The East West Link, a question

 
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Speaking of re-purposing, I heard a rumour that the government will get a pair of tunnel boring machines as part of the deal?

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  toholio Station Master

I wonder what the interest rate is on that credit facility...
LancedDendrite
Pretty low you'd imagine given interest rates and the state's credit rating.
  bevans Site Admin
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
20% + ?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Pretty low you'd imagine given interest rates and the state's credit rating.
toholio
Given that it was established by a private consortium, I'm not so sure. As I said, I'd be interested in seeing what it actually was vs state government bonds.

As for the TBMs:
They're pair of 15m diameter TBMs - very large for a rail tunnel! You could run 4 sets of tracks in the one tunnel, in fact. Complete overkilll, given that there's two of them. I'm also unsure as to whether they are owned by the consortium so they might not come as part of the deal. I can't recall if the ground conditions are similar for the Melbourne Metro tunnel alignment compared to East-West Link either, given the former's proximity to the Yarra River in parts.

But if the price is right....
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
Another thing to note, the $300 odd million that is being mentioned has already been paid to the consortium by the previous government.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
There's a big sook from the Herald-Sun about the decision tonight. They are using the figure of $640 million and they're frothing away about how we're doomed without it (for some reason).

Terry McCrann has already penned an article calling it 'Desal plant number two'.

My advice to them is to accept that Napthine couldn't get elected on that platform and that they need to forget about it.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
There's a big sook from the Herald-Sun about the decision tonight. They are using the figure of $640 million and they're frothing away about how we're doomed without it (for some reason).

Terry McCrann has already penned an article calling it 'Desal plant number two'.

My advice to them is to accept that Napthine couldn't get elected on that platform and that they need to forget about it.
don_dunstan

Fortunately as the 2014 election showed, punters pay little heed to the bleatings of both the Herald-Sun and the Age regards recommended voting intentions...both papers strongly endorsed a vote for Denis.

Terry McCrann is so far to the right of the political spectrum he would be right at home with the looney Tea party in US politics.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
My advice to them is to accept that Napthine couldn't get elected on that platform and that they need to forget about it.
don_dunstan

And today Don the opposition leader (the man who does not yet shave) stated to the Age Newspaper the Libs would not rule out building it if they won future government.  This comment absolutely expresses how delusional the liberal party have become.

They lost the election (arguably) on the promise to build a road to nowhere and instead of accepting the decision of the umpire they have decided to push the barrow again. Incredible.  They just don't get it.


Terry McCran should write children's books.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
And today Don the opposition leader (the man who does not yet shave) stated to the Age Newspaper the Libs would not rule out building if they won future government.  This comment absolutely expresses how delusional the liberal party have become.

They lost the election (arguably) on the promise to build a road to nowhere and instead of accepting the decision of the umpire they have decided to push the barrow again. Incredible.  They just don't get it.


Terry McCran should write children's books.
bevans
Remember that Labor was for the project until the CFMEU were told that they wouldn't be able to control (add $$ to the cost of) the project.   Dan the puppet was told by his handlers to fight against the project just before the election was called.  
Oh to be in a union that fights to keep it's members not working.

I'm sure a lot of voters believed Dan that it wouldn't cost a cent to not build the road - mmmm.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I tend to believe Labour was very worried about loosing the inter city seats to the greens.  This was why the party moved.  Plus the project did not make sense and the voting public did not want it.
  toholio Station Master

Remember that Labor was for the project until...
Donald
Go back just a little further and both parties were going to build the Metro Tunnel. The state Libs only backflipped from that to the EW Link after the federal government changed (well, was changing) and Abbott loudly told them that it's roads or nothing else, regardless of the costs.

We even had a few months of frantically trying to make it seem like the state government had a spine and that Abbott would fund things based on payoff rather than what we have done in the past. But Abbott kept slapping that down: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-01/opposition-leader-abbott-has-27softened27-positoin-on-urban-r/4858574

We elected yesterday's man at a federal level and he doesn't want to spend money on anything other than yesterday's projects.

I wonder what they'll do now? Withholding the money won't win him any votes. He's the dolt that repeatedly called the Vic election a referendum on the EW Link.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
And today Don the opposition leader (the man who does not yet shave) stated to the Age Newspaper the Libs would not rule out building if they won future government.  This comment absolutely expresses how delusional the liberal party have become.

They lost the election (arguably) on the promise to build a road to nowhere and instead of accepting the decision of the umpire they have decided to push the barrow again. Incredible.  They just don't get it.
bevans
The Herald-Sun need to direct their anger against the hopelessly incompetent State Liberal Party, not against the Labor Party - who are actually doing exactly as they promised to do before the election.

The people who were actually in favour of this road - who were barracking for it the most - were the trucking industry. The whole purpose of East-West is to link the Eastern to the docks so that B-doubles and B-triples can get to the industrial areas and big-box shops out east. There were very few motorists projected to use it because (as has been pointed out again and again) it wasn't designed to go in the direction that most motorists were headed (the city). So the project - as a vote-winner - was really flawed from the start because it had a really limited appeal to private motorists.

Cobbled together at the last minute one year out from the election because they realised they hadn't done anything with their four years and they needed to come up with something to appease inner-city voters... so they came up with a massive toll-way? At least the Labor Party correctly read the mood of the electorate and rejected East-West (even if it was a late conversion to the 'no' case).

And then - as if to prove just how much contempt they really hold the electorate in - Tony Abbott comes out swinging after they lose the 'referendum on East-West' election and says Victorians must have elected a Labor government 'by mistake' and that he knew what they really wanted all along was the toll road that they decisively voted against. And he's at it again today, telling Andrews that the Federal money definitely cannot be used for the Metro tunnel and that the money will remain in a 'locked box' until the Victorian government decides to build East-West.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Go back just a little further and both parties were going to build the Metro Tunnel. The state Libs only backflipped from that to the EW Link after the federal government changed (well, was changing) and Abbott loudly told them that it's roads or nothing else, regardless of the costs.
toholio
Even Mulder himself wasn't a big fan of the E-W link before the 2010 state election - i.e They had no mandate back then to build the boondoggle.  Funny how they changed their tune...
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Remember that Labor was for the project until the CFMEU were told that they wouldn't be able to control (add $$ to the cost of) the project.   Dan the puppet was told by his handlers to fight against the project just before the election was called.  
Oh to be in a union that fights to keep it's members not working.

I'm sure a lot of voters believed Dan that it wouldn't cost a cent to not build the road - mmmm.
Donald
Welcome to the Vic union system, a history of project interference.

The project was starting to become very political and the best thing the former govt could have done was placed it on hold earlier and taken it to an election. But I suppose if the Red team switched just before the election then this makes it hard.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Go back just a little further and both parties were going to build the Metro Tunnel. The state Libs only backflipped from that to the EW Link after the federal government changed (well, was changing) and Abbott loudly told them that it's roads or nothing else, regardless of the costs.

We even had a few months of frantically trying to make it seem like the state government had a spine and that Abbott would fund things based on payoff rather than what we have done in the past. But Abbott kept slapping that down: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-01/opposition-leader-abbott-has-27softened27-positoin-on-urban-r/4858574

We elected yesterday's man at a federal level and he doesn't want to spend money on anything other than yesterday's projects.

I wonder what they'll do now? Withholding the money won't win him any votes. He's the dolt that repeatedly called the Vic election a referendum on the EW Link.
toholio
With the project cancelled the money now returns to the feds. Standard practice and they shouldn't be setting a precedent sending it somewhere else in a rash move without doing all the diligence as per normal. NSW walked away from $2B of Fed money for the EPRL in favor of NWRL.

The downside of cancelling the project means that there is going to be two years or so until an alt project can be funded by the feds due to the time frame to do all the upfront work. If however the state decides to go it alone on something else then the time gap is less.
  toholio Station Master

Just saw this http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/melbourne-cbd-to-be-dug-up-for-rail/story-fni0xqi4-1227305860219:
The original funding plan called for a third of the money to come from the federal government, but Mr Andrews said the state was prepared to go it alone.

"The current federal government have made it clear they will not be a partner in this, and I see no purpose frankly in continuing that argument with the current federal government," he said.

Mr Andrews said the private sector would still be involved in funding the project.
Herald Sun

We'll have to wait and see how that plays out. I suppose they could be betting on a different government, or maybe just PM with the fallback being to borrow if that doesn't work out.

The twin 9km tunnels will sit above the city loop rail tunnel, and above the CityLink road tunnel, before diving underneath the Yarra River.
Herald Sun
That could be better worded.
  MtBeenak Train Controller

Here's the graphic I'm looking for from page 130 of the 2008 Eddington report (found here):



2/3 into the CBD, 1/3 straight down Hoddle St.
HardSleeper
This graph is contingent on people using the Eastern rather than another alternative that takes them more easily across the city. Imagine someone from Dandenong planning to go to the Airport or anywhere further west.  "Do I take East-link and the Eastern, get caught on Alexander Pde for 45 minutes then join City Link at Flemington Road, or should I stay on the M1 throught the tunnels and across the Bolte Bridge, with a minimum speed of 80km/h most days...Hmmmm??!!"

In the current road climate none of these people are taking the Eastern/Alexander Pde...oh wait, about 9% are finding their way west and 21% north along Lygon St/Royal Pde/(eventually onto City Link???).  And where are the maps showing reverse traffic flow; across the inner fringe onto the Eastern?  And where is the mention of all those using Greensborough Highway/Metro Ring Road/Western Ring?  The only people using the Eastern for east/west trips are those who live in its shadow, for whom there is no realistic alternative.

And what of the public transport option?  Sorry, no one has that much time.  Even the disabled would take a maxi-taxi rather than try to get to the Airport on public transport.
  tom9876543 Train Controller

This graph is contingent on people using the Eastern rather than another alternative that takes them more easily across the city. Imagine someone from Dandenong planning to go to the Airport or anywhere further west.  "Do I take East-link and the Eastern, get caught on Alexander Pde for 45 minutes then join City Link at Flemington Road, or should I stay on the M1 throught the tunnels and across the Bolte Bridge, with a minimum speed of 80km/h most days...Hmmmm??!!"
MtBeenak

It looks like you are trying to say that people from Dandenong would choose to pay for the East West Link instead of paying the City Link tolls.
And this huge source of revenue would justify the East West Link . *end sarcasm*

And where is the mention of all those using Greensborough Highway/Metro Ring Road/Western Ring?
MtBeenak


So you are trying to say the people using a FREE road will pay for a toll road, to save themselves a grand total of 10 minutes?
And this huge source of revenue would justify the East West Link . *end sarcasm*

The Sydney Cross City Tunnel was a disaster.
The Brisbane CLEM7 Tunnel was another disaster.

It's good to see Victoria didn't make the same mistake.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
This graph is contingent on people using the Eastern rather than another alternative that takes them more easily across the city. Imagine someone from Dandenong planning to go to the Airport or anywhere further west.  "Do I take East-link and the Eastern, get caught on Alexander Pde for 45 minutes then join City Link at Flemington Road, or should I stay on the M1 throught the tunnels and across the Bolte Bridge, with a minimum speed of 80km/h most days...Hmmmm??!!"

In the current road climate none of these people are taking the Eastern/Alexander Pde...oh wait, about 9% are finding their way west and 21% north along Lygon St/Royal Pde/(eventually onto City Link???).  And where are the maps showing reverse traffic flow; across the inner fringe onto the Eastern?  And where is the mention of all those using Greensborough Highway/Metro Ring Road/Western Ring?  The only people using the Eastern for east/west trips are those who live in its shadow, for whom there is no realistic alternative.

And what of the public transport option?  Sorry, no one has that much time.  Even the disabled would take a maxi-taxi rather than try to get to the Airport on public transport.
MtBeenak
That map shows me that the majority of the traffic goes down Hoddle St/Punt Rd.   Better off widening Punt Road than building the cross city road.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
Im pretty sure that 68% of the traffic on the Eastern is bound for the CBD according to that map, not necessarily using Hoddle Street to do so (rough calculation would show you would need almost twice as many lanes for regular arterial, compared to freeway). However, yes, you would have more bang for buck by trying to streamline Hoddle street (grade separations, anyone?) than trying to do anything to Alexandra parade (or building the EW-link)
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Speaking of re-purposing, I heard a rumour that the government will get a pair of tunnel boring machines as part of the deal?
don_dunstan

There is at least 1 TBM coming off the Sydney project so they could use that to get the job done.  Tunnels are build all over the world using TBM technology why is Australia different?

I am aware of the perilious state of the citylink tunnels build on the cheap.  They are going to need a lot of work into the future and soon.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Herald-Sun need to direct their anger against the hopelessly incompetent State Liberal Party, not against the Labor Party - who are actually doing exactly as they promised to do before the election.

The people who were actually in favour of this road - who were barracking for it the most - were the trucking industry. The whole purpose of East-West is to link the Eastern to the docks so that B-doubles and B-triples can get to the industrial areas and big-box shops out east. There were very few motorists projected to use it because (as has been pointed out again and again) it wasn't designed to go in the direction that most motorists were headed (the city). So the project - as a vote-winner - was really flawed from the start because it had a really limited appeal to private motorists.
don_dunstan

Completely agree Don.  I am on record here as stating this Napthine wet dream was all about trucking mates and setting up the plan to use thousands of trucks to get to the new Port at Hastings. The entire project should be a lesson to future governments to never ever play that game again.

The issue we have is the management of the Port of Melbourne who went along with this sham.

What is desperately required and has been for years is an intermodal terminal at near Dandenong. Salta wanted to build one.  Where has that project gone?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As if Abbott has not embarrassed himself enough already.  We today have this gem as reported in today's Age Newspaper:


The Andrews government is "dead" because of its decision to dump the East West Link, Tony Abbott has predicted.

But the Prime Minister has refused to accept the project itself is finished, despite the $420 million deal this week between the state government and the East West Connect consortium to end the contract for the controversial project.

The federal government handed over about $1.5 billion to the former Napthine government for the first eastern stage of the road, with a further $1.5 from the Commonwealth on offer for the second western section.
The Age

Incredible.  This guy is a Dinosaur.
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
As if Abbott has not embarrassed himself enough already.  We today have this gem as reported in today's Age Newspaper:



Incredible.  This guy is a Dinosaur.
bevans

Agree 100% there mate.  And another thing he should try and remember in that small brain of his, is that initially that $3bn he is referring to was for the Melbourne Metro Tunnel.

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