Melbourne Metro Rail Project Revived

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Feb 2015 17:54
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

What is criminal is that  under Napthine/Mulder we lost 3 years plus on planning on which a huge amount of work has already been done for Metro rail .  The latest announcement sets up a dedicated Authority to build it and brings forward $ 30m of  $ 300m in 2015/16 budget to expedite planning .

What should now happen in the current drought of big projects is that Government should ASAP put the project to market and see how hungry the big companies are for work.

Funding wise based on a $ 9bn cost then  State has already committed to $ 3bn, and seeks $ 3bn from private sector and $ 3bn from the Feds .

In the case of the Feds  Tony Abbott will not be PM at the next Federal election, and the Co alition highly un-likely to be returned in 18 months, so see that as only a short term issue.

Private  involvement of $ 3bn highly likely with the Property  Development  opportunities the project will open up .  Metro as operator of MTR has huge expertise here that Governemnt should be leveraging .

What should now be happening is to fine tune the scope to fit within a $ 9bn project cost, rather than just let the cost blow out .
We want a good workable  Metro option, NOT a Rolls Royce  option .  We need to be going to market ASAP whilst there is such low construction activity, whilst potential builders are hungry for work .

Ideally  Metro Rail should be built under the same business model as RRL, which saw the project delivered in full a year early, significantly under budget and with minimal industrial disruption .  

In a worst case scenario  Daniel Andrews needs to have made a substantial start on Metro Rail by  2018 election, or it will seal his fate as another One Term Premier, and risk wasting $m again in planning only for the Co alition to go back to their Claytons tunnel .

Finally  Government should explore all options to fund the railway, like  a levy on ratepayers who benefit from the new railway, from businesses who benefit from the new railway, a surcharge on all pax trips passing through the new tunnel etc .  Congestion tax charging for all cars entering the CBD  etc .

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  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
What is criminal is that  under Napthine/Mulder we lost 3 years plus on planning on which a huge amount of work has already been done for Metro rail .  The latest announcement sets up a dedicated Authority to build it and brings forward $ 30m of  $ 300m in 2015/16 budget to expedite planning .
kuldalai
I agree wholeheartedly - both Liberal Premiers faffed around before coming up with East-West and then they wrote a 'poison pill' side-letter to sweeten the deal. Meanwhile there were plenty of other things they could have commenced - they even had some good ideas of their own that they never bothered to follow through on like a tram from Balwyn North to Doncaster and that railway spur to Avalon. If they had their finger on the pulse, particularly in the inner-city, they would have heard that people really wanted improved transit and weren't at all impressed with the road tunnel plan.

The public spoke in November and the clear choice was that they weren't happy with the Napthine plan... now it's well and truly time for Andrews to articulate the alternative.

They have a number of choices to help pay for Swanston Metro of which I'm sure they are considering as we speak. My guess is a possible commercial rates levy (as per the City Loop levy) or perhaps some sort of congestion-associated tax? The budget is only a few months away so if they are serious about getting it under-way as soon as possible then I'm sure it will be spelt out then... I think Andrews is not going to replicate the mistakes of Napthine in waiting till three months out from an election before signing the contracts. I think they will want lots of hard-hat photo ops by 2018 to show the public what they've done.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

By "scared" do you mean they would actually have to quote a realistic figure in the bid, not just some obscene number? And "scared" they would have to sign a fair contract? With penalty clauses that apply to them as well as the government?
Madjikthise

This has to be the stupidest and most idiotic comment I've ever F*cking read whilst in my time being part of Railpage.

All tenders are done to realistic figures, obviously the consortium who won the EWL we're the best positioned to deliver the project (cost, management, previous works etc)

Contractors are PENALIZED when they DON'T deliver on the due date that is set in a contract therefore a contractor is entitled to compensation = 'x' amount of percentage of total lost profits on a time basis (could be 5-10-15-20 years)

No contractor signs a contract unless there is compensation towards them should the client (government, private investor etc) decide to pull the pin, REGARDLESS of the election and who won at the election, the contracts we're signed and must be honored and any lawyer will tell you that, it's the same as when you go sign up for a mobile phone plan, if you cancel early you pay a penalty to the provider.

The EWL was fair and just like any other tender that the government or private investor puts out for tenderer's to price.

By the way, correction, core samples we're paid by the Linking Melbourne Authority which is owned by the government, so all those tests we're done & paid by the government, your taxpayers $$$.

Do not lecture me on the failures that the Liberals left after 3-4 years when they had to fix all the mess 'Dan the man' mates left behind.. The Myki fiasco is an utter disgrace, North South Pipeline... Uhhh hasn't been used and it's been shut down? The smeg?
Desal Plant, yes required in future but it's alot of money to be throwing down the drain weekly...

Meh i give up on some people honestly, there is NO MONEY to fund his Melbourne Metro and the lease agreement that Dan now want's the Liberal government to sign up to fund his Level Crossing's as reported in The Age & Herald Sun is an absolute barnacle in itself... He said everything was 'costed' by his consultants (not done by treasury)... 4 years of shambles to come and alot of broken promises to come, i assure you.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
You seem rather upset, Grosso. Did you have a direct interest in EWLink being completed?

And on a related note, could you please name some infrastructure projects that Ted and Denis started and (perhaps) finished within their 4 years? I can think of one good one - please help me jog my memory on any others.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You seem rather upset, Grosso. Did you have a direct interest in EWLink being completed?

And on a related note, could you please name some infrastructure projects that Ted and Denis started and (perhaps) finished within their 4 years? I can think of one good one - please help me jog my memory on any others.
LancedDendrite
RRL
Sunbury electrification
South Morang extension
Springvale Rd, Rooks Rd, and Mitcham Rd grade separations
M80 Ring Rd Upgrade, including an upgrade of the M80/Tulla interchange
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
RRL
Sunbury electrification
South Morang extension
Springvale Rd, Rooks Rd, and Mitcham Rd grade separations
M80 Ring Rd Upgrade, including an upgrade of the M80/Tulla interchange
railblogger
  1. Started by Labor
  2. On the books for years, not started by the Libs
  3. Started by Labor
  4. Rooks Rd & Mitcham Rd - I'll give you that one.
  5. Surely VicRoads had that in the pipeline for yonks?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
  1. Started by Labor
  2. On the books for years, not started by the Libs
  3. Started by Labor
  4. Rooks Rd & Mitcham Rd - I'll give you that one.
  5. Surely VicRoads had that in the pipeline for yonks?
LancedDendrite
Whoops sorry misread post.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

You seem rather upset, Grosso. Did you have a direct interest in EWLink being completed?

And on a related note, could you please name some infrastructure projects that Ted and Denis started and (perhaps) finished within their 4 years? I can think of one good one - please help me jog my memory on any others.I'
LancedDendrite

I'm actually not part of EWL Consortium in anyway nor did i intend to price up ANY work regarding it.
I don't see the the point in now throwing $1.1 Billion away in compensation and get nothing back in return to just putting in another $2 Billion to commence construction on a road that is going to be built regardless in the next 20 years whether people want it or not as it's in the VicRoads future road planning works.

I'm also annoyed at the fact that Labor would risk ruining Victoria's future contract dealings with contractors should they proceed to rip up this contract as honestly, as i said, Would you as an owner of a business want to proceed to have continued dealings with a client who suddenly decided to cancel your contract regardless how much money you've put into pricing these projects??

I'm all for building the Metro Rail Tunnel but i'm all for the EWL also, the Federal Government isn't going to change it's policy of where the money should be going so i don't see the Metro Rail Tunnel commencing when 'Dan The Man' says as we all know money doesn't grow on trees but in Labor's case it does i suppose..

By the way, thanks for making yourself look like a tool by highlighting my name, real courteous jack smeg.
  Madjikthise Assistant Commissioner

All the penalties are one-way, to the benefit of the contractor. There are plenty of examples of this. Stuff something up, get more money from the government to fix it/do a half arsed job again so you get more money later/don't even finish it at all, etc.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm actually not part of EWL Consortium in anyway nor did i intend to price up ANY work regarding it.
I don't see the the point in now throwing $1.1 Billion away in compensation and get nothing back in return to just putting in another $2 Billion to commence construction on a road that is going to be built regardless in the next 20 years whether people want it or not as it's in the VicRoads future road planning works.

I'm also annoyed at the fact that Labor would risk ruining Victoria's future contract dealings with contractors should they proceed to rip up this contract as honestly, as i said, Would you as an owner of a business want to proceed to have continued dealings with a client who suddenly decided to cancel your contract regardless how much money you've put into pricing these projects??
Grosso
The latest rumour I read yesterday is that they can probably limit the compensation payable to $200 million or so... apparently the government's legal advice is now that the Liberal Treasurer's side note guaranteeing big $$$ payment on cancellation should entitle the companies to 'reasonable compensation' (like is says in the constitution), not a windfall situation. I agree that this is still bad policy but then the contracts should have been signed 18 months before the election, not three months. I don't think any businesses interested in that contract can pretend that they weren't aware of the political situation of it being an election issue. Isn't that what the Liberals' side note was establishing - come and sign this contract and you'll be rewarded with riches regardless of the status after November?

Dan Andrew's policy to cancel was not a state secret.

By the way, thanks for making yourself look like a tool by highlighting my name, real courteous jack smeg.
Grosso
I don't believe this was intended as an insult, I think he was specifically asking you a question.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

This has to be the stupidest and most idiotic comment I've ever F*cking read whilst in my time being part of Railpage.

All tenders are done to realistic figures, obviously the consortium who won the EWL we're the best positioned to deliver the project (cost, management, previous works etc)

Contractors are PENALIZED when they DON'T deliver on the due date that is set in a contract therefore a contractor is entitled to compensation = 'x' amount of percentage of total lost profits on a time basis (could be 5-10-15-20 years)

No contractor signs a contract unless there is compensation towards them should the client (government, private investor etc) decide to pull the pin, REGARDLESS of the election and who won at the election, the contracts we're signed and must be honored and any lawyer will tell you that, it's the same as when you go sign up for a mobile phone plan, if you cancel early you pay a penalty to the provider.

The EWL was fair and just like any other tender that the government or private investor puts out for tenderer's to price.

By the way, correction, core samples we're paid by the Linking Melbourne Authority which is owned by the government, so all those tests we're done & paid by the government, your taxpayers $$$.

Do not lecture me on the failures that the Liberals left after 3-4 years when they had to fix all the mess 'Dan the man' mates left behind.. The Myki fiasco is an utter disgrace, North South Pipeline... Uhhh hasn't been used and it's been shut down? The smeg?
Desal Plant, yes required in future but it's alot of money to be throwing down the drain weekly...

Meh i give up on some people honestly, there is NO MONEY to fund his Melbourne Metro and the lease agreement that Dan now want's the Liberal government to sign up to fund his Level Crossing's as reported in The Age & Herald Sun is an absolute barnacle in itself... He said everything was 'costed' by his consultants (not done by treasury)... 4 years of shambles to come and alot of broken promises to come, i assure you.
Grosso
Ahh Compensation clause! Didnt the Liberal Government chastise the previous ALP Govt for a Compensation clause made to Tattersalls regarding gaming licenses. Ah it is alright for Libs but not for the ALP.

Agreed, Yes Myki is not a great system, no it is crap. As regards to the Desal Plant, no one could have predicted that Melbourne would have the rainfall that has pulled us out of drought. When the thing was built we was in the grips of a severe drought.

As I have said elsewhere, I am not a fan of the Melbourne Metro, because I think it is absolute folly to graft new infrastructure on to an fragile creaking commuter rail system. Get the existing infrastructure up to scratch first. Like a signalling system that is not prone to failures, decent trains not that Xtrapolis rubbish and complete remodelling of some stations.

Michael
  ewokracing Locomotive Fireman

If Dan is clever he will use bidding on the Melbourne Metro as a sweetener to get the E-W consortium to drop their legal action. And there's no shortage of potential local and international bidders for that scale of work even if the E-W people took their bat and went home.
don_dunstan

The back room deals have already been in progress since Dan won.

If the construction companies drop their claims or settle for a far smaller amount, their tenders for the next big projects will go straight to the top. It's pretty much a done deal as far as I was told.
  jamesadams7 Station Master

I came here to discuss Melbourne Metro Rail, but it seems all you folk seem to do is scream your partisan lines.

I don't think the issue with MMR is the state funding, or even the federal funding (as I assume either the Abbott Government will change their tact on urban rail, or there'll be a change of leadership). Instead, it's the 1/3 private funding that's a concern.

Not because of East-West Link, but because of interstate projects. Think of the Airport Rail Links in Sydney and Brisbane, along with the variety of road tunnels in those cities built as PPPs. All the consortiums went broke, in one case, twice. The unfortunate fact is that there is very little scope for private companies to make money off public-private partnerships, unless the government is completely screwed over and ends up paying more than if they built it themselves (a la Desalination Plant and Peninsula Link).

Instead, the state and federal governments should go half-half in funding MMR. Yes, $5.5 billion each is a lot of money, but it's the cheapest option in the medium to long term.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
What you mean?!
He introduced more free public transport to the CBD!
Burke Road Grade Seperation works and an updated Timetable...
Oh wait, that was the Liberals, never mind..
Grosso

What happened to Southland & Caroline Springs stations...not to mention the cuts to the RRL... IE the flyovers for the Bendigo line at Albion and the flyover for the new Geelong line at Robinsons Road...cancelled to make the bottom line look good.

But it didn't save them from being a 1 term wonder...
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

What is criminal is that  under Napthine/Mulder we lost 3 years plus on planning on which a huge amount of work has already been done for Metro rail .  The latest announcement sets up a dedicated Authority to build it and brings forward $ 30m of  $ 300m in 2015/16 budget to expedite planning .

What should now happen in the current drought of big projects is that Government should ASAP put the project to market and see how hungry the big companies are for work.

Funding wise based on a $ 9bn cost then  State has already committed to $ 3bn, and seeks $ 3bn from private sector and $ 3bn from the Feds .

In the case of the Feds  Tony Abbott will not be PM at the next Federal election, and the Co alition highly un-likely to be returned in 18 months, so see that as only a short term issue.

Private  involvement of $ 3bn highly likely with the Property  Development  opportunities the project will open up .  Metro as operator of MTR has huge expertise here that Governemnt should be leveraging .

What should now be happening is to fine tune the scope to fit within a $ 9bn project cost, rather than just let the cost blow out .
We want a good workable  Metro option, NOT a Rolls Royce  option .  We need to be going to market ASAP whilst there is such low construction activity, whilst potential builders are hungry for work .

Ideally  Metro Rail should be built under the same business model as RRL, which saw the project delivered in full a year early, significantly under budget and with minimal industrial disruption .  

In a worst case scenario  Daniel Andrews needs to have made a substantial start on Metro Rail by  2018 election, or it will seal his fate as another One Term Premier, and risk wasting $m again in planning only for the Co alition to go back to their Claytons tunnel .

Finally  Government should explore all options to fund the railway, like  a levy on ratepayers who benefit from the new railway, from businesses who benefit from the new railway, a surcharge on all pax trips passing through the new tunnel etc .  Congestion tax charging for all cars entering the CBD  etc .
kuldalai
I hate to Labour a point but, Ideally there should be NO Melbourne Metro until the existing Infrastructure is Modernised

Michael
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I hate to Labour a point but, Ideally there should be NO Melbourne Metro until the existing Infrastructure is Modernised

Michael
mejhammers1
While I agree with you on the modernisation of the train network, I think it would be better to do that while the metro tunnel is under planning and construction rather than before, since many of the projects required would serve as an intermediate solution to our capacity problems.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Dan Andrews was on 3AW this morning saying that the Metro Rail tunnel will be built 10m under Swanston St (the shallow option).  Sounds like a "cut-and-shut" to me if I'm not mistaken.
  gmanning1 Locomotive Driver

Location: Sydney
Dan Andrews was on 3AW this morning saying that the Metro Rail tunnel will be built 10m under Swanston St (the shallow option).  Sounds like a "cut-and-shut" to me if I'm not mistaken.
Carnot
Until you get to the river. That part is still under investigation apparently.

Where the hell are they going to divert the trams that run bumper to bumper along that road?

I suppose just splitting the routes in half might work with a smeg-load of shuttle buses doing bog-laps around the Flinders/Elizabeth/La Trobe/Russell Streets.

What a frigging nightmare?
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
The Swanston St traders might as well close up for the 5 or so years of Dan's cut and fill.   Compensation - or is that a dirty word??
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The Swanston St traders might as well close up for the 5 or so years of Dan's cut and fill.   Compensation - or is that a dirty word??
Donald
This is pure Herald-Sun alarmist clap-trap. The same pathetic excuse used by Napthine to not build the Metro where it was most needed.

London's CrossRail was done completely by tunnel boring machines and in places it was very shallow and/or went past existing infrastructure with very tight clearances. With the extremely accruate laser-guided technology available today it would be much less disruptive and more cost-effective to use TBM's for the entire length of the route.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
This is pure Herald-Sun alarmist clap-trap. The same pathetic excuse used by Napthine to not build the Metro where it was most needed.

London's CrossRail was done completely by tunnel boring machines and in places it was very shallow and/or went past existing infrastructure with very tight clearances. With the extremely accruate laser-guided technology available today it would be much less disruptive and more cost-effective to use TBM's for the entire length of the route.
don_dunstan
Will it disrupt the traders for several years?  Yes.  No matter how accurate the machines are, the shops will still have to be shut for at least a couple of years!
Time to hear from the public transport supporters - no trams on the busiest tram route in the world for a couple of years.   That will help with the congestion!!!
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Will it disrupt the traders for several years?  Yes.  No matter how accurate the machines are, the shops will still have to be shut for at least a couple of years!
Time to hear from the public transport supporters - no trams on the busiest tram route in the world for a couple of years.   That will help with the congestion!!!
Donald
How can tunnel boring possibly disrupt what happens on the surface?
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
This is pure Herald-Sun alarmist clap-trap. The same pathetic excuse used by Napthine to not build the Metro where it was most needed.

London's CrossRail was done completely by tunnel boring machines and in places it was very shallow and/or went past existing infrastructure with very tight clearances. With the extremely accruate laser-guided technology available today it would be much less disruptive and more cost-effective to use TBM's for the entire length of the route.
don_dunstan
Agree 100%.  I think the MURL in places is only 10m deep.  Pretty sure it could be done without disrupting Swanston St.  As initially it has to go below the Yarra and below the existing platforms at FSS.
  MtBeenak Train Controller

Well, there is a sign of changing times.  Dan the Man is apologising for stuffing things up before they start, rather than waiting until they are thrown out of office and trying to get back in.  This must be a new ALP tactic..."Hmm, we are going to spend a fortune and get it wrong, let's just admit it before we start and maybe it will leave us in Opposition for less time..."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-16/metro-rail-tunnel-to-be-built-under-swanston-street/6396754

Mr Andrews confirmed the project would result in major disruptions.
"There'll be some years where Swanston Street will be significantly disrupted and we'll have to put alternative tram routes in place," he said.
He said CBD traders who were affected by the road closure could be compensated.
  Trainplanner Chief Commissioner

Location: Along the Line
Mt Beenak.  Isn't this a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't plotical /media nonsense.   Yes there will be disruption in Swanston Street and there will have to be diversions and changes to Trams but it can be managed.   If Dan had been silent about the disruption he would have been damned.   now hes being open that there will be disruption and hes still damned.   Sigh.

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