CRC 2-26 as a lubricant

 
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
For ends of axle pin point bearings a standard HB lead pencil (Graphite) is the best way to go. Remove wheels and twirl a slightly blunt HB pencil in the axle box and then replace wheels. Why use this well the brushes of a lot of model train motors use Grahpite brushes in them and they work alright. And as has been said it is dry and does not attract dirt and other muck that causes drag in the end. To reapply it later is a simple thing to do. But all bogies need to have the wheels able to be removed easily so if you have soldered up those tender bogies solid with the wheels trapped in them, you don't stand a real chance at fixing the pick up problem and running ability. If you remake one side of the bolster of the bogie using screws or bolts so that it can be taken apart in future it is much better! Adding proper strip pick ups to the axles or back of wheels is the best alternative though as these can easily be adjusted if necessary to rub more on the axles or wheels, whatever method you use!

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  FirstStopCentral Chief Train Controller

For ends of axle pin point bearings a standard HB lead pencil (Graphite) is the best way to go. Remove wheels and twirl a slightly blunt HB pencil in the axle box and then replace wheels. Why use this well the brushes of a lot of model train motors use Grahpite brushes in them and they work alright. And as has been said it is dry and does not attract dirt and other muck that causes drag in the end. To reapply it later is a simple thing to do. But all bogies need to have the wheels able to be removed easily so if you have soldered up those tender bogies solid with the wheels trapped in them, you don't stand a real chance at fixing the pick up problem and running ability. If you remake one side of the bolster of the bogie using screws or bolts so that it can be taken apart in future it is much better! Adding proper strip pick ups to the axles or back of wheels is the best alternative though as these can easily be adjusted if necessary to rub more on the axles or wheels, whatever method you use!
David Peters

A careful puff of powered graphite will get into those solid tender bogies without pulling wheelsets out.

Paul
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
but has also been found to work by very experienced electrical trades people & use in on their layouts, which to me makes me wonder why they use & reccomend it.
"a6et"
Experience does mean you know what you are doing or are good at what you do. It might just mean they've been doing the wrong thing for a very long time. Like the very experienced electrician I watched wiring a mains junction. He connected the two earth wires and taped them to insulate. Then he connected the two actives together and the two neutrals together, and taped them up to insulate them.

Then came time to power it up. BANG! With a big blue flash and smoke...

He'd forgotten to insulate the actives from the neutrals and instead taped them all together, placing a short across the mains and taking out the circuit breaker back at the meter box...

The fact is, CRC is a water displacement product, the 'electrical properties' it improves are CLEARLY stated, those being restoring resistance and thus reducing leakage - which is a big deal in HV circuitry. None of these problems exist on a layout, so what point is the solution? There isn't a point to it.
  The railway dog Train Controller

Location: Adelaide Hills
Winston Peters &
First Stop
Agreed that wheels should be removable, but when I put these bogies together I didn't fancy my fine soldering skills so they're Araldited together, & 'aint coming apart now. Embarrassingly from the point of an earlier post I made here, I've just remembered the things are cast brass, not whitemetal, but apart from minor differences in conductivity I don't see that affecting the post itself.
Whether or not it's conductive, applying the CRC to the uninsulated side didn't do much good but it's now been fitted with wire pickups there too. And currently it's starting pretty reliably & pottering around the yard at a speed the weariest shunter could probably keep up with.
Will bear in mind the graphite idea, I think I can get a pencil onto the axles with a bit of carving.
The CRC's good stuff though, for cleaning & general electrical use.
  The railway dog Train Controller

Location: Adelaide Hills
Mr Peters
Grovelling apologies for getting your name wrong. Not sure where the reference to NZ politics came from. Will buy you a beer in heaven.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Experience does mean you know what you are doing or are good at what you do. It might just mean they've been doing the wrong thing for a very long time. Like the very experienced electrician I watched wiring a mains junction. He connected the two earth wires and taped them to insulate. Then he connected the two actives together and the two neutrals together, and taped them up to insulate them.

Then came time to power it up. BANG! With a big blue flash and smoke...

He'd forgotten to insulate the actives from the neutrals and instead taped them all together, placing a short across the mains and taking out the circuit breaker back at the meter box...

The fact is, CRC is a water displacement product, the 'electrical properties' it improves are CLEARLY stated, those being restoring resistance and thus reducing leakage - which is a big deal in HV circuitry. None of these problems exist on a layout, so what point is the solution? There isn't a point to it.
Aaron

I do not disagree with you on that, & its a rather good point, as there are many out there that charge professional fees & have their certifications that remind me of the old aspect of getting them from a corn flakes box.

Those I am referring to however, are experienced modellers who know what they are talking about & ultra reliable in many fields of not just standard electricals but also in modelling, which includes a very well respected person involved in DCC & sound instals. He was the person who put me on to the product & uses it himself.

There are similar people in the group with similar & other electrical qualifications also with a wealth of experience in the same area of modeling including decoder & other skills far beyond what I see elsewhere.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
Winston Peters &
First Stop
Agreed that wheels should be removable, but when I put these bogies together I didn't fancy my fine soldering skills so they're Araldited together, & 'aint coming apart now. Embarrassingly from the point of an earlier post I made here, I've just remembered the things are cast brass, not whitemetal, but apart from minor differences in conductivity I don't see that affecting the post itself.
Whether or not it's conductive, applying the CRC to the uninsulated side didn't do much good but it's now been fitted with wire pickups there too. And currently it's starting pretty reliably & pottering around the yard at a speed the weariest shunter could probably keep up with.
Will bear in mind the graphite idea, I think I can get a pencil onto the axles with a bit of carving.
The CRC's good stuff though, for cleaning & general electrical use.
The railway dog

If the bogie sideframes are Araldited to the cross member....that could be contributing to your pick-up problem/s. Araldite DEFINITELY isn't a conductive medium, so the power might be getting from the pinpoints to the sideframes....but there could be a high resistance issue between the sideframes and the cross member (perhaps).

Roachie
  The railway dog Train Controller

Location: Adelaide Hills
Roachie
Well spotted! I hadn't thought of that. Testing over the years with a meter showed conductivity, & obviously there was some because the thing ran. But performance on the layout might've been a different matter. Someone who knows more electrical theory than I might know.
I dimly recall Araldite actually being used as an insulating medium for split axles etc. At least in magazine articles. An axle was chopped in two in a jig & Araldite used to rejoin it. That was the theory anyway.
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
Those I am referring to however, are experienced modellers who know what they are talking about & ultra reliable in many fields of not just standard electricals but also in modelling, which includes a very well respected person involved in DCC & sound instals. He was the person who put me on to the product & uses it himself.

There are similar people in the group with similar & other electrical qualifications also with a wealth of experience in the same area of modeling including decoder & other skills far beyond what I see elsewhere.
a6et

Years of doing it does not necessarily make it right, When I worked at Mitsubishi they used that upholstery restorer (forgot the name) in the rework area, then it was discovered that while it looked good when done it was actually bad for the long term life of the upholstery and it was completely banned from the factory.

How many "experienced" modellers believe that a car tail lamp can fix poor wiring on their DCC layouts? They use it and promote it but that does not make it right.

Tony
  a6et Minister for Railways

Years of doing it does not necessarily make it right, When I worked at Mitsubishi they used that upholstery restorer (forgot the name) in the rework area, then it was discovered that while it looked good when done it was actually bad for the long term life of the upholstery and it was completely banned from the factory.

How many "experienced" modellers believe that a car tail lamp can fix poor wiring on their DCC layouts? They use it and promote it but that does not make it right.

Tony
miktrain

I do not disagree on either point, especially the upholstery cleaner, probably armourall & the many variations to it,

The aspect with the CRC is that its used lightly on the track perhaps around 3 times a year, & its not heaped on by any means, I see other products promoted that I would not in any way use either.

Its a choice & it works for me as it does for the others & they have been using it for years.
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
I do not disagree on either point, especially the upholstery cleaner, probably armourall & the many variations to it,

The aspect with the CRC is that its used lightly on the track perhaps around 3 times a year, & its not heaped on by any means, I see other products promoted that I would not in any way use either.

Its a choice & it works for me as it does for the others & they have been using it for years.
a6et

Ditto for Wahl clipper oil....I've tried it years ago and it improved running qualities.

For the time being I will stick with the graphite "bars"....
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
If anyone actually cares I have been looking a little further into the Stabilant family of electrical conductivity products. I had my doubts if it would work in the model railway environment but it seems it's a little more durable than I first thought.

This stuff helps a lot with aircraft faults, especially in high humidity environments.

While looking over the Stabilant website - http://www.stabilant.com - I noticed that under the application notes it actually mentions model railways. It seems others are using this on their rails - http://www.stabilant.com/appnt27.php - see near bottom of app notes.

I was reading these application notes from an audio website in regards to relay and switching contacts - http://ralaudio.com/stabilant-22-contact-enhancer-m-2.html?info=stban031

While this stuff is on the expensive side, a trial would be interesting. Maybe its use would be good around point work?

Linton
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
If anyone actually cares I have been looking a little further into the Stabilant family of electrical conductivity products. I had my doubts if it would work in the model railway environment but it seems it's a little more durable than I first thought.

This stuff helps a lot with aircraft faults, especially in high humidity environments.

While looking over the Stabilant website - http://www.stabilant.com - I noticed that under the application notes it actually mentions model railways. It seems others are using this on their rails - http://www.stabilant.com/appnt27.php - see near bottom of app notes.

I was reading these application notes from an audio website in regards to relay and swiping contacts - http://ralaudio.com/stabilant-22-contact-enhancer-m-2.html?info=stban031

While this stuff is on the expensive side, a trial would be interesting. May be its use would be good around point work?

Linton
linton78

Nice find Linton,
I think it might be especially useful on rail joiners and point blades, which both break down regularly if extra wiring is not in place to overcome the damage caused by white glue, ballast and corosion in general.
I am certainly interested in this after reading the bit on model railways.
Cheers
Rod


Can it be used on model railroads?Stabilants can not only be used on switch-machine contacts, controller-boards and pulse-code modulation equipment, but many model railroaders are employing it on their tracks in order to reduce the stalling-voltage of locomotives thus obtaining better slow-speed characteristics. Obviously, it can be especially useful on complex control panels and their wiring, including slide and rotary switches, mechanical and electrical sensors, relay and switch machine contacts, wirewound rheostats, and phone jacks.
In DCC "Command-Control" systems, Stabilant 22A is almost essential for trouble-free operation.
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Nice find Linton,
I think it might be especially useful on rail joiners and point blades, which both break down regularly if extra wiring is not in place to overcome the damage caused by white glue, ballast and corosion in general.
I am certainly interested in this after reading the bit on model railways.
Cheers
Rod
"comtrain"



Hi Rod,

Thank Pratt and Whitney. I had not heard of it until reading through one of their maintenance manuals a few years ago. P&WC customer service guys think it's worth using. They speak to many customers.

I will grab a little from work and give it a go. We buy it from Avial if you're interested.

Judging by the little Q&A snippet you found it seems that the Stabilant guys may be into model railways!? They sure seem to know a lot of MR jargon.

Linton
  comtrain Chief Commissioner

Location: Near Albury Wodonga
Thanks mate,
I already sent an email to Betty at Stabilant Smile But I can contact the local and see if it will mail
Thanks again
Cheers
Rod
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
If anyone actually cares I have been looking a little further into the Stabilant family of electrical conductivity products. I had my doubts if it would work in the model railway environment but it seems it's a little more durable than I first thought.

This stuff helps a lot with aircraft faults, especially in high humidity environments.

While looking over the Stabilant website - http://www.stabilant.com - I noticed that under the application notes it actually mentions model railways. It seems others are using this on their rails - http://www.stabilant.com/appnt27.php - see near bottom of app notes.

I was reading these application notes from an audio website in regards to relay and switching contacts - http://ralaudio.com/stabilant-22-contact-enhancer-m-2.html?info=stban031
linton78

From the blurb

Stabilant 22 is an initially non-conductive block polymer which when used in a thin film between metal contacts becomes conductive under the effect of an electrical field.


So it is non conductive until a current flows - simply not possible, non conductive means NO current/electrical field

It has a long-term reliability factor presently unequaled by any simple contact cleaner. That's because Stabilant 22 is a resident treatment. This means that you leave it in place within the contact. There it will last for a very long time,- usually more than the design life of the equipment. Increases in connector reliability of from 10 to 100 times are not unusual.

If it was so good why don't the switch and relay makers just put a little on so their parts would last 100 times longer?

The Stabilants are not recommended for use on circuits which, due to inductive loads, spark upon breaking contact.

That would include the rail/wheel, switch/relay contacts, just about everywhere they claim it is to be used.

From the MSDS

Unusual Fire & Explosion Hazards:
Improperly disposed of Stabilant soaked combustible materials might be subject to spontaneous combustion. Heat may build
internal pressure in container, leading to rupture of container.

Which means the rags may self ignite in the rubbish bin.

Incomparability: Strong oxidizers, also may react with aluminum at high temperatures

Hazardous Polymerization or Reactivity:
Avoid oxidizing materials. Can react violently with potassium oxides and potassium. Can ignite in contact with platinum black catalyst.

From the App notes

If too much Stabilant is used on a contact, there is a potential for the Stabilant t so-completely fill the gap around the point-of-contact that it may overly-cushion the closing contact. If there was excessive surface contamination present before the Stabilant was applied, this capillary action could, as noted, carry the suspended contaminant into the actual point-of-contact area.


Tony
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
From the blurb

Stabilant 22 is an initially non-conductive block polymer which when used in a thin film between metal contacts becomes conductive under the effect of an electrical field.


So it is non conductive until a current flows - simply not possible, non conductive means NO current/electrical field

It has a long-term reliability factor presently unequaled by any simple contact cleaner. That's because Stabilant 22 is a resident treatment. This means that you leave it in place within the contact. There it will last for a very long time,- usually more than the design life of the equipment. Increases in connector reliability of from 10 to 100 times are not unusual.

If it was so good why don't the switch and relay makers just put a little on so their parts would last 100 times longer?

The Stabilants are not recommended for use on circuits which, due to inductive loads, spark upon breaking contact.

That would include the rail/wheel, switch/relay contacts, just about everywhere they claim it is to be used.

From the MSDS

Unusual Fire & Explosion Hazards:
Improperly disposed of Stabilant soaked combustible materials might be subject to spontaneous combustion. Heat may build
internal pressure in container, leading to rupture of container.

Which means the rags may self ignite in the rubbish bin.

Incomparability: Strong oxidizers, also may react with aluminum at high temperatures

Hazardous Polymerization or Reactivity:
Avoid oxidizing materials. Can react violently with potassium oxides and potassium. Can ignite in contact with platinum black catalyst.

From the App notes

If too much Stabilant is used on a contact, there is a potential for the Stabilant t so-completely fill the gap around the point-of-contact that it may overly-cushion the closing contact. If there was excessive surface contamination present before the Stabilant was applied, this capillary action could, as noted, carry the suspended contaminant into the actual point-of-contact area.


Tony
"miktrain"



Don't use it. We use it on 7 million dollar aircraft and we are happy with it. I am sure using a product that affects systems adversely, particularly on fully integrated avionics systems would not be recommended by an aircraft OEM. Could you imagine putting an insulator on the pins of an aircraft flight control computer data bus. People a lot more knowledgable than you would have assessed this stuff.

No current flows through a capacitor yet there is an electric field present. It sounds like it behaves more like a low speed semiconductor.

I have no idea about how it works technically. If I did, I would not be sitting here responding to your post, rather I would be too busy applying the stuff to my own 7 million dollar jet and loving life.

So far nothing has caught on fire in my work place. It doesn't even live in a flam locker. If the alloy connectors on the aircraft are getting hot enough to react with the stuff, I think we have bigger issues.

Thought it was an interesting product and was surprised to see it's use recommended for model trains.

Linton
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
No current flows through a capacitor yet there is an electric field present. It sounds like it behaves more like a low speed semiconductor.
linton78

Current does flow through a capacitor if it did not then they would be of no use in electronics.

Tony
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Current does flow through a capacitor if it did not then they would be of no use in electronics.

Tony
"miktrain"


The basic priciple of a capacitor is that the charge is built up on two plates separated by an insulator (dielectric). In laymans terms current does NOT pass through a capacitor. The capacitor plates become charged electrostatically although as with most things it becomes way to complicated for my brain when you introduce time varying voltages. From memory I think there may be some leakage current however this is no where near operational circuit current. Someone with a more in depth knowledge maybe able to explain. I still probably will not understand!

I just can't believe your absolute rejection of the manufactures claims. Have you used this stuff? I don't think you would have even heard of it until it was mentioned here. An amazing assessment of something with out use or any knowledge!

What would they know hey. Sounds like a scam. Tricked us all, except you.

By the way I have no vested interest in this stuff other than doing less work while at work.

Linton
  miktrain Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide SA
The basic priciple of a capacitor is that the charge is built up on two plates separated by an insulator (dielectric). In laymans terms current does NOT pass through a capacitor. The capacitor plates become charged electrostatically although as with most things it becomes way to complicated for my brain when you introduce time varying voltages. From memory I think there may be some leakage current however this is no where near operational circuit current. Someone with a more in depth knowledge maybe able to explain. I still probably will not understand!

I just can't believe your absolute rejection of the manufactures claims. Have you used this stuff? I don't think you would have even heard of it until it was mentioned here. An amazing assessment of something with out use or any knowledge!
linton78

Here is one person that will tell you otherwise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

It is just that one of their claims seem to oppose the other as I quoted
The Stabilants are not recommended for use on circuits which, due to inductive loads, spark upon breaking contact.


That would include the rail/wheel, switch/relay contacts, just about everywhere they claim it is to be used.


It reminds me of the claims made by those that used to sell the thin plates to put under your carburettor to increase power and fuel economy. At a fraction of a cent each to produce they would have been made and fitted as standard at the factory that spent $$$ trying to get just that little bit more economy or power.


Tony
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
Here is one person that will tell you otherwise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

It is just that one of their claims seem to oppose the other as I quoted
The Stabilants are not recommended for use on circuits which, due to inductive loads, spark upon breaking contact.


That would include the rail/wheel, switch/relay contacts, just about everywhere they claim it is to be used.


It reminds me of the claims made by those that used to sell the thin plates to put under your carburettor to increase power and fuel economy. At a fraction of a cent each to produce they would have been made and fitted as standard at the factory that spent $$$ trying to get just that little bit more economy or power.


Tony
miktrain


A good video. I look at capacitors like having a rubber diapragm half way in a water pipe. As the water flows through the pipe the rubber is stretched to one side. Because it moves to the side it forces the water on the other side to flow also. No actual water moves past the rubber though. Yes there is a movement of water but they are physically separated. Once the diaphragm has reached its limit of stretch, the water flow ceases. The stored energy side of it is when the water pressure is stopped and the diaphragm springs back, which then forced the water to flow in the opposite direction.

It's a funny one as the electrons do not cross the insulator (dielectric). I had a good discussion one day with a lecturer over this. He was hard against no current flowing, which is correct when saying electons do not cross the dielectric. Complicated stuff, particularly with terminology.

Let's go back to your original statement which started the capacitor discussion;

"So it's non conductive until a current flows - simply not possible, non conductive means NO current/electrical field"

This is simply not correct and it is possible. An electric field can be produced over an insulator. You have just proved this by having the video back it up. The dielectric in a capacitor is an insulator just like the Stabilant applied between to conductive parts.


Sure there are plenty of great ideas out there that are gimmicks however the rigore in which this product would have been assessed, to be able to be utilised in aviation (has been TSOd by FAA) would have been thorough. It is a well utilised product that shows real life merit. Can't say too much more about it really.

I am glad you can believe a video off YouTube wholly has an argument but will not trust actual product testing and certification. I guess the internet is always right.

Massively off topic for a CRC topic ha!

Linton
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Here is one person that will tell you otherwise
"miktrain"
He's not the only one! I think that every person with a knowledge of electronics would tell you that current flows through a capacitor. I never thought I'd see a Dave Jones vid on RP! As an Aussie EE I wish I had the same accent. Although on reflection, I could simplify my circuit theories significantly if I could go back and always just make Ic = 0! I am pleased to have the reason for bypass capacitors in audio amps and capacitors in low, high and bandpass filters validated.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
In laymans terms current does NOT pass through a capacitor.
"linton78"
See my previous comments on marketing and 'experienced' people...
  Roachie Chief Commissioner

Location: Kadina SA (formerly NSW)
G'day Linton,

Mate....you may as well give up I reckon!!!

Whilst I agree with you 100% about the real-world proof that that stuff works, you will simply NEVER EVER convince these two boffins who know EVERYTHING.....hahaha.

They will always be right and the rest of us mere mortals will always be wrong.

If I can be bothered to get my A into G over the weekend, I will take a photo of my latest (only?) electronics project......which will give Mr Milktrain and Mr Aaron something to really criticise and/or have a heart attack over!!!

Roachie
  linton78 Train Controller

Location: South Coast NSW
See my previous comments on marketing and 'experienced' people...
"Aaron"


From what I have seen from you're experience it is simply just talk. I am not going to get into this with a bloke that has to announce that his location is a university. You are simply full of it mate.

I work with some of the smartest engineers in the aviation industry. These people are not rude and do not have to announce their intelligence. You would be a really useful guy if you weren't you.

As for capacitor theory, I do not claim to know it all. I was taught an electron does not pass through a capacitor. It simply cannot as they are made around an insulator. That's that. I understand the affect of an electric field creates the measured flow of electrons. Thanks to a great video, displacement current is my new favourite word. I was simply using this example as a method to back a claim that was ridiculously dismissed.

I look forward to meeting you one day at a Radelaide exhibition. Actually no I dont. Would be interesting to see if you are also this rude face to face.

Thanks again for your valuable input.  

Linton

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