Time to try double decker trains again?

 
Topic moved from Melbourne suburban by dthead on 16 Jun 2015 16:37
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
You will find far more flexibility in single deck trains than DD. For example much of the former Soviet block is all the same profile and train length. Trains made in France run in Melbourne and other countries and yes I'm sure the Dubai Metro trains would probably fit the Vancouver Metro and Singapore no issue.
RTT_Rules


Much of the former Soviet block maybe the same length and profile, and they do have some double decker trains there, as I've seen in photos.

Our Xtraps were built for Melbourne, not for anywhere in France, they weren't transferred from a French system. They even run on a different track gauge from all French railways.

New South Wales may soon have double decker trains also built in France, and unlike our Xtraps may even share the same bogey type as RER double deckers.

Yes, not all will fit every where and there are probably 3 basic profile sizes without even touching length. I think NZ is even running for UK stock.
RTT_Rules


But NZ is narrow gauge and British mainline is standard gauge, but with a loading gauge more typical of narrow track gauge rolling stock.

Morocco bought TGV technology, so yes it fits, a classic example of why buying off the shelf is better from the start, or an opportunity to start a new.
RTT_Rules


As noted above, Morocco also has French double decker trains.

"Cape Gauge" is not a good definition anymore as its too broad.  For example Sth Africa has quite a broad profile. Historic Qld does not.
RTT_Rules


Cape gauge refers to track gauge, not loading gauge.

I thought Japan maybe running DD, don't have time to look up right now.
RTT_Rules


I've seen photos of them.

Sponsored advertisement

  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The X'trap is a common platform used in many locations with the minor gauge difference between BG and SG being only a minor issue and catered for in the train overall design and Melbourne is not the only BG customer. There maybe and likely is Melbourne only features on the train, but its the overall platform that is important and key criteria to being portable.

NSW continues down the never ending path of each batch order, they go to yet another supplier in the never ending hope fo finding someone who can build the things hassle free and for a reasonable price, and we wonder why they did something different for NWRL (for another post)?

NZ vr UK, just goes to show track gauge isn't everything. WA also runs basically an SG design on NG (although it was first on NG).

Cape Gauge, as I said there is more to a train design than the rail spacing, just look at what tonnes SAR move on NG in single trains.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The X'trap is a common platform used in many locations with the minor gauge difference between BG and SG being only a minor issue and catered for in the train overall design and Melbourne is not the only BG customer. There maybe and likely is Melbourne only features on the train, but its the overall platform that is important and key criteria to being portable.
RTT_Rules

Our X'traps are the only 5'3'' ones, the only other broad gauge ones are somewhere in South America, and these are on 5'6'' gauge track, different bogies yet again.

NSW continues down the never ending path of each batch order, they go to yet another supplier in the never ending hope fo finding someone who can build the things hassle free and for a reasonable price, and we wonder why they did something different for NWRL (for another post)?
RTT_Rules

No, they traditionally got their trains (single and later double decked) from a local supplier, first Tulloch and later Comeng and Gonian.
We used to do that same, and Brisbane may still do the same.

Once again, even rail experts who live in the Sydney area do criticise what they did for that new rail link.

NZ vr UK, just goes to show track gauge isn't everything. WA also runs basically an SG design on NG (although it was first on NG).
RTT_Rules

Not all rolling stock is specifically designed to be gauge convertible, and so not all rolling stock can be fitted with bogies for just any gauge.

Cape Gauge, as I said there is more to a train design than the rail spacing, just look at what tonnes SAR move on NG in single trains.
RTT_Rules

I know you said so, but track gauge is significant, because rolling stock from the same manufacturer running on the same gauge track in different parts of the world almost always has the same bogey design, even if there are differences in length, width and/or height.

Furthermore, different gauge bogies even require different wheel sets.

I know that many overseas double decker trains are longer (in terms of wheelbase), but not quite all, and I can't think of a reason why shorter ones won't work in New South Wales.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Not sure but Lisbon may also be a Broader gauge. 5'3 or 5 foot what ever, its broad gauge a few inches is irrelevant as is the difference from SG. If you wanted tomorrow, you could buy the SG set, have the wheel spacing and etc adjusted and what ever else to make the, ready for Melbourne and away you go.

Yes, Sydney traditionally got alot of its fleet locally and generally had few problems. Both the M and A set orders have had significant issues in way or another but admittedly the H set in the middle was much better. The point I was sarcastically indicating as that with this moving away from local manufacture due to the mining boom, the govt went off-shore to get a better price and with its unique design and other problems the contract was a disaster that probably end up costing more. China burnt their bridge so next taker and if they screw this order up, where to next?

Qld/WA bought the Marybough trains from EDI for 35 years with few issues and the last orders they were able to basically make the one train for both, not just a platform. Now just as this happens EDI have bailed and Qld has gone Indian and WA is looking elsewhere, so different suppliers.

Victoria is a mixed bag of two different suppliers, although both off standard platforms, but the two designs are not even aligned. ie 2 and 3 door. Siemens made complete in Austria and X/trap final fitout in Australia.

Now dollar is way down and wages will be dropping, will it again be viable to start making trains in Oz again?

I'm not sure how you do this, but we but enough trains domestically to keep a very large factory running. Surely we can some how get a factory(s) to build the various trains for Australia and work with the state govts to align their orders and production rates. Qld not only needs to buy more, but replace the inital 87 strong EMU fleet, Perth is getting into a similar situation. Sydney will have a non-stop supply of trains for probably 10-15 years at least.

No, not all rolling stock is gauge convertible, but apart from locos or powered bogies most isn't a major drama as long as the profile is right.

Anything will work anywhere as long as it fits the profile. Bogies are probably the most portable and yes agree RER ones would probably work just fine.

NWRL, some of the quoted so called experts have little more experience (after checking their CV's) than many others (excluding me) in this website including a few links you passed on some of which didn't work. Some of their comments and statements are pure rubbish full of poorly researched mistakes. I'm sure their comments are to try and get them selves some press or maybe even govt funding into their ideas. Anyway, I'll leave the NSW NWRL to a different thread.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Not sure but Lisbon may also be a Broader gauge. 5'3 or 5 foot what ever, its broad gauge a few inches is irrelevant as is the difference from SG. If you wanted tomorrow, you could buy the SG set, have the wheel spacing and etc adjusted and what ever else to make the, ready for Melbourne and away you go.
RTT_Rules


Don't know anything about Lisbon, but their traditional trams are narrow gauge. What you said is possible with standard gauge trains would not work for a Tangara, broad gauge bogies wouldn't fit between the body panels.

Yes, Sydney traditionally got alot of its fleet locally and generally had few problems. Both the M and A set orders have had significant issues in way or another but admittedly the H set in the middle was much better. The point I was sarcastically indicating as that with this moving away from local manufacture due to the mining boom, the govt went off-shore to get a better price and with its unique design and other problems the contract was a disaster that probably end up costing more. China burnt their bridge so next taker and if they screw this order up, where to next?
RTT_Rules


How is it that the newer sets have had more problems than previous ones.

Qld/WA bought the Marybough trains from EDI for 35 years with few issues and the last orders they were able to basically make the one train for both, not just a platform. Now just as this happens EDI have bailed and Qld has gone Indian and WA is looking elsewhere, so different suppliers.
RTT_Rules


EDI sounds familiar, can anyone tell me more about them or even link to their website.

Victoria is a mixed bag of two different suppliers, although both off standard platforms, but the two designs are not even aligned. ie 2 and 3 door. Siemens made complete in Austria and X/trap final fitout in Australia.
RTT_Rules


No, that's only Melbourne suburban, and this wasn't the case before that generation of trains was delivered.

Now dollar is way down and wages will be dropping, will it again be viable to start making trains in Oz again?

No, not all rolling stock is gauge convertible, but apart from locos or powered bogies most isn't a major drama as long as the profile is right.
RTT_Rules


The Tangara is another exception.

Anything will work anywhere as long as it fits the profile. Bogies are probably the most portable and yes agree RER ones would probably work just fine.
RTT_Rules


And yet building to an unusual track gauge does increase the cost of obtaining and maintaning rolling stock.

NWRL, some of the quoted so called experts have little more experience (after checking their CV's) than many others (excluding me) in this website including a few links you passed on some of which didn't work. Some of their comments and statements are pure rubbish full of poorly researched mistakes. Anyway, I'll leave the NSW NWRL to a different thread.
RTT_Rules


One of them has told me alot, in emails to me, about the European double decker trains, including about the equipment rooms on some of them. He is very knowledgable, and has plenty of experience with European railways, and some in North Africa including Dubai metro. I've heard, and later noticed in a video taken onboard the Dubai metro, that Dubai is very spread out, and that the gaps between stations are due to vacant land, which I did notice in that video.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Now dollar is way down and wages will be dropping, will it again be viable to start making trains in Oz again?
Myrtone
They are making both A-city and V/locity at Bombardier Dandenong; but yes, engineering operations become much more viable with every decrease in the $AU.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Portugal like Spain uses a wider gauge track. Not sure on specifics for their suburban systems, but often they are the same and a quck reference I found to one line indicated as such.

Tangara like rest of Sydney fleet is very very location specific in the overall design. There is no borrowing of the car body design from anyone else. Its made for Sydney and Sydney only (excluding basics like traction systems), hence why they have issues at times in design and commissioning and it costs more and why the NWRL is not the same as we have repeatedly discussed. Most Networks especially SD networks are usually able to start from a basic platform design and customize to fit to various levels. As in the case for the last orders for Brisbane and Perth, the local customizing was very minimal. This makes it cheaper, easier and more reliable.

And before you start the RER design will need to be heavily modified to fit Sydney so much you may as well start again and they will if they get the contract and as in the case for many OS designs, they may not be structurally up to Australian design standards. Bogies are obviously a non-brainer. I would not put t past the French to get awarded the contract thinking they can do it cheap as an RER modification but by the time they finish they may as well start again.

EDI website, start by typing in EDI into google and/or wiki.

As I said the last orders for Vic were a mixed bag of two very different trains for Melbourne Suburban.

In this day and age, the world platform designs such as those by Alstom and Siemens are usually flexible enough to manage single things like different gauge widths to a point, from what i have seen its not a big deal until you get to narrow gauge. Hence why they got the contracts.

There are plenty of Dubai Metro video's on You-tube. We were in the train that got the first one on the Green Line and you can see my son in the reflection in the tunnel.

Parts of Dubai are very spread out, but most not so with stations are very close together. You can stand on one station and look through 3 others in two locations.

Anyway, so this guy is very knowledgeable because he agrees with you, but others with similar experience and but different views not so? The RER car internal layout is on the www, thats where I counted the seats because when I was on the RER it was so packed I couldn't count the doors but I was standing next to the equipment room. The RER design has less under floor room for equipment than Sydney Trains design (which I see as superior) and also Australian DAA design standards are better for the disabled in Oz than living in Paris.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Now dollar is way down and wages will be dropping, will it again be viable to start making trains in Oz again?
They are making both A-city and V/locity at Bombardier Dandenong; but yes, engineering operations become much more viable with every decrease in the $AU.
don_dunstan
At $1A : $1US compared to $A0.70 : $US1, thats 30% more costly for a train imported whole?

Plus, a reduction in local wages with the heat gone from the mining boom, that could add another 5-10% reduction in costs.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Portugal like Spain uses a wider gauge track. Not sure on specifics for their suburban systems, but often they are the same and a quck reference I found to one line indicated as such.
RTT_Rules

And that's the whole of the Iberian peninsula, not just Lisbon.

Tangara like rest of Sydney fleet is very very location specific in the overall design. There is no borrowing of the car body design from anyone else. Its made for Sydney and Sydney only (excluding basics like traction systems), hence why they have issues at times in design and commissioning and it costs more and why the NWRL is not the same as we have repeatedly discussed. Most Networks especially SD networks are usually able to start from a basic platform design and customize to fit to various levels. As in the case for the last orders for Brisbane and Perth, the local customizing was very minimal. This makes it cheaper, easier and more reliable.
RTT_Rules

Actually, the NWRL will be a suburban railway length railway, with suburban railway station spacings but with short haul rolling stock designed for short haul runs.
The only metro line in Paris with similar station spacing is also the only one in deep, bored tunnel, and is also a filler line built to alleviate others. All other metro lines are in cut and cover tunnels, are were built to alleviate street transit.
Dubai, so I'm told and later saw in that video mentioned above, is very low density, with lots of vacant land, the stations being located in the developed pockets.

And before you start the RER design will need to be heavily modified to fit Sydney so much you may as well start again and they will if they get the contract and as in the case for many OS designs, they may not be structurally up to Australian design standards. Bogies are obviously a non-brainer. I would not put t past the French to get awarded the contract thinking they can do it cheap as an RER modification but by the time they finish they may as well start again.
RTT_Rules

I can't think of what modifications will be needed, but I suppose that an older single decked RER design would need similar modifications to fit New South Wales.

EDI website, start by typing in EDI into google and/or wiki.
RTT_Rules

I'm anticipating that someone reading this might already know the url and put a link.

As I said the last orders for Vic were a mixed bag of two very different trains for Melbourne Suburban.
RTT_Rules

At that time, we had two different companies running different parts of the same network.

In this day and age, the world platform designs such as those by Alstom and Siemens are usually flexible enough to manage single things like different gauge widths to a point, from what i have seen its not a big deal until you get to narrow gauge. Hence why they got the contracts.
RTT_Rules

Only because they were specifically designed to be gauge convertible. Tangaras were not.

There are plenty of Dubai Metro video's on You-tube. We were in the train that got the first one on the Green Line and you can see my son in the reflection in the tunnel.
RTT_Rules

I know, and I've hardly seen any of them.

Parts of Dubai are very spread out, but most not so with stations are very close together. You can stand on one station and look through 3 others in two locations.
RTT_Rules

Isn't it in the spread out part that that stations are further apart?

Anyway, so this guy is very knowledgeable because he agrees with you, but others with similar experience and but different views not so? The RER car internal layout is on the www, thats where I counted the seats because when I was on the RER it was so packed I couldn't count the doors but I was standing next to the equipment room. The RER design has less under floor room for equipment than Sydney Trains design (which I see as superior) and also Australian DAA design standards are better for the disabled in Oz than living in Paris.
RTT_Rules

He has given me a very detailed description of the train designs in Europe. He's the one who told me about the equipment rooms on some of them.

Yes, he agrees with Gavin Gatenby of EcoTransit, but I'm not sure whether Gavin is a rail expert. Not all critiques of that decision are as knowledgeable as he is.
But the metro decision has been criticised by many rail experts, not just him.

DAA, do you mean DDA, disability discrimination act?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
People People STOP feeding this "M" guy and let the thread die a natural death.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Ooooh, mum! Just another half an hour...
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Ooooh, mum! Just another half an hour...
don_dunstan
And everyone is getting dizzy watching the argument spin around in ever decreasing circles Rolling Eyes
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Here is a very informative post about the train frequency claim, and even notes the type of rolling stock that RER-line A actually has.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Actually, the NWRL will be a suburban railway length railway, with suburban railway station spacings but with short haul rolling stock designed for short haul runs.
The only metro line in Paris with similar station spacing is also the only one in deep, bored tunnel, and is also a filler line built to alleviate others. All other metro lines are in cut and cover tunnels, are were built to alleviate street transit.
Dubai, so I'm told and later saw in that video mentioned above, is very low density, with lots of vacant land, the stations being located in the developed pockets.

Trying to put trains or different railway lines into pigeon holes is a path to failure.

AGAIN I refer to mostly networks built in the last 30 years and for this the NWRL is well aligned with other similar projects including station spacing for which is now typically 1.5-4km apart on all but high density inner city stations. Also the line design and traffic modelling of the NWRL is indeed short haul focused to match the passenger requirements and why the Inner NWRL project was heavily critised as ignoring the needs of the commuter and hence cancelled in favor of a line to connect with Chatswood and lower NSL.  One of the biggest critisms of Dubai Red line is that there are too many stations too closely spaced together and this slows down the trip, but there are local issues that drive this.

Historically the bulk of the Sydney Network was sweeper and transport to the city design. I trains stops 10-20 times picking people up along a route and dumps most of them at the inner city or city. VV in PM. NWRL modelling shows that people will be picked up off the NWRL, but a significantly large majority will alight/detrain at various locations along the route starting with Epping, then ECRL stations, Chatswood and Lower NSL. Reverse runs will also transport people short distances from Chatswood to ECRL stations and Crows Nest.

Dubai, thats pretty much it, but spaces have been left to fill in stations in the future and indeed the station numbering has gaps in those regions.  Dubai is a rapidly growing city and basically spits on anything we call fast in Australia. Population of the country doubled within 10 years. Its a Railway built for the future in mind in many ways bar the ability to make the trains longer, to me a major oversight. The NWRL is being started with shorter trains and this makes economic and operational sense as it enables the frequency to be kept fast, but still has growth options to make the trains longer as the stations will be built long from the start but also increase frequency. Few systems have started with this level of forward planning and the designers and the govt should be congratulated.

I can assure you no matter what they built on the NW, there would have been experts and so called experts out there who would have said its the wrong technology, design, route and station spacing. As I told you many times before the move away from Sydney existing rail technology has been in plan for over 10 years for numerous reasons where there was a practical application to do so.

Mytone,
publicly demonstrating you have no interest to type the three letters EDI into Google, yet request others to do so is not going to get people to help you and certainly I no longer will. As a few people here have said before, you need to do some of your own basic research in some of the matters you want to discuss or seek information on. Yes I have traveled on a few networks which adds alot to my knowledge base as have others more so, but I'd say 75% of the content I have replied on this subject is from using Google and I have spent alot of time doing so, probably more than its really worth. Google is your friend, but its a two way friendship and you must first open up Google to start the relationship. Everyone is entitled to be wrong and post incorrect comments or facts and be politely corrected and this brings on discussion, hopefully friendly discussion and debate. Please get off your backside and use Google for some of your questions to demonstrate you are not lazy, if you are not sure you are on the right track, I'm sure people will be more than willing to assist you if you meet them half way.

Please bring something new to the table on NWRL or I'll move on myself.  
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria


Mytone,

publicly demonstrating you have no interest to type the three letters EDI into Google, yet request others to do so is not going to get people to help you and certainly I no longer will. As a few people here have said before, you need to do some of your own basic research in some of the matters you want to discuss or seek information on. Yes I have traveled on a few networks which adds alot to my knowledge base as have others more so, but I'd say 75% of the content I have replied on this subject is from using Google and I have spent alot of time doing so, probably more than its really worth. Google is your friend, but its a two way friendship and you must first open up Google to start the relationship. Everyone is entitled to be wrong and post incorrect comments or facts and be politely corrected and this brings on discussion, hopefully friendly discussion and debate. Please get off your backside and use Google for some of your questions to demonstrate you are not lazy, if you are not sure you are on the right track, I'm sure people will be more than willing to assist you if you meet them half way.

Please bring something new to the table on NWRL or I'll move on myself.  
RTT_Rules


I'm not requesting anyone else to type it into Google (I did type it into the seach engine on this forum), just hoping that someone who already knows would come along and explain. I have actually heard of Downer EDi, since the are opreating our tramways jointly with Kelios. But I didn't know that Downer made trains. I didn't realise that so much of what you wrote was from looking things up in a search engine. I thought you already knew most of what you wrote without searching it in the same timeframe.

You don't need to help me if you don't want to.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Here is a very informative post about the train frequency claim, and even notes the type of rolling stock that RER-line A actually has.
Myrtone

Having read that yes, with manual driven you can do 90sec, the Indians manage ith with far less technology although the safety standards would not comply to Australia for India.

Now the A line, I don't know much at all about the infrastructure apart that the high frequency is limited to 8 stations and assumed to be a double track only, at both sides the line divides. For Sydney it will be far more, this adds to the risk and reliability.

Duplication of the lower NSL is akin to duplication a goat track. Brisbane did just this only a few years back on the Beenleigh line and it was one of the dumpest things to come out of Qld. $500m of brand new tight curves and slow speed express trains that take for ever to pass an all stopper chewing up track capacity. The NSL would need a by-pass of the Lower NSL bends, which the NWRL-Sydney Metro will do.

French RER stations, the ones I used and the ones I googled make Town Hall platforms look like a narrow corridor. The issue that has been repeatedly stated is that Town Hall is a people bottle neck, which has knock on effects to train movements. This is the main limited factor.

The link also states that number of doors has a bigger impact more so than DD. No one ever said DD was bad, what we said was that the twin door trains were bad for congested/high volume stations and pushing high frequency.

Sydney's tightly curved stations prohibits triple doors and on a DD car 20m long the train design prevents this also. Bogies are ~16m apart on centres and a 3-4m wide door space in middle about 10-11m of wall for seats. If the train is SD, no problem, you just loose seats but you still need straight'ish platforms.

Then there is costs...

And yes, I firmly believe BOTH sides of govt have proposed or implemented a Automated train system to keep the union out of the new line or having the same level of influence. Could you imagine the public's mind set for the first strike post NWRL, no trains anywhere in Sydney but on the NWRL. Note: the train drivers union has been very well behaved in recent years in Sydney so there are probably few issues although many memories are not limited to a recent years.

Brisbane drivers called a snap strike a 10 years ago and I'd say they burnt so many bridges on that one they won't do it again for another decade. In this day and age, you don't shut down a cities public transport system especially with zero notice, there are other ways.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Now the A line, I don't know much at all about the infrastructure apart that the high frequency is limited to 8 stations and assumed to be a double track only, at both sides the line divides. For Sydney it will be far more, this adds to the risk and reliability.
RTT_Rules

Nor do I. And it's not clear whether or not they run all types of train at such short intervals or only certain ones.

Duplication of the lower NSL is akin to duplication a goat track. Brisbane did just this only a few years back on the Beenleigh line and it was one of the dumpest things to come out of Qld. $500m of brand new tight curves and slow speed express trains that take for ever to pass an all stopper chewing up track capacity. The NSL would need a by-pass of the Lower NSL bends, which the NWRL-Sydney Metro will do.
RTT_Rules

You would mean quadruplification.

French RER stations, the ones I used and the ones I googled make Town Hall platforms look like a narrow corridor. The issue that has been repeatedly stated is that Town Hall is a people bottle neck, which has knock on effects to train movements. This is the main limited factor.
RTT_Rules

But isn't Town Hall the only station with this problem. If only one station is a people bottleneck, surely the solution is to rebuild that one.

The link also states that number of doors has a bigger impact more so than DD. No one ever said DD was bad, what we said was that the twin door trains were bad for congested/high volume stations and pushing high frequency.
RTT_Rules

Actually, the RER has some older single decker trains with as many as four doors per side, but they actually take longer to dwell at stations than the newer double deckers, which have wider doors.

Sydney's tightly curved stations prohibits triple doors and on a DD car 20m long the train design prevents this also. Bogies are ~16m apart on centres and a 3-4m wide door space in middle about 10-11m of wall for seats. If the train is SD, no problem, you just loose seats but you still need straight'ish platforms.
RTT_Rules

Tightly curved platforms, without gap fillers, prevent triple doors even on single deckers. Train design ensures that the doors are closer together than on longer wheelbase trains also with two doors per side of each carriage.

Like I said, it's still not clear whether the RER manages to run two door trains at two minute frequencies or only does so with three door ones.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If door spacings and /or stopping points are inconsistent between services or even on same service this will slow down boarding.

The French wiki page on RER has more information on what trains they use. From what I could read its only 3 (or more) door models on Line A

MI 09
Alteo
Z8100
MS61
....

The A line manages 2min in one direction only in peak, 2.5min opposite and yes this is a nice photo of the system at work.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/Effet_SACEM_en_gare_d%27Auber_%28RER_A%29_par_Cramos.jpg

....

Duplication of the existing Duplication is what I meant.
....

Tight curves at stations will always prohibit middle doors on 20m rolling stock, regardless of number of levels. This was my point.

.....

Town Hall is an underground station in the centre of Sydney, Wynyard is also a growing problem but not as bad. The cost is rebuild and implications to users during the process is prohibitive.

If the issue wasn't just about Town Hall you could easily do the following

- NWRL built to DD standard and operated as such
- Quad from Chatswood to St Leonards
- South of St Leonards take the dive and head off to Crows Nest and then to two options

1) Into Nth Sydney and cross the bridge at 2min spacing and then into the city reclaim Platforms 1 and 2 from Wynyard and then to a new station at Pitt Street and into Central spare UG platforms and then via a Tunnel to Sydnam, with station at Redfern and Waterloo or uni and Sex the route until the Bankstown branch.

This would match the extra capacity needed for Bankstown with max capacity possible across the bridge (25 to 30 trains per hour, because they are not using the same single platform, just tracks for 2-3km) on a single pair of tracks and enable faster/express running between Chatswood and Wynyard saving about 10min or more.

Down side, alot of money spent tunneling for limited capacity. Crows Nest side I see would be the dominant route.


2) Tunnel from Crows Nest via Victoria Cross under the harbour to new stations similar to Metro route and as above.

Capability to push track capacity to over 40t/hr for both lines from across the harbour.



Again neither of these issues will resolve the issue the govt is trying to solve.

The ability to reclaim the former tram lines across the harbour bridge will never ever happen, don't even bother with this one.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
If door spacings and /or stopping points are inconsistent between services or even on same service this will slow down boarding.
RTT_Rules

I'm not quite sure what this means.

The French wiki page on RER has more information on what trains they use. From what I could read its only 3 (or more) door models on Line A

MI 09
Alteo
Z8100
MS61
....

The A line manages 2min in one direction only in peak, 2.5min opposite and yes this is a nice photo of the system at work.
RTT_Rules

Yes, the RER still has single decker trains, having ordered new single deckers as late as the early 80s, and it's first double deckers in the mid 80s.

In fact, their single deckers have as many as 4 per side of each carriage. While the double deckers have only 3, the doors themselves are wider, and they actually take less time to dwell at stations than the older single deckers.
So maybe the width of each door may actually have a bigger impact than the number of doors.

Tight curves at stations will always prohibit middle doors on 20m rolling stock, regardless of number of levels. This was my point.
RTT_Rules

With gap fillers installed, they do permit middle doors. But actually, as far as I can recall from personal experience, many Sydney trains actually have wider doors than, for example, all triple door trains here in Melbourne (only the Nexas sets are two door).

Town Hall is an underground station in the centre of Sydney, Wynyard is also a growing problem but not as bad. The cost is rebuild and implications to users during the process is prohibitive.
RTT_Rules

I find it hard to believe that rebuilding only one station should cost more than starting a second network. It just wouldn't be credible.

If the RER can achieve 30 double deckers an hour, so could a second Sydney rail network built to the same loading gauge as the existing network, but without the "hard line constraints" that you claim exist on the Sydney suburban.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner


2) Tunnel from Crows Nest via Victoria Cross under the harbour to new stations similar to Metro route and as above.

Capability to push track capacity to over 40t/hr for both lines from across the harbour.
RTT_Rules

Not that I've bothered to read all this thread, but FYI, the RER Line B & Line D share a short section of track in tunnel (IIRC - I've used line B), with (again, without checking the service timetables) 40tph.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

2) Tunnel from Crows Nest via Victoria Cross under the harbour to new stations similar to Metro route and as above.

Capability to push track capacity to over 40t/hr for both lines from across the harbour.
Not that I've bothered to read all this thread, but FYI, the RER Line B & Line D share a short section of track in tunnel (IIRC - I've used line B), with (again, without checking the service timetables) 40tph.
djf01

Fair points.

It is however only between only shared between the two stations, about 1mile and I assume do not share platforms at either end. 40t/hr is probably not a huge issue if you don't share platforms at each end.

For comments on this from wiki

Initially, the new RER D was meant to share with the RER A between Paris-Gare de Lyon and Châtelet-Les Halles. But, RATP, the company who runs the RER A, objected to such an operation as the number of passengers using the RER A was growing and required running extra trains on the RER A. It was decided that instead, each lines must have its own platforms, in which the RER A at the Gare de Lyon has its tracks at lower level of the underground station, with the future RER D on the upper level. The RER D tracks at Paris-Gare de Lyon have four tracks and being above the RER A tracks, allowed "platform to platform" transfers vertically, a Japanese invention

............

Technical difficulties of the Interconnextion include the shared tunnel with RER D between Châtelet – Les Halles and Gare du Nord, and the fact that while the SNCF part in the northern suburbs use 25 kV AC current, the RATP part uses 1500 V DC, forcing the use of dual-voltage trains


Delays


The RER D is often seen in Paris as the most unpunctual railway line in the RER network.[18] This unpunctuality is partially due to the tunnel the RER B and RER D lines share between Châtelet - Les Halles station and Gare du Nord station, where even a small delay of a few seconds on either lines can cause catastrophic delays and trains to be cancelled. The effects of this mean regular commuters of the RER D are used to trains being cancelled or late daily.
.......

A high number of incidents, from a social and service point of view, have brought the term "RER poubelle" ("RER trash" in French), often used by its users, and even its staff.[7] Assaults are frequent[8] and unpunctuality is the highest in the Transilien network, with the number of late trains going from 9.9% to 14.1% between 1994 and 1995
(Is this still revlent?)

So do we still want this in Sydney Trains?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Town Hall is an underground station in the centre of Sydney, Wynyard is also a growing problem but not as bad. The cost is rebuild and implications to users during the process is prohibitive.

I find it hard to believe that rebuilding only one station should cost more than starting a second network. It just wouldn't be credible.

If the RER can achieve 30 double deckers an hour, so could a second Sydney rail network built to the same loading gauge as the existing network, but without the "hard line constraints" that you claim exist on the Sydney suburban.
Myrtone
Two points

1) You need to understand the huge cost to work on something existing and used by thousands of people an hour buried under the city and the physical practicality in doing so. Hence why all to often the F-it, build a another one policy is used.

2) Town Hall station is not the only problem this project is trying to solve.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thinking about that thread to connect CBD with new airport with very fast trains. An issue that will face DD technology for a train primarily used for the airport will be baggage. This will need a serious rework of the DD layout or move to SD for dedicated services.  However as I personally prefer a loop service, ie BC, Mascot via East hills, City loop, western main and down to BC, I'm thinking, DD would be better, but you still need to manage the baggage.

Currently I assume most like me simply sit in the end section (platform height), with bags dumped around them which in peak is an issue. Most airport services world wide typically use specialized rolling-stock which has more racks and usually onboard information and displays that are aimed directly at travelers. The high frequency of services to the Airport stations probably negates the specialised approach for what is mostly a short ride into the city.

For the loop service, the % of users on rail maybe higher than Mascot, but volumes would be lower but compensated by a 15-20min rail timetable once the airport sort of hits 10mpa (1500/hr) which would be partially and evenly split between the SW and Western route to the city.

So I'm thinking still use the basic DD platform as fitted out for interurban services. In the end mid sections the seats would be removed on one side and replaced with luggage racks.

On the lower level, the stairs would also be removed and replaced with ramps as per the interurban Italian DD's we used 2 years back. Again some of the seats would be removed and replaced with luggage storage areas. The trains would be on a limited express service and confined to this route only. Regular commuters and those travelling light have access to the upstairs seating. The regular commuters will quickly work out the top will be favorable for those without luggage.
  BezLovesTrains Beginner

I'm going to respond to a tonne of things I have read in this thread:

Doors on a train:

A few people had this argument, and I failed to see the point, DD trains are 4 or 8 carriages, possessing 2 doors per carriage. Compare that to SD being 3 or 6 carriage, and 3 doors per carriage, which some are actually 2. No matter how you count it, this equals the same number of doors, although the DD's are 20 or so meters longer.

Well, also the doors are wider, that's another thing. But, this comparison is really pointless, because on an SD train you could make the entire side of the train a door, which was actually the case, there are trains from the past where every seat had it's own door. You couldn't do that with a DD, unless the DD had low platforms.

(Neutral)

The decks:

It doesn't really matter if you do have more space on a train, via the use of double decks, because the same result will be found, I don't want to use the decks, because of reasons. Many people don't want to sit down, for various reasons, if I were to hop on a train, the odds are I would decide to stand in the doorway regardless, so wouldn't it be smarter to rather then have two decks, just remove all the seats, put more doors in, so that pax like myself who are a little bit autistic can avoid having to sit next to an unknown person on a train?

(SD)

The network:

Sydney has a very different rail network, one that makes it very expensive to buy trains for, this price prevents expansion, the price figures into every future decision. Am I going to expand the network? Hell no, it costs too damn much. Imagine if Sydney had not gone to DD, and had instead fixed it's signalling, maybe there would have been more money to run more track, run more stations, maybe they would have more tunnels by now? Every negative decision you make dooms future decisions. So, one day, as Sydney slowly adopts a metro style SD system, the old DD network will eventually be gone, slowly and surely, that is the progression. Give it 50 years, and I don't see DD in Sydney surviving, but then again I won't be there to see it, so please, bookmark this post, dig it up down the track, I am totally right.

(SD)

Public Vs Private:

Depending on where you live, this goes in two different directions. I live in a Labor area, boooo, no privatisation, unions FTW. Libs? Sell sell sell!!!!

Honestly, I can see past the arguments, see, you need your train network in public hands, only a government could give the tick of approval to expensive DD sets. And that's the thing, private really is no different, they simply operate the network, because public workers are the laziest sacks of crap you'll ever meet. At least a private operator cares about making itself money. A private operator can say, let's skip those pesky stations as we are late, or let's cancel services to avoid fines due to a loophole.

(Not sure)

We need to do this for X reason:

Pipe dreams never come true, I've had many in my time, but the simple thing in life is that things are the way they are due to the background economics you aren't privy to. So many factors, but in the end, there is always the impulse to keep things running the same. In the end that is how business works. Attempt to innovate, but at the end of the day, everyone needs to wake up each day and keep the big machine turning.

A business I worked for recently had a very outdated database entry system, that someone in a previous lifetime had paid good money for. Now, as much as it could be proven the thing had to go, the argument still stands that a previous investment needs to be seen through. If you have a double track running through a cutting in the ground, multiple bridges, and km's of track and multiple stations. These items being in good standing, you aren't going to just rip them out of the ground in favour of a tunnel underneath Sydney road. This is by far the most retarded thing I've ever heard of (I'm autistic so I'm allowed to use the word retarded).

Infrastructure is generally used until it's at the end of it's life. The Citylink tunnel will be used until someone decides it's no longer safe, just like Kooyong tram square, hell, they will probably keep that tram square going until significant damage occurs to a train or to someone's health. Look at the twisted pair phone network, it's been in place for how long? It looks like the biggest mess, and it's still going to be there for a few more decades to come, use it until it crumbles.

This was an Upfield suggestion? So, that anyone knows, Upfield is a short line, very close station spacing, single track for the last station which is a long distance from Gowrie. Now, if nobody is rushing to upgrade this to dual track, how is this going to get a metro tunnel? It's the most incoherent babble from someone that doesn't live in the real world. It's like me debating World War 2 and the Great War with my grand parents, who were Jewish and from Britain. What could I possibly add to the subject? It's stupid. Simple as that. How about sunken railways? Well, you know, we could do it, we'd have to build it next to the current line to avoid preventing services, would have to bulldoze a lot of property, oh you didn't think this was Simcity and it was going to occur at the press of a button?

Eventually half way to laying down track 2 years after the first hipster appartment complex was pulled to the ground, possibly a heritage listed property too, one of those factory conversions on the west side of the line. Someone is going to scratch their head and go, you know what, we have 4 tracks, it seems a shame to bulldoze those other two, maybe we could turn those tracks into a bikeway, yes, a bikeway, now you are on the money, and we could put bike cafes all the way down the bikeway, but we already have a bike path already? Well, let's turn that into, into, hmm, what should we turn that into? Umm, another bikeway. Yes, that will bring in a lot of tax dollars.

You ever think that maybe there just isn't any logic in this? For example, why not build a completely new train line, keep the old one there, and this one, well, let's build it to Doncaster instead, I think they need this more then us hipsters and low-socio's on the Upfield line (this is my line BTW).
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I'm going to respond to a tonne of things I have read in this thread:

Doors on a train:

A few people had this argument, and I failed to see the point, DD trains are 4 or 8 carriages, possessing 2 doors per carriage. Compare that to SD being 3 or 6 carriage, and 3 doors per carriage, which some are actually 2. No matter how you count it, this equals the same number of doors, although the DD's are 20 or so meters longer.

Well, also the doors are wider, that's another thing. But, this comparison is really pointless, because on an SD train you could make the entire side of the train a door, which was actually the case, there are trains from the past where every seat had it's own door. You couldn't do that with a DD, unless the DD had low platforms.
BezLovesTrains


Yes, door width seems to matter more than the number of doors. Those trains from the past would have been isolated compartment, long gone from conventional rail, but actually still found on many monorail trains.

It doesn't really matter if you do have more space on a train, via the use of double decks, because the same result will be found, I don't want to use the decks, because of reasons. Many people don't want to sit down, for various reasons, if I were to hop on a train, the odds are I would decide to stand in the doorway regardless, so wouldn't it be smarter to rather then have two decks, just remove all the seats, put more doors in, so that pax like myself who are a little bit autistic can avoid having to sit next to an unknown person on a train?
BezLovesTrains


That would depend on how long the train goes without stopping.

Sydney has a very different rail network, one that makes it very expensive to buy trains for, this price prevents expansion, the price figures into every future decision. Am I going to expand the network? Hell no, it costs too damn much. Imagine if Sydney had not gone to DD, and had instead fixed it's signalling, maybe there would have been more money to run more track, run more stations, maybe they would have more tunnels by now? Every negative decision you make dooms future decisions. So, one day, as Sydney slowly adopts a metro style SD system, the old DD network will eventually be gone, slowly and surely, that is the progression. Give it 50 years, and I don't see DD in Sydney surviving, but then again I won't be there to see it, so please, bookmark this post, dig it up down the track, I am totally right.
BezLovesTrains


Remember that Sydney suburban pioneered the double decked multiple unit, which has since spread and continues to spread around the world. Remember that it went double decked in the 1960s, consider the signalling methods that existed at that time.

The biggest negative decision made in the history of Australia railways, however insignificant it may have seemed back then, dates right back to the construction of the first railway in Australasia. Originally Victoria and New South Wales both agreed to the Irish gauge, but after Victoria started construction, New South Wales opted for a narrower gauge. See this thread on another forum.

As for the rest, my appologies but: Too long; didn't read.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.