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New 'slowed' V/Line timetable on RRL

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      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Below in italics is a copy of a letter I wrote to the Ballarat Courier today after learning of the 'slowed' Ballarat line t/t for post 27th July.

    Some trains are given 18 minutes to run 'express' from Footscray to Southern Cross.

    Mike.


    Hi Guys...have a look at the new V/Line timetable to start on 27th July.

    The new Regional Rail Link track from Sunshine will come into use at this time for Ballarat and Bendigo trains.

    Have a look at the running time of the 6:38 peak hour service from Wendouree to Southern Cross which is given 18 MINUTES to travel from Footscray to Southern Cross.

    I consider that to be OUTRAGEOUS and an increase of over 100% in the running time of a train between those two stations.
    Formerly the running time for a train from Footscray to Southern Cross station was as little as 8 minutes, and this was operating on the tracks sharing with suburban trains.
    This new timetable is on the new RRL tracks which are separated from the electric trains from Sunshine to Southern Cross.

    For certain a fit cyclist could ride a bicycle from Footscray to Southern Cross faster than this peak ‘express’ train....

    [i]http://www.vline.com.au/pdf/timetables/ballarat1.pdf[/i]

    Moreover the Ballarat trains have an extra stop, Sunshine AND Footscray because all trains except the former ‘flagship’ express train will now stop at both stations.

    Look into this, this is completely ridiculous.

    Regards.
    Posted: 02 Jul 2014 19:53

    Last edited by The Vinelander on 02 Jul 2014 20:33; edited 4 times in total

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      ab123 Chief Train Controller

    Probably more make up time built into the timetable to avoid those pesky fines!
    Posted: 02 Jul 2014 21:28
      richter170 Locomotive Driver

    Hi all,

    I live in Ballarat and commute down each day as well. But Generally catch off peak trains as well as the last home.

    Compared with the new Geelong timetable which shares the same line some of their trains can make Footscray to Southern Cross in 9 - 10 mins! Makes me wonder if the extra time is built in for late running on the up, and then all trains will arrive on time if not 8 mins early.

    What really pisses me off is that there is a huge gap hour and a half between the 2024 and the 2154 (the last)! Yes that is the last for the day. You can still go home to Geelong at midnight from Southern Cross.

    I would have throught that now would be a good time to add an extra service so trains departed on the hr 1825,1925,2025,2125,2225 at least! The last train to Bendigo leaves at 2222 each night and that is further away than Ballarat! A 10pm finish means I leave the car in town as a backup in case I run late and train home if I can!

    Cheers Al.
    Posted: 02 Jul 2014 22:55
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    Will the RRL be fully operational?
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 07:25
      richter170 Locomotive Driver

    I failed to mention that Geelong trains are still operating via Newport. This also means when arriving at 15/16 they have to slow to 40kph at Sth Ken to divert off the through lines to Franklin St, over to the new RRL line and then climb up to spion kop junction! But still manage to maintain the timetable.

    In fact I think after this work is complete, there is limited access Southern Cross 3 - 8 platforms from Franklin St Junction, as the design of the RRL has all trains except Seymour coming in over the flyover? (I srand to be corrected on this)
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 10:39
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    This is a good pickup Mike.  I will be very interested and so might others here on the response you might receive.
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 12:04
      ab123 Chief Train Controller

    After the shut down access to platforms 1-8 at Southern Cross will be via the new RRL lines from South Kensington and over the North Melb flyover.
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 13:56
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    Will the RRL be fully operational?
    ZH836301

    After the current  Occos the only connections at Franklin St into the Country terminal platforms 1 - 8 at Southern Cross will be from the East Suburban Lines, (and technically via existing crossovers also over to Main Suburban and Through Suburban lines); and also off the dg Nth Melbourne flyover, also from RRL at grade from Spion Kop Jct into platforms 15/16.

    A feature of the new arrangements is a bi directional VLP only track between Nth Melbourne flyover at Dudley St and the lead to platforms 7 and 8 .  There is an interface with Metrol required to get into/out of platform 8 .

    So from July timetable (i) Geelongs leave Metro at South Ken  and can access 15/16 at grade as now, or via Nth Melbourne flyover to platforms 1 - 8 .  (ii)  Ballarats  come in on RRL track pair all way from Down end of Sunshine and can access platforms 15/16 at grade, or platforms 1 - 8 via Nth Melbourne flyover. (3)  Bendigos leave Metro on Up side Anderson Rd Underpass onto RRL track pair and can access platforms 15/16 at grade, or platforms 1-8 via Nth Melbourne flyover.

    SG access to platforms 1 & 2 via Nth Melbourne flyover, with parallel  Up and Down sg movements possible between Southern Cross and Dynon end of Nth Melbourne flyover .

    Seymour / Goulburn Valley  access via East Suburban lines at Franklin St with parallel Up and Down moves available.

    So RRL effectively complete for Ballarat and Bendigo travellers from late July  2014 .  Expected that RRL will be complete  (South Kensington to Manor North Junction) for Geelong travellers in second quarter of 2015.

    Timetable change from July 14 is just a fiddle and massage of existing to fit RRL track pair . No real improvements .

    Timetable wise new  post RRL  timetable for Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo  from second quarter of 2015.
    Announced so far additional peak Weekday trips each way   Geelong 3, Ballarat 1,  Bendigo 1.   We are being drip fed here up to the election to maximize brownie points for a struggling Government .  Expect long awaited and overdue increase in Off peak frequency to both Geelong and Melton also to be announced before 11/14 .

    Owing to fact Government sat on its hands till late 2011  only a handful of the 43 extra VL cars will be delivered by mid 2015, so with current chronic overcrowd situations plus thousands of new pax generated at Wyndamvale and Tarneit   capacity wise the s--t  will really hit the fan when the  Geelong leg opens .
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 15:22
      blowfish Junior Train Controller

    This may have been mentioned at some point, but was Seymour/Shepparton ever thought of as an inclusion in this project? I'd imagine key factors would of been:
    - Upgrade to the poor Albion-Jacana section
    - Travel time
    - ARTC ownership
    - Airport Link
    - Future gauge conversion, north of the sparks system
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 17:44
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    This may have been mentioned at some point, but was Seymour/Shepparton ever thought of as an inclusion in this project? I'd imagine key factors would of been:
    - Upgrade to the poor Albion-Jacana section
    - Travel time
    - ARTC ownership
    - Airport Link
    - Future gauge conversion, north of the sparks system
    blowfish

    I think it was, but only between Southern Cross and the Kensington flyover. There is a junction there between the RRL and the Broadmeadows Suburban Lines.
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 18:03
      RustyRick Chief Commissioner

    Location: South West Vic
    This may have been mentioned at some point, but was Seymour/Shepparton ever thought of as an inclusion in this project?
    blowfish

    Shepparton News reported today that "The Victorian Government will establish a Shepparton Passenger Services Working Group to look at public transport options and report directly to minister Terry Mulder." So, no is the answer. Delay until the election, then hope it goes away.

    Rick
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 18:51
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    Cheers kul.
    Posted: 03 Jul 2014 21:12
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    There's already plenty of slack in the timetables, especially for the Down journey to Bendigo.  i.e. The old timetable had approx 9 minutes from Kangaroo Flat to Bendigo.  It can usually do that in around 5 or so minutes.  And yet they still couldn't get better than 90% on-time performance Rolling Eyes

    Given that the RRL tracks between Sunshine and Footscray will have heaps of capacity before Geelong trains use them next year, we'll probably see quite a lot of early running into Southern Cross.  And for Down Bendigo trains a whole lot of waiting at Sunshine station and slow running from there to Sunbury as they follow the stop-start sparks...
    Posted: 05 Jul 2014 18:53
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    This is just a massage and fiddle of the existing VLP tt for Ballarat & Bendigo . The big change tt is when RRL complete in second quarter 2015 > Then total new tt for Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo.

    In the meantime with all Ballarat &  Bendigo on RRL from Sunshine in from late July 14 then the margin for Up trains which was previously built in approaching Sunbury and Sunshine and between Footscray and Southern Cross is now all built in between Footscray and Southern Cross , therefore the excessive allowed times.

    Also RRL tracks have to settle down between South Ken and Sunshine so initial allowed speed will not be as high as the final design speed .  

    Historically VLP have built in excessive margins to allow for Metro congestion, speed restrictions, wheelchair pax  etc .  Many V/Line schedules have so much fat the trains trip over themselves .  Also the mentality is to put more fat in the schedule to protect the timekeeping .  In the case of VLP late running the Government is just fining itself and tying up hours of bureacratic red tape. Ridiculous .
    Posted: 05 Jul 2014 21:42
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    This is just a massage and fiddle of the existing VLP tt for Ballarat & Bendigo . The big change tt is when RRL complete in second quarter 2015 > Then total new tt for Geelong, Ballarat & Bendigo.

    In the meantime with all Ballarat & Bendigo on RRL from Sunshine in from late July 14 then the margin for Up trains which was previously built in approaching Sunbury and Sunshine and between Footscray and Southern Cross is now all built in between Footscray and Southern Cross , therefore the excessive allowed times.

    Also RRL tracks have to settle down between South Ken and Sunshine so initial allowed speed will not be as high as the final design speed .

    Historically VLP have built in excessive margins to allow for Metro congestion, speed restrictions, wheelchair pax etc . Many V/Line schedules have so much fat the trains trip over themselves . Also the mentality is to put more fat in the schedule to protect the timekeeping . In the case of VLP late running the Government is just fining itself and tying up hours of bureacratic red tape. Ridiculous .
    kuldalai

    This is not entirely correct.

    The speed limit between Footscray and SCS may be 80 KPH, assuming for track 'settling' which is dubious anyway, trains may travel at a hypothetical 70 KPH, this may add 1 min to the t/t between Footscray and SCS. Under the RFR in 2005 whole sections were rebuilt on the Ballarat line with relatively high speeds maintained until the switch over to 160KPH operation

    Agreed...V/Line have the runs on the board regards slowing services. Both Ballarat and Bendigo flagship services have been significantly slowed by upwards of 20 mins since 2005, which presumably had recovery time built in to those original schedules anyway.

    Wasn't the whole idea of the RRL to avoid clashing with METRO services hence the rebuilt track infrastructure approaching SCS Question
    That being the case...services will operate, uninterrupted from Footscray to their respective platforms at SCS. Similar to arriving at Paddington, St Pancras or Euston in London. Instead of changing trains at North Melbourne at this stage I plan to travel through to SCS and catch the 4 min frequency counter peak loop service.

    The proposed t/t is simply ludicrous, hence my suggestion a cyclist could ride faster than the running times for some services from Footscray and SCS.

    Mike.
    Posted: 06 Jul 2014 06:10
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland
    Many trains may arrive 10 or so minutes earlier Into Melbourne, generating many brownie points with commuters, but If things go a bit pear shape, there Is still 10 minutes up V/Line's sleave.
    Posted: 06 Jul 2014 09:21
      frezno Junior Train Controller

    Vinelander. I too am concerned about the new Vline timetable, on the Traralgon line. Journey times are in some cases 10 minutes longer as a result of running more suburban trains. Through the middle of the day a 20 minute service is certainly not justified to either Cranbourne or Pakenham, and traralgon line users will suffer. But it's a vote winner for the important people of Melbourne of course.

    richter170, I totally agree that the last services are way too early. The fact that Geelong gets a midnight service and the some of the last trains to other regional centres leave before 2200 is a joke. The last Traralgon service currently leaves southern cross at 2145. In the new timetable instead of doing the sensible thing and making it later, they've made it depart a minute earlier at 2144. When are these idiots going to get real and realise that people drive when they have poor public transport options?
    Posted: 06 Jul 2014 14:24
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Vinelander. I too am concerned about the new Vline timetable, on the Traralgon line. Journey times are in some cases 10 minutes longer as a result of running more suburban trains. Through the middle of the day a 20 minute service is certainly not justified to either Cranbourne or Pakenham, and traralgon line users will suffer. But it's a vote winner for the important people of Melbourne of course.
    frezno

    But it's not a vote winner for Russell Northe... the Nat from the seat of Morwell, who is on very thin ice with the open cut fire and the potential ongoing health impacts on the citizens of Morwell.

    The Government can't have it both ways. I suggest contacting your local media as I have at Ballarat and let them hammer the government with it.

    Mike.
    Posted: 06 Jul 2014 16:07
      DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

    Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
    Frezno's post is a good wake-up to any traveller on other V-Line lines who think they are doing it tough.

    It looks like most weekday services from July 27th will now be timetabled to take the next path through the metro area compared to to now, but only arrive a few minutes later to their destination, Up or Down. Imagine the pats on the back though, when performance targets are met!

    The only evening Down Flagship semi-express Vlocity will now take an extra 8 minutes. We are now entering the Red-Rattler-Stopping-At-Hallam-Narre Warren-Berwick-Beaconsfield-Officer times of the 1970's. 135 minutes to travel the 158km to Traralgon is pathetic for a so-called Flagship commuter service.

    MIKE, the local media were contacted after the news of the proposed Dandenong corridor capacity upgrade project was announced in the state budget. A letter appeared in the local paper (author unknown) bemoaning the fact that when Metro frequency is increased as a result of that project, almost every V-Line servive will have to follow a Metro service under 'Yellows' for the entire length and that much time will be added to the timetable.

    it was a succint piece written by someone who knows their stuff.

    There were no replies.
    Posted: 06 Jul 2014 21:35
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    Vinelander. I too am concerned about the new Vline timetable, on the Traralgon line. Journey times are in some cases 10 minutes longer as a result of running more suburban trains. Through the middle of the day a 20 minute service is certainly not justified to either Cranbourne or Pakenham, and traralgon line users will suffer. But it's a vote winner for the important people of Melbourne of course.
    frezno

    The amount of selfishness shown here is incredible.


    Suburban services carrying vastly more people should not be run because may they cause a small delay to lesser utilised Vline services?


    This is incredible.  I don't think there is a word to describe someone so selfish and out of touch with reality.


    When are these idiots going to get real and realise that people drive when they have poor public transport options?
    frezno

    Says the guy advocating cutting suburban services.


    Do you pay the full cost required to fund the provision of your Vline service?  No, so suck it up.
    Posted: 07 Jul 2014 01:38
      freightgate Minister for Railways

    Location: Albury, New South Wales
    I think those last comments are harsh. Are you z now saying country Victorians should be treated differently than Melbourne based Victorians ?

    I believe vline services are well patronised on the gippsland line when vline can be bothered running a train.

    Public transports is for all Victorians.
    Posted: 07 Jul 2014 07:45
      whoistheg Station Master

    Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    The 15:47 from Wendouree is listed at 21 min !!
    Sunshine – 17:03
    Footscray – 17:08
    SCS – 17:29
    Posted: 07 Jul 2014 11:34
      JimYarin Chief Commissioner

    Location: Adelaide, South Australia
    The 15:47 from Wendouree is listed at 21 min !!
    Sunshine – 17:03
    Footscray – 17:08
    SCS – 17:29
    whoistheg


    what was the time previous to the new timetable?
    Posted: 07 Jul 2014 13:35
      whoistheg Station Master

    Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
    Prev time for the 15:47 is

    Sunshine - 17:06
    Footscray - 17:16
    North - Skip
    SCS - 17:29

    So 13min..
    Posted: 07 Jul 2014 14:19
      ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

    Location: BleakCity
    I think those last comments are harsh. Are you z now saying country Victorians should be treated differently than Melbourne based Victorians ?

    I believe vline services are well patronised on the gippsland line when vline can be bothered running a train.

    Public transports is for all Victorians.
    freightgate

    What is the point of this post?


    It's the other poster claiming they should be treated differently, and that suburban service frequency should be restricted for the benefit of Vline services.


    Compare road journey time to Pakenham with rail.  Now do the same for Traralgon.  Tell me who's getting the faster service.
    Posted: 09 Jul 2014 01:20

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