The East West Link, a question

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
They are going to need a lot of work into the future and soon.
bevans
I sure hope tollway users foot the bill for that and not tax-payers... it wouldn't surprise me if the operators tried to get public money for recurring maintenance on their private project.

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  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
What is desperately required and has been for years is an intermodal terminal at near Dandenong. Salta wanted to build one.  Where has that project gone?
bevans

Bunnings moved into their distribution centre there not long ago.

http://www.reliveit.com.au/latest-news/bunnings-interport-camera-system/
http://www.salta.com.au/section/news/57/
  Divine3801 Station Master

The East West Link is a reflection of the conduct of Napthine, and as long as Guy and O'Brien continue with their foul attitude, should remain pinned on them as zero credibility in any portfolio and position in parliament.

Nobody can dismiss the business case's findings of the project itself, that it's own statement to toll the west gate bridge, toll the entire eastern freeway and the CBR being used as a justification to reject the project. This will be why Infrastructure Australia did not get the full business case.

There is a federal auditor general investigation abbotts decision to approve, as they too declared they will commit funding despite what was said in the business case that we now know, that instead of being able to promote it gave us an ominous warning to proceeding.

The public must maintain wisdom, logic and we as the people of Victoria cannot allow politicians to treat us with contempt. Democracy's intention is to promote the preservation and advancement of humanity, it's not just transport, it is also everything else that is required and necessary to commit to the functioning and development of society.

This East West Link of 2014 is the platform and the stage, a stage that all the Victorian people are on, to present to us the breakdown and collapse of standards, responsibility and abuse of electorates. It demonstrates what's in peril and what is necessary to maintain stability for our society, democracy, and in it, the elements that make it one, which is, accountability, responsibility, honesty. This is to name a few.

We had to put up with co-ordinated propaganda campaigns going to Napthine election advertisements, mouthing the airport rail link two election cycles away, prolific partisan attacks from Murdoch owned papers all to aggressively indoctrinate us and an uncommitted Labor opposition then. They would also be influenced two months from the election to make a strong statement and follow through with it in faith, and that will be because so many various protest groups organized themselves and co-ordinated their protests and brought awareness to all the communities affected, they would go ahead to pry the entire abomination of the problem wide open to the public and co-ordinate the information of the real danger originating from Napthine.

They did an amazing job with their efforts putting up all the relevant questions that were constantly being avoided by Napthine, their persistence was extraordinary and the councils even complimented these groups with an award. But the tragic reflection is that, this was a fiasco that should never have happened, protesting for something black and white, such as this duded road project. A business case that effectively shoots it's own project's credibility and yet they still go ahead with it and Guy, says he didn't read it in court when the councils sued to get a look at it!?

It's not the East West Link, rail project or any infrastructure project which is the problem here, the toll road is hardly the problem at all, it is the persistent conduct of hiding, deception, arrogance, political inteference, corruption that is the center of this chaotic fiasco and it involved a project that had a vast amount of taxpayers money being spent away for no revenue to profit at all.

If your going to build this East West Link, show us a business case that proves to us it's viability and necessity for our society.

This is the alarming reflection of allowing them to continue running government with every other decision, in any role of government business and operations looking after our people.

The public need to develop effective vigilance and place their demands on these politicians, keeping them on track and answerable to us, not whoever has selfish, narcissistic agendas leaving us all picking up after the carnage, setting us even further back before square 1.

The public's weapon against these dogs and con men are their vigilance, determination and that comes from ensuring they have developed wisdom and facts being supplied to them to counter the deception and illusions being constantly forced down into their throats.

Keep our current government accountable, ensure they are on notice, but encourage them when they do take the right direction and are making the decisions we want. Vigilance is essential as the right direction must be clarified as not an ulterior agenda.

Most importantly of all, we must be able to maintain our access to information and factual evidence, independent experts, assessing the conduct of the people in charge of government etc, or we are just puppets blindly obeying and approving anything without rigorous analysis and observation of all process and procedures being followed.

This is what all of us can take and learn from the East West Link of 2014.

Moving on today from this day fourth, the cursed opposition leader and treasurer must be held to account, as this conduct in relation to the east west link must be held against them. The side letter further strengthens condemnation to their conduct.

Murdoch owned papers continue to run a campaign of bias and neglect the facts. This not journalism, this is propaganda machination for indoctrinating voters to the liberals, they never were, and never will be a source of credible information for the public in this whole mess.

The public spoke out on November 29th 2014, the business case sides with those who reject this catastrophic, foolish pathway and no amount of bickering, slandering, backstabbing, blackmailing will ever bury and twist the factual evidence that has reached the surface. It will also not save any credibility for Napthine, Guy and O'Brien, these names will always be consigned as the ones who would be willing to sell our state out to blackmail the Victorian public to voting for them. They are a curse to Victorian Government and the Victorian people.

Our leaders of the states and nations are meant to be advancing society and upholding every individual's equality to be respected and their place in continuing human life well sustained and developed equally. They are meant to be there to put the correct pathways to which they have been entrusted the privilege for us. When they finally leave, they are meant to be putting the nation in a better position than it was before, they are meant to maintain and sustain all necessary and related services for our living needs. They are meant to lead us into the future in a better place in this world than before when they finish their time up as an MP.

The Prime Ministerial Office today is missing all of this, it urgently needs it's administrator to be replaced swiftly, it has no hope of presenting any elements of leadership, instead it helplessly opens up our nation to a void of shame, embarrassment, destruction, obscenity, instability and paralysis.

Look at him running around hopelessly trying to fill and plug the fissures, only that they fall out and cause the cracks to further expand.

This transport policy and solution has a clear answer, it's black and white, even Napthine's then transport planners signalled to him it was where it should have gone, metro rail tunnel, and yet this captain abbott, gives childish responses despite his statement of the east west link as a referendum in the election.

If you make stupid and foolish decisions like this on transport policy, even refusing to fund commuter rail, how much hope do we have of him engaging in international business dealings with other countries!?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Big surprise to hear about another new road project, the Western Distributor
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/daniel-andrews-announces-second-river-crossing-freeway-costing-5b-to-be-built-by-2020-20150430-1mwm4j.html

How is it that yesterday is the first anyone has ever heard of it, and yet they will be ready to start construction this year, and be finished by 2020? We'll be lucky if they've even started digging Melbourne metro by then. Sigh.

Having said all that, this particular project does seem to make more sense than the previous western section of East West Link (stage 2).

The western section was to link the Western Ring Rd to CityLink, branching off WRR near Boundary Rd, heading east at grade to around Tottenham, and then entering a ~4.5km tunnel under Footscray and Maribyrnong river to around Dock Link Rd or Footscray Rd, for a total length ~11km.
A possibly separate component was the port connection, a new viaduct paralel to CityLink on the west side, through Kensington to meet EWL stage 1.
It went through a few names and plans (it started as WestLink under the last Labor gov), and a final route was never decided on AFAIK.
Diagrams:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/napthine-governments-multibilliondollar-superhighway-from-citylink-to-western-ring-road-for-reelection/story-fni0fit3-1226746300023
http://www.publictransportnottraffic.org/ewl_terms
Also marked in 2014 Melway.

The Melway marks intermediate interchanges at Market Rd, Brooklyn, and Paramount Rd Tottenham only. These seem to me to be reasonably close to existing interchanges on the West Gate FWY, so I'm not sure that they're particularly important to the project's viability.
Assuming they aren't, EWL western section looks almost as wasteful as the eastern section, when compared to the new Western Distributor!

TL;DR

Why make a new 11km road with a 4.5km long tunnel, when you can link the same roads more efficiently using just 6km, and only 2.5km of tunnel? Instead of a new road from the WRR/Western FWY, it adds new lanes to the West Gate FWY for the same length.

How is it that we've only just heard about this new route, which is much cheaper and seems to more efficiently link the 2 roads (and provide a second third fourth fifth river crossing)? Why was this route not proposed earlier by the (now defunct) Linking Melbourne Authority?

Why don't we have transparent transport planning?!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
From the ALP 2014 election policy, Pages 53 & 54...

https://www.viclabor.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Victorian-Labor-Platform-2014.pdf

Integrated transport planning

Victoria is suffering from a transport infrastructure backlog. Expertise and independent advice to Government is needed to ensure better long term planning for and delivery of large-scale transport infrastructure projects.

Labor’s new approach will take the politics out of transport infrastructure planning. New independent agencies Infrastructure Victoria and Projects Victoria will develop and oversee the delivery of large-scale transport projects that will transform our road and rail networks.

All Victorians benefit from improvements in our national and urban road and rail systems – through reduced congestion, increased productivity, happier communities and better environmental outcomes. This stands in stark contrast to the Coalition Government’s secretive conduct around the proposed East-West tunnel.

Many benefits will flow from having a long-term, strategic and coordinated transport plan. Supporting better decision making.

In addition to the work of Infrastructure Victoria, Labor will:

• Take a long term, strategic and coordinated approach to transport planning and engage in meaningful consultation.

• Restore transparency to decision making, seek expert advice and deliver the right projects at the right time, for the right price.

• Enhance the consumer and workforce voice within Public Transport Victoria decision making.


• Establish a Ministerial consultative group including public transport users, network operators, the RACV, unions, industry and local government.

• Work with VicRoads on noise wall policy to better protect the health and wellbeing of residents on adjoining roads.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
How is it that yesterday is the first anyone has ever heard of it, and yet they will be ready to start construction this year, and be finished by 2020? We'll be lucky if they've even started digging Melbourne metro by then. Sigh.
bramt

The Western Distributor was tendered in January and has been on the cards for years.

Transurban has just come on and offered a superior proposal to the original (ramps plus arterial upgrades) at potentially no cost to the State (since the project meets Commonwealth port freight visions).
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
The Western Distributor was tendered in January and has been on the cards for years.

Transurban has just come on and offered a superior proposal to the original (ramps plus arterial upgrades) at potentially no cost to the State (since the project meets Commonwealth port freight visions).
ZH836301
At what cost?

People using the current citylink would have pay tolls for a road they may not use for another 10 -15  years!
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Yes
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
At what cost?

People using the current citylink would have pay tolls for a road they may not use for another 10 -15  years!
melbtrip
$3 for cars (todays $) according to the HS.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
People using the current citylink would have pay tolls for a road they may not use for another 10 -15  years!
melbtrip

So?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
So?
ZH836301
Isn't it true that the government will have to foot the bill if the toll road doesn't make enough money?
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

The Western Distributor was tendered in January and has been on the cards for years.

Transurban has just come on and offered a superior proposal to the original (ramps plus arterial upgrades) at potentially no cost to the State (since the project meets Commonwealth port freight visions).
ZH836301

Yes I know, extra ramps from the West Gate FWY were an ALP election promise.
My point was that this is quite a different project to what was promised (it's a lot better, sure), we're only hearing about it now and yet it's already ready to go?
It has greater benefits than the previous promise, in fact benefits seemingly as good as the previous WestLink/ EWL stage 2 at a much shorter distance & lower price, so why didn't anyone propose this earlier?

Lurching from one project to another is no way to plan infrastructure. Seems to run against the ideas behind the promised Infrastructure Victoria.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
So?
ZH836301
My personal view - The west gate freeway should always be a freeway and not a toll road.

People using city link should NOT be paying to build this toll road at all.

The state government should be looking at getting back old parts of the freeway (part of the deal with Citylink) so it free up traffic on local streets in the suburbs like Moreland.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Oh I forgot, Laaaara.

The West Gate Fwy toll would only apply to trucks - Williamstown Rd-Tulla would be $3 for cars, as per Bolte Bridge.

As for the extension of existing tolls, who gives a krap.

(Also, there is no suburb called Moreland.)
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
I do care - it adds cost to the good and services for a business and which gets pass on to the customer.

People driving on city link should not have to foot the bill for this road by extension of the city link tollway system for another 10 to 15 years.

The government should build and pay for westlink and not build this useless road and which does not nothing other then make money for city link.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner


The government should build and pay for westlink and not build this useless road and which does not nothing other then make money for city link.
melbtrip
Are you saying this proposal is substantially different to Westlink? In what way?
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

You have to laugh at the ideological contortions and aerobatics being shown by the conservative media and their associated stooges on the issue of tolls. Before 29th November 2014, tolls were the "way forward", but now apparently they are the "way backwards." Complete idiots like Terry McCrann in the HUN, who is being parroted by Victoria's Dodgy Brothers (Guy and O'Brien), were quite happy to have a tunnel built where the builders and owner refused to reveal the toll levels before the election. And what might they have been?

The contract to build the 4.4 km tunnel was for $5.3 billion. The state government also spent $1.3 billion on associated work (drilling, design, tendering etc).  That makes $6.6 billion. That does not include the "access" costs contained in the contract that were only revealed after the election, amounting to an additional payment from the government to the consortia of $4 billion (in 2014 dollars). So we know that the consortia was going to shell out $5.3 billion of "their own" money i.e. money borrowed from banks (who borrow money from ordinary people).

This is the most expensive tunnel built anywhere ever. Just why it is so expensive is a mystery to me. In London, Crossrail is 118 km of new line, 42 km of which is in new tunnels. There are ten new stations. The cost is just over £15 billion, which is about $30 billion. Something doesn't add up. To recoup "their" $5.3 billion, even with the rosiest traffic projections, the EWL consortia would have needed a toll of the order of $10 per trip, and that's just for cars. But to be fair, EWL (there never was going to be a stage 2) was all about cars getting to the airport from Balwyn and Doncaster. Saving 5 minutes on trip to the airport so that more time could be spent in the bar, was apparently worth $10 billion.

Everything that is new is "tolled" to some extent. There is either an unseen universal toll (e.g. taxes) or an upfront user pays toll or a combination of both. The trucking industry never pays its "fair share" even with large tolls. Their deleterious effect on roads (and therefore on maintenance costs) is twenty times that of cars. But, we need the trucks to make our community and economy function. Ideas like using rail instead are just fantasy. Even places where rail is well funded (like Germany) have increased road delivery use and reduced rail connections (except in ports). So we need to subsidise trucks or be prepared to pay for large increases in goods.

The project proposed by CityLink (an unsolicited proposal) needs to be examined carefully. Clearly, the need is there. This was always the only part of the East West road that made economic sense. I would prefer an open tender, for which CityLink can bid. Part of their bid could be deferment of payment via extension of toll rights for the rest of CityLink. That would provide some measure of competition and transparency, although it seems that, in Australia anyway, those two concepts take a back seat to political imperatives.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
This is the most expensive tunnel built anywhere ever. Just why it is so expensive is a mystery to me. In London, Crossrail is 118 km of new line, 42 km of which is in new tunnels. There are ten new stations. The cost is just over £15 billion, which is about $30 billion. Something doesn't add up. To recoup "their" $5.3 billion, even with the rosiest traffic projections, the EWL consortia would have needed a toll of the order of $10 per trip, and that's just for cars. But to be fair, EWL (there never was going to be a stage 2) was all about cars getting to the airport from Balwyn and Doncaster. Saving 5 minutes on trip to the airport so that more time could be spent in the bar, was apparently worth $10 billion.


That's why North - East Link is needed. North East would take cars from the inner city street and place them where they belong and the is on a freeway.

The difference between Westlink and western distributor road is the following:

Westlink does not use the Westgate freeway and does not place tolls on the Westgate freeway and allows for the East - West link to complete at a later date.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner



The difference between Westlink and western distributor road is the following:

Westlink does not use the Westgate freeway and does not place tolls on the Westgate freeway and allows for the East - West link to complete at a later date.
melbtrip
Instead of a new connection, it uses new lanes on the existing Westgate freeway. That sounds like an advantage rather than a disadvantage to me - no property acquisition, no impact on residents, no NIMBYs, etc.
It also ends a the same place as Westlink - Footscray Rd/Dock Link Rd. So I'm not sure how it makes any difference to the possible completion of EWL.

New tolls on the Westgate would be for trucks only.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
For some clarification, the once proposed Western section of the East West Link (that Abbott pledged $1.5 Billion for, but Is locked In a box now) was not part of the contract signed by the former Liberal Government for the link between the Eastern Freeway and the Tullamarine Freeway.

This once proposed Western section going via the maps provided seamed a bit odd ! as It was Freeway standard from the Western Ring Road near the Western Freeway Interchange, and headed East going Into a tunnel at West Footscray and this tunnel seamed to remerged In the middle of the PN Locomotive Positioning Centre, go through a bit of the railyards before meeting what looked like a new Dock Link Road (where the link would end at a T Intersection) this new Dock Link Road joined Footscray Road and Dynon Road.

A section of the stage one link that was to run parallel to the Western Link (City Link) from Parkville to Footscray Road (blending Into Footscray Road too) was deleted from the plan (due to planning Issues, newly opened Guide Dog Training Centre to be shadowed by elevated roadways)

Some people In the media are calling this Westgate distributer the West East Link (the same project linking the Eastern Freeway "that was killed by Andrews" but restarted from the West)
  8502 Junior Train Controller

The coalition have announced the EWLINK is now back on their policy agenda.  

Has it occurred to many this is flogging a dead horse when considered the coalition took this to two loosing elections?
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The coalition have announced the EWLINK is now back on their policy agenda.  

Has it occurred to many this is flogging a dead horse when considered the coalition took this to two loosing elections?
8502
Elections don't decide one issue.

Was the last election a referendum on increasing train frequencies? Because this current Labor government doesn't give two sh!ts about increasing train frequencies outside of peak hours, but it's been the Liberal policy since government when they started to introduce 10min services.

(10min to Dandenong being extended from 7pm to 10pm doesn't count, when the west is still stuck on 40mins before 10am weekends).
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Railpage Australia™.... not Road page.

Cant believe that we have dug up a 2018 thread about a bloody road.

All this highlights is as expected the opposition is on the back foot. Labor has pretty much covered every major rail project, then iced it with the SRL. It leaves nothing in the cupboard for the opposition to announce. Even if they did, they have no credibility; like them or not Labor has delivered billions in major projects over the last 8 years. Come election time, Andrews can just point to everything he has built compared to sweet FA during the Liberals four years in power.

As for EWL, they are preaching to the choir. Liberal voters in outer suburbs that think EWL will somehow make their journey better. Labor is under attack from the Greens in Richmond, Northcote, Hawthorn. Liberals bringing this back to life will only help Labor sandbag seats against the Greens.

I would expect Labor to counter this come election time with a massive active transport spend. Lots more protected inner city bike lanes, more pedestrian friendly spaces, and upgrades to the tram network; which carries just as many people as the heavy rail network.

Lockie
  8502 Junior Train Controller

I did not mean to offend.

I am working on the code here and wanted to participate in a discussion.  I think the EWLINK would take a way funding from rail transport projects.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The coalition have announced the EWLINK is now back on their policy agenda.  

Has it occurred to many this is flogging a dead horse when considered the coalition took this to two loosing elections?
Elections don't decide one issue.

Was the last election a referendum on increasing train frequencies? Because this current Labor government doesn't give two sh!ts about increasing train frequencies outside of peak hours,
John.Z

HELLOOoo Exclamation

An astounding 40 minute off peak train service here since January.

M.

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