparison you know they'd offer the best deal.


You'd make a great business operator.


And by the way, Bombardier is Canadian, where do you think their money goes...
  SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
So without any comparison you know they'd offer the best deal.


You'd make a great business operator.


And by the way, Bombardier is Canadian, where do you think their money goes...
ZH836301

you're tiring///idiotic eaven


the question..you ignored was, can they be built her.of course they can. Do you argue they can't ?

Bombardier are of course a WORLD company ( based in Canada as you say ) / They have a manufacturing base here unlike Siemens .

The best deal for Aussies as a whole is a bit beyond the obvious i.e its not just the bottom line price per unit its whats best for this country.Do you not think this ? is this beyond you as well.

youre not really very bright are you
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Seriously?

a/ You're implying that because Bombardier can offer a reasonable deal on one item, they must also offer a reasonable deal on another, different item.

This claim is unfounded.

b/ You also seem to assume jobs created in Australia trumps cost considerations in all circumstances.

Also unfounded.

Paying more for Australian built trains only makes sense if the extra jobs created outweighs the worth of the extra money spent (in say creating more jobs elsewhere).

This is not something that can be known before tenders are put out - is it that hard to understand?
  Edith Chief Commissioner

Location: Line 1 from Porte de Vincennes bound for Bastille station
If I recall correctly, as part of the 2010 pre-election promise, the coalition offered some additional Xtrapolis train sets and then with deliveries commencing in 2014, some new generation high capacity electric trains.  A couple of years back the DoT was talking with vendors and making preliminary designs.  They had considered up to 9 cars per train and were talking about six-car sets with the intermediate drivers cabins removed and more space in the passenger area for the same overall length.  We got the Xtraps and then, instead of new generation, we got more Xtraps.

Same as with the Metro tunnel, when the time came for action, the action was to rethink the action.
  pandafalcon Station Staff

A couple of items to note, rolling stock wise:

1) Dandenong - Pakenham line upgrade was an unsolicited bid from MTM, but not the next generation rolling stock. Comeng life expiry starts in 2016-2017 based on date of entry to service and a standard 35-40 year life span of rolling stock unless a proper life extension is conducted. So the options would be to:

   a) replace Comeng rolling stock completely with new fleet, and;

   b) life-extend Comeng to provide short term coverage.

   I would imagine that the Department of Transport and its successors would have been working on some sort of project to bring new fleet to Melbourne, a la VLocities.

2) Bombardier have existing Australian contracts with Victoria and South Australia, but it doesn't mean that they are the only suppliers in the Australian market, limited as it is. EDI Downer, with CSR Changchun, brought the Waratahs to Sydney. While Bombardier would have an advantage in having existing rolling stock designs and existing contracts, it wouldn't be automatic to say that they will get it.  It was just expedient to extend the VLocity contract to provide new rolling stock, in the same manner as extending the Alstom X'Trapolis contract.

3) As a slight extension to the above situation with EDI Downer and the Waratah Fleet, this project has significantly gone over budget by a few billion dollars, at last examinen. I don't know if the procurement of Melbourne's latest fleet additions to the tram network or the rail network have gone over budget, but there are inherent risks whether one decides to build locally or internationally.  The key is the contractual position taken by the vendor and purchaser, and also the checks and balances throughout the process to ensure procurement proceeds as smoothly as possible.

4) I would imagine that rolling stock design would be something that would take a little longer than just taking something off the shelf. The Comeng replacement requirement would be at least 1:1 of existing fleet, if not more. The original Comeng fleet was 95.5 six-car sets, now down to something like 93 after accidents and write offs. I would imagine that, moving forward, you'd want more than that number of six-car sets. Further to this, I would imagine that, while it would be fantastic to go to a HK metro style seating arrangement for crush load numbers, it would be unpalatable for commuters travelling in from Sunbury or Pakenham! I would hesitate to guess, given the Siemens and X'Trapolis fleet are 2 x 2 seating, that this would be the way forward.

5) Nine car trainsets are a great idea if the existing infrastructure could readily support such an extension. I believe that would be some major constraints at some stations on the network, including just on the Pakenham and Cranbourne Lines, that would create more hassle than its worth.

6) An item of note that benefits future procurement of rolling stock is that it appears that, moving forward, that Victoria will follow a UK Transport for London model. The state body does the main work in developing the scope of the project and outline, the operator and supplier deliver in conjunction with each other (well something like that). That's not necessarily a bad structure for procurement. TfL are proceeding with a massive order for Thameslink and a slightly less massive order for CrossRail using a similar methodology.

Just some thoughts. Consider also that Auckland have procured CAF rolling stock for their electrification, and Wellington have procured Hyundai/Rotem rolling stock to replace their 50+ year old fleet. Beyond Bombardier, Alstom, Siemens, EDI Downer and UGL Rail there are a lot of potential suppliers out there.

Coupled to this is the desire to provide a form of in-cab signalling or tech similar to ETCS/ERTMS/CTBC for Dandenong/Pakenham, and suppliers would seek to enable a seamless integration between rolling stock (existing and new), lineside infrastructure, and rail operations. The potential scope for the project could easily dwarf the amount of money currently assigned to it.

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