Rail link to Doncaster

 
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

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The busway which will run along the middle of Eastern Fwy median will cost AU $600 Million To construct. Building a rail line would not disrupt the new lanes that are to be created and would benefit tens of thousands of people in the east. For double the cost, you can build the Doncaster Rail Line of which 90% of it would be above ground.

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The proposed 2-lane busway runs along the north side of the Eastern Freeway between Doncaster Road and Chandler Highway, splitting into separate eastbound and westbound lanes on the north and south sides respectively, west of Chandler Highway. The schematics show the median strip as being retained for most of the way, which conflicts with what is shown in the artist impressions.

From the NE Link Project website:
https://northeastlink.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/300355/NEL-EarlyDesignSchematicsandArtistImpressionsApril2018.pdf


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Busses carry 70 people where as trains will carry up to 1500 people. The Project also talks about park and ride future facilities all which can be incorporated in the Doncaster Rail Project. Stations at Kew and Bulleen could benefit with these and a Station in Doncaster would also connect with the Suburban Rail Loop.

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ptvcommuter

Standard buses carry about 75 passengers, articulated buses about 110 passengers and double-articulated buses between 160 and 200 passengers. The tennis centre at the NE corner of Bulleen and Thompsons Road is earmarked as a park-and-ride and is twice the area of the existing Doncaster Park-and-Ride.

Exactly what is being proposed is cause for concern, given the recent rejection of a similar unsolicited project from Transdev.

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  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Assistant Commissioner …………………………………………………………………………………………………………. The busway which will run along the middle of Eastern Fwy median will cost AU $600 Million To construct. Building a rail line would not disrupt the new lanes that are to be created and would benefit tens of thousands of people in the east. For double the cost, you can build the Doncaster Rail Line of which 90% of it would be above ground. ……………………………………………………………. The proposed 2-lane busway runs along the north side of the Eastern Freeway between Doncaster Road and Chandler Highway, splitting into separate eastbound and westbound lanes on the north and south sides respectively, west of Chandler Highway. The schematics show the median strip as being retained for most of the way, which conflicts with what is shown in the artist impressions. From the NE Link Project website: https://northeastlink.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016... ………………………………………………………………................. Busses carry 70 people where as trains will carry up to 1500 people. The Project also talks about park and ride future facilities all which can be incorporated in the Doncaster Rail Project. Stations at Kew and Bulleen could benefit with these and a Station in Doncaster would also connect with the Suburban Rail Loop. ………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ptvcommuter Standard buses carry about 75 passengers, articulated buses about 110 passengers and double-articulated buses between 160 and 200 passengers. The tennis centre at the NE corner of Bulleen and Thompsons Road is earmarked as a park-and-ride and is twice the area of the existing Doncaster Park-and-Ride. Exactly what is being proposed is cause for concern, given the recent rejection of a similar unsolicited project from Transdev.
kitchgp


Pretty ridiculous that a bussway will cost 600 million when the train has been costed at between 800 Million and 2-3 Billion. And the bussway will run in the median for most of the way, ludicrous. And it will take until 2027, by then Metro 2 would be surely announced and in construction to make capacity for the route. All you need is a shallow tunnel - cut and cover to Doncaster Hill from Bulleen with a stop at North Balwyn and there’s your Doncaster Rail Line, mostly above ground carrying more passengers and for around double/triple the price of a bussway
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Victoria Park probably has space for four platforms. You can always knock down the eyesore of an oval to make space. I'd rather see shuttles run to Doncaster during peak until Metro 2 opens. Off peak they could just run into the city.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Victoria Park probably has space for four platforms. You can always knock down the eyesore of an oval to make space. I'd rather see shuttles run to Doncaster during peak until Metro 2 opens. Off peak they could just run into the city.
reubstar6
"eyesore of an oval"??? Do you value your front teef???
  loopy Junior Train Controller

I know articulated is a 2 carriage bus, but double articulated bus? I know that must mean 3 carriage bus, but where abouts in Melbourne would a 3 carriage bus operate?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

In its own busway (on the north side of the Eastern Freeway) and terminating at the Doncaster Park-and-Ride. The current largest carries 250 passengers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bi-articulated_bus

There is scant detail about exactly what is being proposed. There was an unsolicited proposal from Transdev about 4 years ago, of which little is known, that involved 150-pass double-articulated buses and paving the Eastern Freeway median strip. The proposal was supposedly rejected. Pure speculation but it probably involved Skyrail for buses down Hoddle Street from the freeway to Victoria Parade.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

Victoria Park probably has space for four platforms. You can always knock down the eyesore of an oval to make space. I'd rather see shuttles run to Doncaster during peak until Metro 2 opens. Off peak they could just run into the city.
"eyesore of an oval"??? Do you value your front teef???
potatoinmymouth
The original tenants of the oval sure as hell didn't.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Doncaster could fit into the current network, you’d need a bit of work to make it happen. 2027 is the finishing date for the North East Link, you would need a train service by then in 9 years time to cover for the huge population in the east and Metro 2 will be well into construction, probably finished by 2032. HCS/In Can Signalling can operate at even 33 TPH, 12 from Mernda, 11 from Hurstbridge, 10 from Doncaster. While the Suburban Rail Loop will give you a Station at Doncaster Hill, there will still be plenty of commuters that want to travel into the city


- Remove the sidings at Victoria Park and introduce High Capacity Signalling
- Reopen Platform 14 at Flinders Street/extend Platform 1 to cover for two 6 Car Sets
- Rebuild Victoria Park with four platforms, close Collingwood
- Either quad or triplicate the Clifton Hill-Flinders St section if possible
- Park and ride Stations at Kew (Chandler Rd) and Bulleen
- Stations also on the line at Balwyn North and Doncaster Hill
- Potential Station at Kew East (Burke Rd)
- Flyover for trains to run anticlockwise via the loop in the morning and reverse at midday

The Line would cost between 800 Million and 3 Billion to contract. A bussway even with double-articulated wouldn’t carry anywhere near what a Doncaster Line would. It would take cars off the Eastern and improve our network. Even if you constructed to Doncaster Park and Ride you would still have tens of thousands of commuters taking the train.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

There is no signalling system in the world that will manage 33tph, with a three-way branch in the middle of it, on a legacy driver-operated system, with 100m+ trains.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

There is no signalling system in the world that will manage 33tph, with a three-way branch in the middle of it, on a legacy driver-operated system, with 100m+ trains.
potatoinmymouth


Or just run it as a shuttle to Victoria Park connecting with an up Hurstbridge Line express train to the city
Would be much better than a bus
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

This rail line will not happen, done to death waste of blog space, better off watching the grass grow or the pain t to dry.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

As much I like the optimistic view of this rail link, at the current stage there is less chance it's happening soon. Here's why?

North East Link will be under construction and make it difficult to fit the new track and stations for this rail link.

The Metro 2 Project has been put on hold at least 2022, and might happen in stages, and more likely the western half will be given priority over the eastern half.

Finally the Suburban rail loop has been given priority.

When it does come in 20 years would probably cater for any demand in the area. The area won't grow or anything, so that orbital rail link may be efficient for the area for many years to come.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

When it does come in 20 years would probably cater for any demand in the area. The area won't grow or anything, so that orbital rail link may be efficient for the area for many years to come.
True Believers


Have you ever been to the area, the population of the city of Manningham is well over 110,000 people and it is growing. The area includes Bulleen (11,000), Lower Tempelstowe (14,000), Tempelstowe (17,000), Doncaster (21,000), Doncaster East (28,000) and Warrandyte (5,600). The area is huge and has plenty of people, for it to not have a rail line is ludicrous. The demand is there and it has been for over 40 years. A rail link is needed now, otherwise the Eastern Fwy will become a traffic sewer.  

The area will keep growing, have you seen the development in Doncaster Hill, it is huge and it has changed the area with the huge number of people moving into the area. There will only be more to come.

https://forecast.id.com.au/manningham/population-summary?WebID=110

Between 2016 and 2036, the population for the City of Manningham is forecast to increase by 26,363 persons (21.45% growth), at an average annual change of 0.98%
  LeroyW Junior Train Controller

Location: Awaiting MM2
When it does come in 20 years would probably cater for any demand in the area. The area won't grow or anything, so that orbital rail link may be efficient for the area for many years to come.


Have you ever been to the area, the population of the city of Manningham is well over 110,000 people and it is growing. The area includes Bulleen (11,000), Lower Tempelstowe (14,000), Tempelstowe (17,000), Doncaster (21,000), Doncaster East (28,000) and Warrandyte (5,600). The area is huge and has plenty of people, for it to not have a rail line is ludicrous. The demand is there and it has been for over 40 years. A rail link is needed now, otherwise the Eastern Fwy will become a traffic sewer.  

The area will keep growing, have you seen the development in Doncaster Hill, it is huge and it has changed the area with the huge number of people moving into the area. There will only be more to come.

https://forecast.id.com.au/manningham/population-summary?WebID=110

Between 2016 and 2036, the population for the City of Manningham is forecast to increase by 26,363 persons (21.45% growth), at an average annual change of 0.98%
ptvcommuter

Wow stop the press - an annual growth rate of 1%??? That would make it not only decidedly below the average growth for Melbourne as a whole (around 3.8% annualy) but way lower than some of these areas growing at 10-20% year on year: 2016-17 Census - Growth Areas. In other words, sure demand is growing, but at a snail's pace compared with the rest of the city.

The bit I really don't understand however is this: Google maps says Doncaster Hill to Box Hill Station is 4km; Bulleen is a similar distance to Heidelberg. I know plenty of people that manage to get to a station from plenty further away than that through the suburbs. Do we really need a new line to the city where every station is within 4-5km of an existing one?

SRL will be Doncaster's rail link I think (if it ever happens).
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Doncaster isn't growing at the rates of the outer Western/Northern and the South East suburbs. And that area isn't that dense and spread out, due to the nature of the location, it's surrounded by a green belt.

If a rail link ever was to be built the orbital loop would be efficient enough to close the gap of transit there. The area is already close by to the Hurstbridge and the Ringwood line, compared to areas like Rowville, Dingley area, and many outer suburban suburbs which are much further away from a train station.

Unfortunately outer suburbs have a piss poor bus service, at least Doncaster has a network of smart bus routes that handle the gap in the PT network.

If the rail loop ever happens to completion, Doncaster wouldn't need a direct link, since areas like Box Hill could easily become a second city in the future.
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
This rail line will not happen, done to death waste of blog space, better off watching the grass grow or the pain t to dry.
trainbrain

Yup..............
But some insist on wishing in one hand and, you know what in the other... Guess whats happened, AND will continue to. Shocked

Talk about flogging a dead horse.

Regards
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
You know, there once was a minister of transport in the Victorian Government standing in front of the media at the North Balwyn Tram terminus.

And one kind reporter asked said minister why trams cannot run to Doncaster Shoppingtown

And the dang fool minister opened her mouth and said the hills were too steep and that engineers could not see a way to get the tram up the hill.

Then one reporter asked her why Tram Road was called so and why Tram Road stopped at Doncaster.

  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Have you ever been to the area, the population of the city of Manningham is well over 110,000 people and it is growing. The area includes Bulleen (11,000), Lower Tempelstowe (14,000), Tempelstowe (17,000), Doncaster (21,000), Doncaster East (28,000) and Warrandyte (5,600). The area is huge and has plenty of people, for it to not have a rail line is ludicrous. The demand is there and it has been for over 40 years. A rail link is needed now, otherwise the Eastern Fwy will become a traffic sewer.
ptvcommuter

Haha.

a/ The demand does not exist, trains would need to run every 20-min in peak to not run empty
b/ If residents are obsessed with trains they can commute to nearby stations like countless others
c/ The inclusion of a railway would do very little to traffic volumes on the Eastern Freeway
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

‘The demand does not exist, trains would need to run every 20-min in peak to not run empty’

90,000 people using the rail line every day. The demand is not there.
Passing through a population of 300 plus thousand, But there will be no demand
This project is better value than the east west, it’s better value than a Busway that can’t transport one quarter of that
If Melbourne wants to move into the future, MM2 and SRL need to happen now


’Doncaster isn't growing at the rates of the outer Western/Northern and the South East suburbs. And that area isn't that dense and spread out, due to the nature of the location, it's surrounded by a green belt’

So your logic is that we don’t need Doncaster because it isn’t growing like Werribee or Mickleham which used to be farmland. Existing population is there, plenty of people off cars as it’s the only option and on to trains. 90,000 per day using the train. And the growth in Doncaster, there needs to be a 10 year challenge for all the large scale property development that happened there. SRL covers orbital, Doncaster covers inner city, no brainer

So by that logic Rowville which is established and has an existing population doesn’t deserve a rail line. But you support it. Which one would more people use, the latter. Which is needed, both.

‘North East Link will cater for it and take up room’

‘No you can keep these extra lanes and have a Rail Line Run in the centre. What’s in place, a bus lane running in the centre. Carrying not even a quarter of the 90,000 that would use Doncaster Rail.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
That post barely qualifies as legible.

Now, Manningham only has a population of 125k, so how are 90k supposed to be using the railway every day?

Geez, the smell of smeg must be overpowering on your end, I don't know how you can stand to be in the room to type this nonsense.

it’s better value than a Busway that can’t transport one quarter of that
ptvcommuter

Do you have any concept of the meaning of the word value?  Is money not part of reality in your world?  A railway may carry more passengers, but that doesn't make it better value than a busway if it costs many, many times more to build, and especially if that capacity isn't even required in the first place.

A heavy railway with rollingstock of that used in Melbourne has a capacity of around 50k/hr in terms of passenger movements.  What need is there to move the entire population of Manningham in just over two hours?


So your logic is that we don’t need Doncaster because it isn’t growing like Werribee or Mickleham which used to be farmland. Existing population is there, plenty of people off cars as it’s the only option and on to trains. 90,000 per day using the train. And the growth in Doncaster, there needs to be a 10 year challenge for all the large scale property development that happened there. SRL covers orbital, Doncaster covers inner city, no brainer
ptvcommuter

We don't need Doncaster because there's a perfectly accessible railway not even 3km to the south.

A railway which is already used by most Manningham commuters to the city, along with the freeway bus service.  How many cars do you actually think Doncaster rail would pull off the freeway in the morning peak.  I know, but I want to see what you think so I can see just how deluded you really are.


Manningham doesn't need an expensive rail link into the city, it doesn't need a ridiculous SRL orbital.  All that's needed are proper, direct, high frequency north-south feeders, along with improvements in priority for the freeway busway, and possibly some tram extensions.  
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

I hate to agree with @ZH on this one, but he is spot on the money.

Consecutive governments have done study after study and they found one thing.

Most people drive or bus to Box Hill or Blackburn. The rail line wouldn’t have a lot of new patronage it would just suck this from the Ringwood group.

These lines are not at or near capacity. When confronted with building a new billion dollar tunnel or better bus services to nearby stations, the government at the time rightly chose the later. (DART)

A 3 or even 10km drive to a station is not unheard of or uncommon, plenty of people in the suburbs will travel this to get to there local station everyday.

If SRL is to be built connecting into Box Hill, a stand-alone rail line to Doncaster will never be built. And frankly it should have never been proposed in the first place, it wasn’t warranted in the 1960’s nor is it now.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

If the Doncaster line was built in the 1960's, the Eastern Freeway wouldn't be at capacity in the peak periods even today.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Actually Eastern Freeway wouldn't be at this capacity if they didn't decide to pump in traffic from the East Link which was built in 2008.

Adding more freeways onto the existing freeway causes more problems than it would solve.

Can't wait to see the 16 billion dollar North East Link to be connected, now the Eastern Freeway will be screwed with traffic coming from the North East too.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Actually Eastern Freeway wouldn't be at this capacity if they didn't decide to pump in traffic from the East Link which was built in 2008.

Adding more freeways onto the existing freeway causes more problems than it would solve.

Can't wait to see the 16 billion dollar North East Link to be connected, now the Eastern Freeway will be screwed with traffic coming from the North East too.
True Believers

I've said this before, but it's worth saying again.

Max Lay, in his history of the CRB, was quite explicit that the road bureaucrats considered the increase in congestion by adding capacity a benefit, not a problem. It simply increased the political pressure for the next road project.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

The North East link is my biggest criticism of the Andrews Government. I thought that they had finally realised that building new toll-roads has little or no positive effect on traffic. $16 billion - there's the western section of Metro 2.
I've got nothing against periodically upgrading suburban roads, especially in the outer suburbs, but adding new freeways to a city which already has one of the world's most comprehensive freeway networks doesn't seem right.
Hopefully, in say twenty year's time, rail will be a lot more attractive (or road will be significantly more unattractive) than today which will improve public perception of rail here.

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