... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...

Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border

Mike.

...to hell with our children's taxation levels, lets not just spend their inheritance, but also their income today.

... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...

Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border

Mike.

When did I ever say I liked Napthine?  I'm just saying that doubling state debt isn't sustainable. And it isn't.

Clearly the heat in Dubai is frying your brain Shane.

I was writing about the non-connectivity between significant NSW towns and their nearest regional centre...and I made that abundantly clear

You dragged politics into it...I didn't mention politics...I stated facts.

Nowhere did I mention Sydney

Hillston has NO bus service with its local regional centre which is Griffith...that was the reason I raised it as a prime example of the lack of REGIONAL PT in NSW.

Hillston is also the administrative centre of the Shire of Carrathool, therefore regionally, the locality has some importance, yet regards PT, it is an isolated community.

https://www.carrathool.nsw.gov.au/


Harcourt station was CLOSED under the Thompson Liberal government on 4/10/1981

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_Ministry

https://www.google.com/search?q=when+did+Harcourt+station+close&oq=when+did+Harcourt+station+close&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.10307j1j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Simple facts that took less than a minute to research.

I've presented facts that show NSW regional PT is way LESS comprehensive that Victoria's..yet you keep citing examples from the OTHER SIDE of the Great Dividing Range.
This discussion is about regional PT and to me, regional as is the case in Victoria...and the deficient examples I've already provided are also on the other side of the Great Dividing Range, both in Victoria AND in NSW...yes that big space that people who live on the other side of that mountain range don't realise exists.

Time to stop showing your lack of experience about this subject Shane...sorry man, this one, I've won through my greater local knowledge.

Mike.

Harcourt, I'll pay that as I didn't double check my history.

The rest, again your are drawing very low bows and completely ignoring geography of the state.

My reference to the other side of the range is because the other side of the range beyond the western slopes is twice the size of Vic with less people than greater Geelong and you want to run frequent bus services from no where to no where. You say you have one because of your greater knowledge, no you haven't won anything and this isn't a competition, its about common sense. You are also not listening.

You want to run a bus service from a town of 1500 over 100km to another town. Where is the demand, what is the cost of doing this.

Vic is so small with a reasonable population spread over most of the state that such buses are not completely impractical. If the local council thinks this Hillston bus service is going to be so well used, then they should fund it themselves and then use the numbers to seek state funding. The so called commuter bus between Wagga and Albury failed to draw more than an average of something like 6 people per trip.

The shire of Carrathol has a population of 2800 people, half of which live on farms.

Before crapping on about your local knowledge and Vic running buses to every toilet block in Vic, perhaps you should
1) Get out a map
2) Get out the last census
3) Calculate the cost of running such a service and ask yourself, who will be paying for it.
4) Look at your states deteriorating financial situation
5) Understand that despite Steve Bracks commuting on the Ballarat line as a kid, he would not have done the upgrade without someone elses money. And while I support the RFR project, remember the ridership explosion you offer refer to is basically increasing from a mini bus load to a bus or 2 load of people.

To be honest to help some of the regional communities, I think the govt is best to offer so many Uber rides per year to the elderly, provided the person pays the first say $10 of the trip.

Mike clearly is ambidextrous, currently Sword Fighting, with a Sword in each hand...........the don V's Mike dual has been quite for a fair while, both are obviously fully re-loaded with ammo....again

BigShunter.

I think you are wasting your time on this RTT. It is interesting to see how a thread about the old vinelander train has vinelander staunchly defending his labor government and regional transport in Victoria instead of talking about the vinelander train.

It is amazing that the Vinelander service which would probably be the only true regional rail service in the state doesn't actually exist and yet Victorians continue to blab on about how good their supposed regional rail service is. What Victoria has is an intercity service to small cities and towns relatively close to Melbourne.

I am curios how he travels through NSW so often and doesn't get the extremely remote landscape that is western NSW. These towns don't have bus and train services because for the most part there isn't anybody to use those buses and trains. It is clear when you cross the border what state you are in. When you cross in to NSW in the west there is nothing but tumbleweeds.

Shane, I'm sure the good folk of Hillston will applaud your insults referring to their town as you have.

Guess what

It's not all about economics

It's about quality of life, connectivity and supporting rural communities as we have done, to a very large degree in Victoria. NSW also enjoys a larger population than Victoria, therefore it can more easily spread the costs of around of services such as this.

However...I'm certain, if you approached them the good people of the regional shires of NSW would be happy to pack up and at great expense to themselves, move holus-bolus to the sea side of the Great Dividing Range.
That would be so economically helpful to the NSW government.

This is my last comment regards this matter and you have clearly missed the point of what is going on in Victoria.

Mike.

Mike clearly is ambidextrous, currently Sword Fighting, with a Sword in each hand...........the don V's Mike dual has been quite for a fair while, both are obviously fully re-loaded with ammo....again

BigShunter.

Trains are kaput in Australia over distances of 3-400 km, they can't compete with air over that distance. People who are time-sensitive also prefer air and the rest either drive themselves or take buses. Maybe that will change in time but probably not within the next ten or twenty years.

Shane, I'm sure the good folk of Hillston will applaud your insults referring to their town as you have.

Guess what

It's not all about economics

It's about quality of life, connectivity and supporting rural communities as we have done, to a very large degree in Victoria. NSW also enjoys a larger population than Victoria, therefore it can more easily spread the costs of around of services such as this.

However...I'm certain, if you approached them the good people of the regional shires of NSW would be happy to pack up and at great expense to themselves, move holus-bolus to the sea side of the Great Dividing Range.
That would be so economically helpful to the NSW government.

This is my last comment regards this matter and you have clearly missed the point of what is going on in Victoria.

Mike.

Mike,
The day you believe its not about economics then you are not living in the real world. Economics pays for everything, currently you are living under a govt that seems to feel that your next generation will fund your generation so yes it maybe hard for you to comprehend this.

Ask yourself why doesn't Mildura have a rail service, economics? How many ALP govts have to run Vic before you understand that and this from someone (me) who actually supports its return.

Your theory on NSW population can afford more than Vic is a crock of $hit. The state is also 3 x the size. By chance I'm looking up the XPT timetable for a personal trip, Number of stops to Casino, 22. How many stops to Mildura? At the end of the day someone has to pay for a bus to Hillston and if the local council won't support it, why should anyone else?

As I said before, the electorate of Murry is not much smaller than Vic with around 100k people, the biggest electorate in the state is more than the size of Vic and you expect everyone to have have a bus service to their local "biggest town". You need to get real.

Quality of life is also about being realistic with ones self and acknowledge the limitations living in certain locations.  A once a week return bus from Hillston is unlikely to align with doctors appointments, shopping etc, its more for people travelling to and from an area with a longer plan.

The reason most people live in these more remote communities is due to mostly agriculture and due to technology changes in the industry and the supporting industries the need for so many to live in the more remote locations has rapidly declined and why there is often no longer a bank, shop, rail service, govt agency etc etc and with it the closure of schools, post office, police station etc etc.  The communities that have failed to reinvent themselves are dying and a weekly bus isn't going to change that.

... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...

Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border

Mike.

...to hell with our children's taxation levels, lets not just spend their inheritance, but also their income today.

For you Shane...and our friend Don over in AA land in SA.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/daniel-andrews-defends-ballooning-state-debt/11156662

Mike.

I am curios how he travels through NSW so often and doesn't get the extremely remote landscape that is western NSW. These towns don't have bus and train services because for the most part there isn't anybody to use those buses and trains. It is clear when you cross the border what state you are in. When you cross in to NSW in the west there is nothing but tumbleweeds.

And wild goats (I'm told by a Mildura friend)

I am curios how he travels through NSW so often and doesn't get the extremely remote landscape that is western NSW. These towns don't have bus and train services because for the most part there isn't anybody to use those buses and trains. It is clear when you cross the border what state you are in. When you cross in to NSW in the west there is nothing but tumbleweeds.

And wild goats (I'm told by a Mildura friend)

I've seen lots of goats between Mildura and Broken Hill, possibly more between Hillston and Cobar. In my experience the goats are much more clever than the roos and emus - they seem to stay off the road. There are also farmed goats.

... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...

Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border

Mike.

...to hell with our children's taxation levels, lets not just spend their inheritance, but also their income today.

For you Shane...and our friend Don over in AA land in SA.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/daniel-andrews-defends-ballooning-state-debt/11156662

Mike.

I thought you were not coming back?

I'm not against borrowing, there is a time and a place.
- A house for most people is a once off investment, hence you borrow, you buy, you pay it off, done!

- The problem is too many govt, ALP ones being typically the worst, borrow for what is basically recurring outlays/projects. So you end up in a cycle of it never ending. The biggest challenge that has faced the bulk of LNP govts across most of the country is that they repeatedly have to fix the previous govts financial situation before they can do anything, "visionary". ie Mikey you will remember the basket case handed over by Caine.

Take the Metro project for example, fine, borrow, build and then spend 20-30 years paying it off. However what about Metro2, Metro3 etc projects. If the time frame for these projects and/or the borrowings for the first one is too high, you will eventually get to a position when you can do nothing for up to a decade or more because you are still paying down the first Metros. Greece is an extreme example and you risk cutting spending on day to day costs, such as schools, PT. This is what Kennet had to deal with.

Closer to home, Qld is currently another. It debt repayments currently exceed the construction outlays for the CRR, a project sidelined for nearly 10 years because the state couldn't borrow more.

Yes interest rates are low, now! But for how long, what is the time frame to repay the debt? Why cannot the state fund these projects without debt, NSW not only did but also repaid it debt in the same time frame.

Some of these questions may lead to answers that state, yes maybe we should wait a bit longer on some of the projects.

The fact that people ask Andrews about the debt levels means there is a growing concern about what he's doing and what legacy he will leave Victoria.

... NO government services or programs have actually been cut...

Wow, and all they had to do was DOUBLE Victoria's state debt.

Spoken like a true conservative.

The only fan of the Baillieu/Napthine do nothing government...is that why you moved to SA...way too much progress on this side of the border

Mike.

...to hell with our children's taxation levels, lets not just spend their inheritance, but also their income today.

For you Shane...and our friend Don over in AA land in SA.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-28/daniel-andrews-defends-ballooning-state-debt/11156662

Mike.

I'm not against borrowing, there is a time and a place.
- A house for most people is a once off investment, hence you borrow, you buy, you pay it off, done!

- The problem is too many govt, ALP ones being typically the worst, borrow for what is basically recurring outlays/projects.

So, once you've ever borrowed you should never do it again to improve yourself?

Poppycock!

The fact that people ask Andrews about the debt levels means there is a growing concern about what he's doing and what legacy he will leave Victoria.

Maybe it’s “growing”, maybe that’s just what it sounds like in some echo chambers.

Andrews and Pallas were upfront with their plans to raise debt before the election, which is a commendable action in my view. It obviously didn’t swing votes in any great numbers despite the best efforts of Guy et al.

Maybe things will change in three and a half years, maybe they won’t. But if Dan can keep building things - regardless of what he has to do to the budget to make that happen - I’d say it’s almost certain he’ll be returned, even if the economy is falling down around him. After all, what’s a better political support base in a recession than having an army of workers on the public purse? And Victorians have long memories: I sincerely doubt the Liberal Party could manage an 8% swing in economic doldrums that would be blamed on their federal counterparts, with the ghost of Kennett still looming large.

All that is completely separate to whether you actually agree with the debt increase or not. But I don’t see a single state, blue or red, that’s paying down debt over its forward estimates in its most recent budget (though if I’ve made a mistake I’m happy to be corrected).

In the main and objectively, NSW PT is better than ours. Only someone that is one eyed would say otherwise. Their Metro service is far more extensive than ours, their Interurban operations are electrically hauled and NSW plan better than we do down South. You like to go on about V/Line. V/Line is still crap. Hampered by the piecemeal approach to rolling stock renewal. In particular the introduction of Vlocities does not cover this state in glory.

Why oh why didnt the Bracks Government order enough Vlocities to replace old stock. Instead they ordered the bare minimum and decided to refurbish H-Type carriages, converted EMU stock from the 1950/60's. As a result, we are still operating peak services with old 1950's tin-worm riddled H Type carriages hauled by 1980's vintage locos. Those life-expired old pieces of junk should have been scrapped and made into dog food tins long ago. V/Line could and should have had a modern DMU fleet by now. Instead we are left with a mismatch of Modern DMU's, Older DMU's and old locos and carriages, with all the cost and operational penalties associated with running such a fleet. 70 x 3 car trains has been produced since 2004. 15 years for 70 trains. Over 20% of V/line's rolling stock are carriages that are over 60 years old. NSW on the other hand commit to large orders with the view of replacing old stock.

Premier Andrews is to be commended for his efforts in revitalising PT in Victoria. In reality we are lagging behind NSW.

Michael
Again...to clarify, I was writing about PT service north and west of the Great Dividing Range as my examples cite.


The H cars were renovated by the Cain Labor government as an extension of the 'New Deal' around 15 years before the election of the Bracks government.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Deal_(railway)

Premier Steve Bracks to his credit as a regular traveller on the Ballarat line through the 1980's created the Regional Fast Rail project and ordered as part of that 29 two car V'Locity sets for the project when he won office in late 1999.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Fast_Rail_project

Little did he realise the transformation of the regional railway that would be forthcoming and the impending growth of regional towns and cities...however the whole project could have been a dud (it wasn't) and the Bracks government which NEVER had the support of the Liberal/National party Opposition for the project could have been tossed out of government had it failed.

Since then the government has been playing catch-up in trying to procure enough rolling stock to cover demand AND retire the H cars and the 4 lost years of the Baillieu/Napthine government didn't help.

Mike.

Mike'

I sense that I am wasting my breath here in trying to get you to at least consider things objectively instead of broadcasting a party political piece on behalf of the Labor party every time you submit something. Stop deluding yourself that the ALP has always been the promised land when it comes to PT. I maintain that NSW indeed do things better than we do.

No one could foresee the impending growth in passenger numbers, but that is not what I am alluding to. The question is why did Steve Bracks only order 29 x 2 car DMU when he knew full well that V/Line had a lot of old life expired kit. He chose instead to refurbish H Type cars in 2007-2010. And they are still running, pulled until recently by under-powered P class locos that pi$$ fuel and belch smoke. And the ride in those infernal things are just terrible. V/Line in part is just an elaborate heritage railway. Those carriages were not far off from life expiry at the time of conversion via the new deal. In NSW they would have a large order to replace the old stock and then continued ordering. In any case Mike there are only 70 x 3 car velocities which has taken 15 years to build. That is just over 4 trains a year. At that rate it will be at least 2022 before those old pieces of crap are retired.

Yes the Ballieu/Napthine Government was terrible for PT, however Mike may I remind you that since 1999 there has been 16 years of ALP governance and just 4 of the Coalition and to blame the deficiencies of PT of this state solely on the Coalition is just the height of complete delusion. Bracks werent great and Brumby was no friend of Public Transport either. This revitalisation of PT is a Andrews thing not an ALP thing.

Michael

P.S Try opening your eyes, Mike

There are already enough V'Locity's operating to run services on the current timetable AND replace the H cars in service...IF the V'Locity's weren't getting knocked out of service through frequent animal strikes and to a lesser degree the refurbishment program.

I have seen the H cars, normally stabled at Maddingley completely replaced by V'Locity's, however at this time they are H sets, 4 sets of them on weekends.

So, we are getting there, but not quite yet.

When I said I'm not commenting on this subject any more, I was referring to replying to the naysayers argument regards the obviously deficient PT services in rural NSW.

Mike.

So, once you've ever borrowed you should never do it again to improve yourself?

Poppycock!

Poppycock right back at you.

A couple may borrow again to improve themselves, but eventually it ends.

A state govt doesn't have an end, it keeps going, so basically what you are doing is perpetually always behind the game, repaying last years, last decades spending. Living in permanent debt and a permanent cash flow out of the govt to fund the debt.

Why not mostly get ahead of the game and keep those cash flows going to the Chinese bank to further improve the state more.

The fact that people ask Andrews about the debt levels means there is a growing concern about what he's doing and what legacy he will leave Victoria.

Maybe it’s “growing”, maybe that’s just what it sounds like in some echo chambers.

Andrews and Pallas were upfront with their plans to raise debt before the election, which is a commendable action in my view. It obviously didn’t swing votes in any great numbers despite the best efforts of Guy et al.

Maybe things will change in three and a half years, maybe they won’t. But if Dan can keep building things - regardless of what he has to do to the budget to make that happen - I’d say it’s almost certain he’ll be returned, even if the economy is falling down around him. After all, what’s a better political support base in a recession than having an army of workers on the public purse? And Victorians have long memories: I sincerely doubt the Liberal Party could manage an 8% swing in economic doldrums that would be blamed on their federal counterparts, with the ghost of Kennett still looming large.

All that is completely separate to whether you actually agree with the debt increase or not. But I don’t see a single state, blue or red, that’s paying down debt over its forward estimates in its most recent budget (though if I’ve made a mistake I’m happy to be corrected).

Agree, it was honest about it. So +1 point for him. And to use the borrowings solely for capital projects another +1 to him unlike his brothers of the past.

However, it still doesn't solve the longterm issue. You are still using taking from the next generation to spend today and if you maintain that mentality, the next generation borrows against the following. Always borrowing, constantly funding the interest payments to the Chinese as if it normal with no end in sight.

Why not get ahead of the game and have money in the bank to fund such projects and even lend out to bring in money to the state.

As I said before, the once in a generation projects will more than likely need external funding as their costs are just too big. Again case in point is NSW, spending big with the money they earned this year to build it next year. Not build this year with the money they will earn in the next decade.

Just when you all thought the dust had settled on this subject for a while...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/6197604/northwest-rail-alliance-building-train-case/?cs=12

It will always keep coming back when it's least expected...

Mike.

Just when you all thought the dust had settled on this subject for a while...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/6197604/northwest-rail-alliance-building-train-case/?cs=12

It will always keep coming back when it's least expected...

Mike.

It'll be a bit awkward when their study shows it to be unfeasible.

Just when you all thought the dust had settled on this subject for a while...

http://www.sunraysiadaily.com.au/story/6197604/northwest-rail-alliance-building-train-case/?cs=12

It will always keep coming back when it's least expected...

Mike.

It'll be a bit awkward when their study shows it to be unfeasible.

That remains to be seen of course...

Nevertheless it's a relative constant in the local media.

Mike.

^ Sorry Michael, but IMHO the argument for returning passenger rail services to Mildura is about as compelling as returning all the long forgotten Milk Bars to residential neighbourhoods.

Of course the local media will keep peddling on behalf of whatever interest group pops up. But in itself, that is a sad reflection of the prevailing hick mentality and an unwillingness to simply let go.

The argument has been had here on more than one occasion. Nothing has changed.

There are already enough V'Locity's operating to run services on the current timetable AND replace the H cars in service...IF the V'Locity's weren't getting knocked out of service through frequent animal strikes and to a lesser degree the refurbishment program.

I have seen the H cars, normally stabled at Maddingley completely replaced by V'Locity's, however at this time they are H sets, 4 sets of them on weekends.

So, we are getting there, but not quite yet.

When I said I'm not commenting on this subject any more, I was referring to replying to the naysayers argument regards the obviously deficient PT services in rural NSW.

Mike.

Excuses Mike. It has taken 15 years to get 70 x 3 car trains in service. And my argument is that the H Type carriages should be sardine cans by now. They are still used for peak time services.It looks like at the rate we are going they will be in service until 2022.

Michael

Excuses Mike. It has taken 15 years to get 70 x 3 car trains in service. And my argument is that the H Type carriages should be sardine cans by now. They are still used for peak time services.It looks like at the rate we are going they will be in service until 2022.

Michael

2022 is only 3 years away.

Mike.

I thought I'd resurrect this relatively recent thread as a result of the PTUA AGM I attended in Flinders Lane this week.



James Pinder, V/Line CEO was the guest speaker and though I was not impressed with his reply to my question during a Q & A session, I thanked him for his honesty...he is a railway man and for that he is to be congratulated and so is the Andrews government for appointing him. Mr Pinder joined British Rail and progressed through the British Rail ranks, ultimately becoming a rolling stock engineer.



Mr Pinder was at pains to mention he commenced his appointment at V/Line in the middle of the V'Locity wheel wear controversy nearly 4 years ago. He had a Powerpoint presentation which among other things had an image of Sir Harold Clapp, whom he referred to as the Brunel of Victoria's railways...I liked the comparison.



But I digress.



My question to Mr Pinder included a prop.



I had a tangerine orange 'V/Line' embossed wrapper of a cake of Palmolive soap that I showed to the gathering as I explained that one of these was in each sleeping berth of the sleeping cars that once made up the overnight train that used to operate to Mildura.



I deliberately did NOT mention the name of the train.



I went on to say that I'm still a regular V/Line traveller to Mildura, however these days I travel to Swan Hill and connect with the bus.



I mentioned the rough riding characteristics of the V/Line 'classic' fleet, constructed in the early 1980's, the slowing down of the train at the many unprotected level crossings between Eaglehawk and Swan Hill, then the cramped and ageing buses that connect at Swan Hill to take pax to the growing Mildura and Sunraysia region.



I asked if V/Line would increase its advocacy of the Swan Hill line to the government and seek extra funding for this line.



Mr Pinder thanked me for the question and commenced by saying he had just returned from a meeting with Mr Ken Wakefield in Mildura that same day and then went on to say…after I asked him if he had travelled to Mildura by V/Line that had he travelled by V/Line, he would still be travelling because the service is so slow.



Mr Pinder candidly said flew to Mildura and then went on to advocate flying there as the fare was $80.00, I assume he meant each way. He also said he considers V/Line fares to be too cheap.



Even though my question was about the Swan Hill line and the old connecting buses, Mr Pinder went on to tell us that the cost of upgrading the Mildura line for passenger trains would be around $1Billion and that the journey would still be around 7 hours.



He did say that V/Line would like to eliminate all the unprotected level crossings on the network, but this was likely said in the context of the whole network, not just the Swan Hill and obviously the Mildura line. He indicated that V/Line is in a better financial space now, with patronage averaging a booming 10% increase annually and that V/Line was effectively running fast to keep still in implementing services to cater for the demand. Tarneit was mentioned and the nightly dash to the car park off the commuter services in order to get out of the car park before the traffic builds up. He also said he knows nothing of V/Line before the RRL which is understandable.



Moving on, regards the Swan Hill line…it appears Mr Pinder is no advocate for V/Line beyond Bendigo and I have to consider if I should write to Minister Horne and advise accordingly and inquire about her thoughts on this matter. The fact that I write this in a public forum about what was said doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

Happy to take comments.

Mike.