XPT terminated at Cootamundra following incident

 
  Westby3026 Locomotive Driver

Quoted from Wagga Wagga Daily Advertiser

2pm: POLICE are investigating the death of a man who was removed from a passenger train at Cootamundra on Tuesday morning.

Police received a report of a man behaving aggressively on the Sydney to Melbourne XPT about 3am.

The man was removed from the train by railway staff when it stopped at Cootamundra railway station.

"He became unconscious on the platform and CPR was initiated by officers when they arrived," a NSW Police statement said.

He was taken to Cootamundra Hospital by ambulance where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

The man is yet to be positively identified.

A NSW Ambulance spokeswoman said the man - aged in his 30s - was taken to hospital in a critical condition.

A post-mortem examination will be conducted to determine cause of death.



A post-mortem examination will determine cause of death of a man who was removed from the Sydney to Melbourne XPT in the early hours of Tuesday.

2pm: POLICE are investigating the death of a man who was removed from a passenger train at Cootamundra on Tuesday morning.

Police received a report of a man behaving aggressively on the Sydney to Melbourne XPT about 3am.

The man was removed from the train by railway staff when it stopped at Cootamundra railway station.

"He became unconscious on the platform and CPR was initiated by officers when they arrived," a NSW Police statement said.

He was taken to Cootamundra Hospital by ambulance where he was pronounced dead on arrival.

The man is yet to be positively identified.

A NSW Ambulance spokeswoman said the man - aged in his 30s - was taken to hospital in a critical condition.

A post-mortem examination will be conducted to determine cause of death.

A report will be prepared for the coroner.

12.45pm: SOUTHERN XPT services have been replaced by buses on Tuesday after a "police operation" at Cootamundra on Monday night.

Limited information about the incident is currently available from police.

According to NSW TrainLink, the 8.32pm Sydney to Melbourne XPT service terminated at Cootamundra on Monday "due to an operational issue and a police operation".

Following extensive delays, a replacement coach service left Cootamundra at 8.50am on Tuesday to convey passengers to Melbourne.


The NSW TrainLink website says Tuesday morning's Melbourne to Sydney XPT service has been replaced with a road coach service for the entire journey.

"The coaches departed Melbourne at 8.10am and a delay of up to 40 minutes is expected," the website said.

The delay is a flow-on effect of Monday night's incident.

More to come.

Sponsored advertisement

  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
great coverage thanks for the update.

are any freight services affected?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
What's the bet drugs may have been involved?
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
It never ceases to amaze me as to why on earth they would have to terminate the service under such circumstances....it's not as though there was anything to be gained by taking all the passengers off and herding them on to buses to complete their journey. The train didn't run-over the bloke. He just happened to be a passenger who was not even on the train when he passed away.

Anyway, just my thoughts, I'm sure the officials must have their reasons.

Roachie
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Maybe staff were involved in an altercation and thats why it had to be terminated?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Maybe staff were involved in an altercation and thats why it had to be terminated?
Junction box


Were there any staff injured?
  Westby3026 Locomotive Driver

For all we know the passenger fell out of the train and smacked his head on the platform while being evicted. I'm sure the facts will come out in days to come.

As far as I know the service was terminated, and Im guessing the appropriate emergency services would have searched the train for evidence etc.

Coota seems to be a common place for passengers to be evicted
  mikado5910 Chief Train Controller

Location: Kurri Kurri NSW
It never ceases to amaze me as to why on earth they would have to terminate the service under such circumstances....it's not as though there was anything to be gained by taking all the passengers off and herding them on to buses to complete their journey. The train didn't run-over the bloke. He just happened to be a passenger who was not even on the train when he passed away.

Anyway, just my thoughts, I'm sure the officials must have their reasons.

Roachie
Roachie

In the case of sudden death, it becomes a police matter regardless of the surrounding circumstances. [Even the sudden death of my father-in-law at home required the police to attend, to authorise the removal of his body by the undertaker.] The train crew would have been required to provide statements, and other witnesses would have been interviewed. In those circumstances, it would have been difficult for the train to proceed, especially if the police required access to the carriages for their investigation, since the precursor incidents occurred on board.
  Newcastle Express Chief Commissioner

What's the bet drugs may have been involved?
bevans

It may have or may not have been. How do you know that it might not be a medical condition like epilepsy (or a similar medical condition), just before a fit for example?
  JoppaJunction Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
It may have or may not have been. How do you know that it might not be a medical condition like epilepsy (or a similar medical condition), just before a fit for example?
Newcastle Express

The news said

"Police received a report of a man behaving aggressively on the Sydney to Melbourne XPT about 3am."

Is aggressive behaviour something from a fitting man?
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

The news said

"Police received a report of a man behaving aggressively on the Sydney to Melbourne XPT about 3am."

Is aggressive behaviour something from a fitting man?
BenGibbons

Well he could have been having a stroke,

but remember the police will declare it a crime scene until they are satisfied on the cause or that they have gathered sufficient information for the coroner.

Then they will want statements from witnesses, including crew.

This would have been a traumatic event for the crew, they may well have been injured, however even if not, the little information is that the man collapsed on the platform, the crew possibly worked providing first aid, this would be upsetting, if they worked on a patient, and then he passed away.


I assume that Countrylink would have an internal policy to have the crew relieved and provided with trauma counselling.

All of this takes time, the police would not in my experience give a forecast when they would release the train, the provision of replacement buses would be in the best interests of the other passengers, who, mostly just want to get to their destination.
  billybaxter Chief Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
What's the bet drugs may have been involved?
bevans

People who have already suffered strokes are often subject to episodes of extreme irritability and irrational anger as a result of brain damage caused by the stroke. The same with people who have brain lesions. Neither case, unlike drug taking, is usually chosen by the sufferer. Maybe he was a druggie, but maybe he was a bloke born with a heart problem and two strokes have had the best of him.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
So the Coroner's report is out now and I'm about as impressed by it as I was by that piece of excrement that masqueraded as a report into those 3 scrotes that were killed up Goodna way a few years ago.

No investigation as to just how bad ol' mates behaviour was that the on-board staff felt it necessary to go against their training to physically remove a disruptive passenger who they felt was a threat to other passengers.

Nowhere near as much weight given to the reports of other passengers or on-board staff as compared to the lovey-fovey reports from his family. Bugger-all weight given to the fact that he was trying to access restricted areas on-board, and by all appearances a report so skewed as to try to paint the victim (so-called) in the best possible light while lambasting both NSWTrainLink and NSW Police for their actions/inactions.

His explanation for so doing was that there was no suggestion that Jeff had assaulted anyone or committed any offences.
"Police Inspector Holmes"
Let me see...From the Passenger Transport Amendment (Passenger Conduct) Regulation 2013:
  • S50 - A person must not, in or on a public passenger vehicle or train or in a public area: (a) behave in an offensive manner, or (b) use any offensive language, or (c) wilfully interfere with the comfort or safety of other persons
  • S52(2) - A person must not drink any alcohol on any bus, ferry or train or in any public area.
  • S55(1) - A driver of a public passenger vehicle or train or an authorised officer may direct a person to leave, or not to enter, a public passenger vehicle or train if the driver or authorised officer is of the opinion that: the person is otherwise causing, or is likely to cause, inconvenience to other passengers or to the driver of the public passenger vehicle or train (whether because the person is under the influence of alcohol or another drug, or for any other reason)
  • S55(2) - A driver of a public passenger vehicle or train or an authorised officer may direct a person to leave, or not to enter, a public passenger vehicle or train if the driver or authorised officer is of the opinion that:  the person is committing an offence under this Regulation in or on the public passenger vehicle or train
  • S55(3) - A person who is given a direction under subclause (1) or (2) must comply with it
  • S55(5) - A person who refuses or fails to comply with a direction given under this clause may be removed from the relevant public passenger vehicle, train, premises or monorail works by an authorised officer

And an "Authorised Officer" includes staff of NSW Trains, so while their employer may not have permitted it, the legislation allowed them to physically remove said passenger


Additionally, from Section 63, we have: The driver of a public passenger vehicle must take such action as is appropriate (for example, contacting the operator or the police for help) if the driver believes on reasonable grounds that the conduct of a passenger is endangering the safety of any person.

A bus or train driver should be fully supported in taking whatever action they deem necessary to protect themselves, their train or the passengers aboard, in the same manner as the Pilot In Command of an aircraft, where once you declare an emergency, you can break any rule in the book, so long as you genuinely believed it to be the best course of action at the time. But no mention of this in the report whatsoever. Not impressed.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
Lack of Police, lack of trained staff under directive not to wrestle with the public, what do you do?
Train and certify on board staff to remove people safely?
What then, the disturbed fella jumps in front of the following train?
I hope the Government learns the lesson of staff rationalisation, do they have a care of duty to babysit everyone?
Its a hard one considering the guys poor health and lack of training.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

Really seems like the staff were in a no win situation. I seem to remember several years ago when a drunken passenger was detrained at Springwood, and fell asleep on the platform seat.

Sometime later, apparently he got up and whilst wandering along the platform, fell onto the tracks was was killed by a freighter. The coroner
criticized the staff for not looking after him, but where is the staff responsibility? whether you are drunk or drugged, it is a lifestyle decision you made, if this results in your death then surely its like speeding in your car, its sad, but is a consequence of your actions?
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I dont know.  

If it was a serious issue they should have not 'gone against their training' and insisted that the police be called (who would also have the relevant training) to remove the passenger.  It seems that the crew may have been operating outside of their authority (per para 117 of the report).  They may have gone too far.  I disagree that you should be able to break any rule in the book if you believe there to be an emergency - in this case there probably wasnt an emergency as the train was stopped and he was off the train and no longer a danger to passengers.  The police cop more of the blame too for failing to act.  Im sure they all will hold this with them for the rest of their lives.

And yes, he was on drugs and he did a whole host of wrong things, but in a situation like that where a human is not in their own control they are quite dependent on others around them to make the right decisions at critical times to ensure that their safety is assured.  Two wrongs dont make a right.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I dont know.  

If it was a serious issue they should have not 'gone against their training' and insisted that the police be called (who would also have the relevant training) to remove the passenger.  It seems that the crew may have been operating outside of their authority (per para 117 of the report).  They may have gone too far.  I disagree that you should be able to break any rule in the book if you believe there to be an emergency - in this case there probably wasnt an emergency as the train was stopped and he was off the train and no longer a danger to passengers.  The police cop more of the blame too for failing to act.  Im sure they all will hold this with them for the rest of their lives.

And yes, he was on drugs and he did a whole host of wrong things, but in a situation like that where a human is not in their own control they are quite dependent on others around them to make the right decisions at critical times to ensure that their safety is assured.  Two wrongs dont make a right.
james.au
The crew regularly remove disruptive passengers from NSW Train Link services. There is no rules saying disruptive passengers, who may a danger to other passengers, cannot be removed. What do you expect them to do? Complete a medical and mental diagnosis on the customer before acting. You appear to be one of these side walk experts who absolutely zilch experience in dealing with such matters but full of unwanted advice. I suggest you keep it to yourself.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

I dont know.  

If it was a serious issue they should have not 'gone against their training' and insisted that the police be called (who would also have the relevant training) to remove the passenger.  It seems that the crew may have been operating outside of their authority (per para 117 of the report).  They may have gone too far.  I disagree that you should be able to break any rule in the book if you believe there to be an emergency - in this case there probably wasnt an emergency as the train was stopped and he was off the train and no longer a danger to passengers.  The police cop more of the blame too for failing to act.  Im sure they all will hold this with them for the rest of their lives.

And yes, he was on drugs and he did a whole host of wrong things, but in a situation like that where a human is not in their own control they are quite dependent on others around them to make the right decisions at critical times to ensure that their safety is assured.  Two wrongs dont make a right.
The crew regularly remove disruptive passengers from NSW Train Link services. There is no rules saying disruptive passengers, who may a danger to other passengers, cannot be removed. What do you expect them to do? Complete a medical and mental diagnosis on the customer before acting. You appear to be one of these side walk experts who absolutely zilch experience in dealing with such matters but full of unwanted advice. I suggest you keep it to yourself.
nswtrains
I tend to agree, lets stop thinking about the rights of the druggie whack job, think about if you are the passenger sitting beside this moron, or on the train waiting to get home. He made poor decisions and paid for them.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
The guy died guys.  He died.  It wasn't just the drugs that did it.  The restraint of him did it too, which people did, and did it without training and in contravention of NSW Trains policies, as is stated in the report at paragraphs 117, 124-129.

@nswtrains - ill have my opinion whether you like it or not.  That is the point of this forum.  Based on your name I guess you might be part of the organisation, and therefore I understand your emotion and that you may have more information (and that you may not be able to share it).

But coroners reports are serious reports and the conclusions that I read there paints the picture of a difficult situation that did not end well through failures by all parties.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

The guy died guys.  He died.  It wasn't just the drugs that did it.  The restraint of him did it too, which people did, and did it without training and in contravention of NSW Trains policies, as is stated in the report at paragraphs 117, 124-129.

@nswtrains - ill have my opinion whether you like it or not.  That is the point of this forum.  Based on your name I guess you might be part of the organisation, and therefore I understand your emotion and that you may have more information (and that you may not be able to share it).

But coroners reports are serious reports and the conclusions that I read there paints the picture of a difficult situation that did not end well through failures by all parties.
james.au
Starting with the person who took illegal drugs, think about the staff of the train who were trying to do the best they could under difficult conditions with little training, they have to live with it.
  mikado5910 Chief Train Controller

Location: Kurri Kurri NSW
The guy died guys.  He died.  It wasn't just the drugs that did it.  The restraint of him did it too, which people did, and did it without training and in contravention of NSW Trains policies, as is stated in the report at paragraphs 117, 124-129.

@nswtrains - ill have my opinion whether you like it or not.  That is the point of this forum.  Based on your name I guess you might be part of the organisation, and therefore I understand your emotion and that you may have more information (and that you may not be able to share it).

But coroners reports are serious reports and the conclusions that I read there paints the picture of a difficult situation that did not end well through failures by all parties.
james.au
James, legislation supersedes all policies or MOUs. In this case both of those documents did not comply with the Act and Regulation. Unfortunately, this was not dealt with in evidence or the report. If NSW Trains and the police wanted to change the way these matters were dealt with then they should have sought an amendment to the Regulation, which would have been reviewed by Parliamentary Counsel and approved by the Parliament. As KRaviator has pointed out the staff were complying with the law. Even the expert witnesses could not agree on the extent to which asphyxia played a role. Yes, it was a tragic incident, but it could equally have seen a death on-train from meth toxicity.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
Hello all,

Another whitewash of the perpetrator.  Everyone one else is responsible for the outcome apart from Jeff.  

I feel particularly sorry for the train crew.  Apart from their own feelings they are now saddled with being officially partly responsible for this fellows death.  I find it particularly galling that Mr Glissan QC called for the four train staff involved in the restraint to be referred to the DPP for possible prosecution for manslaughter.

A person in this state of mind is possible of anything.  As bevan intimated it is likely the train crew believed the fellow to be under the influence of alcohol, drugs or mental aberrations.  The first thought of the train crew was for the safety of themselves and other passengers.  Once they heard police would not be attending they had a very difficult situation to deal with.  Would he have attacked staff, passengers or injured himself if the train continued to Wagga Wagga (highly likely)?  Could they isolate him (not practical)?  The only clear option was to get him off the train, and he would not cooperate, so force was necessary.  

Unfortunately he resisted and restraint was needed.  Who knows how much restraint was appropriate.  I would conjecture that a similar result may well have been the outcome if police had to remove, restrain and arrest the perpetrator.

A question I have that was not addressed was did Jeff have a police record or history of drug use?  The family gave the usual glowing tribute to the deceased, as you would expect from people who have no concept of social responsibility.

My sincere condolences to the train staff involved.

John
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

If my children or family were on this train and subjected to intolerable behaviour by this individual, then I would hope and pray that the staff onboard would have reacted and removed this person as they did.
No reaction could have been far more catastrophic for the passengers onboard.
The Rail system is not meant to be a haven for drunks, druggies and homeless to use as they wish.
  theanimal Chief Commissioner

If my children or family were on this train and subjected to intolerable behaviour by this individual, then I would hope and pray that the staff onboard would have reacted and removed this person as they did.
No reaction could have been far more catastrophic for the passengers onboard.
The Rail system is not meant to be a haven for drunks, druggies and homeless to use as they wish.
Showtime
I agree, why people are focused on the "rights" of the drug taker are beyond me
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

I am the only one who thinks the police are the only ones to blame for this incident.   They straight out refused a call for help.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.