Malcolm Turncoat's imploding act

 
  RustyRick Chief Commissioner

Location: South West Vic
He's been 'liberated' from his job just like all those car industry workers he so flippantly dismissed.
don_dunstan
But they dont get a $300k pa pension.

Rick

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  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
One opinion poll and those Abbott backers seem to be lining up behind Turnbull.
Don't expect the shock-jocks to maintain the rage for very long.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
But they dont get a $300k pa pension.

Rick
RustyRick
Not so nice being sacked, is it Tony? Doesn't feel so good even with a pension most Aussies would only dream of having... you could see the anger on his face yesterday towards the end of his resignation speech.

Still don't feel sorry for him.

I saw the first 'preferred PM' opinion poll yesterday was 70% Malcolm Turnbull and 24% Billy Bob Whoever-He-Is. I bet there's a lot of Liberal MP's who are really glad they made the change already but we'll see won't we...
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Google "stopturnbull" to find where a very colourful online dirt file from 2010 exists....
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
He's been 'liberated' from his job just like all those car industry workers he so flippantly dismissed.
Fact Check Alert!

Ford announced that they were closing under a Rudd Government (not Abbott). A couple of months later, just after the federal election resulted in a win for the Libs and Nats, Holden and Toyota announced that they were closing too as Ford was needed to keep the components suppliers at a viable level of production that was necessary for the suppliers to remain in business.

While I'm not interested in sheeting home the "blame" to one particular party. (If there is any "blame" to be allocated, it belongs to the Australian people for not buying local cars.) The closure announcement for Ford happened under an ALP regime and the inevitable announcements of the closure of Holden and Toyota happened as soon as practical after all the hullabaloo of the federal election had died down.

Now you're a decent person, so I'll put your error down to an honest mistake rather than trolling and distorting the facts to suit a partisan agenda. Wink
Bogong
Let's also not forget Mitsubishi, a car manufacturer that departed from under the watch of two levels of ALP government...
  PaulAustin Locomotive Fireman

I expect the media pack, having done "get Abbott", will now move on to "get Shorten."
  Showtime Chief Train Controller

It had to happen
If Abbott had gone to the next election with Joe Turkey still as treasurer, then the ALP would have had a real chance of winning, so they stepped in when Abbott wouldn't send Joe packing
Imagine an Australia run by that dim witted clot Bill Shorten?
  locojoe67 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gen X purgatory/urban Joh-land
Those contemplating the imminent closure of vehicle manufacturing...

Should recall the Button plan. Aimed at reducing the number of manufacturers and vehicle models produced. An initiative of the labour party under Hawke.

Nissan went first in 1994, followed later by Mitsubishi. And now the remaining three are almost gone.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Those contemplating the imminent closure of vehicle manufacturing...

Should recall the Button plan. Aimed at reducing the number of manufacturers and vehicle models produced. An initiative of the labour party under Hawke.

Nissan went first in 1994, followed later by Mitsubishi. And now the remaining three are almost gone.
locojoe67
And add to that the almost wholesale departure of local textile manufacturing in the 1980s while the ALP was in power.  Whatever political party is in charge is virtually irrelevant due to global market forces and so on....  Unless of course you reintroduce huge tariffs on imports etc which won't happen now.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Did anyone see the interesting article on News Ltd this afternoon about Malcolm - apparently he already has several of the independent senators already in his court and is working on the Greens. They were trying to imply in the article that if he gets enough senators he won't need the Nationals any longer - not in either house of Parliament.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
Those contemplating the imminent closure of vehicle manufacturing...

Should recall the Button plan. Aimed at reducing the number of manufacturers and vehicle models produced. An initiative of the labour party under Hawke.

Nissan went first in 1994, followed later by Mitsubishi. And now the remaining three are almost gone.
locojoe67
Exactly, the whole manufacturing downfall started with Labor, and specifically, Paul Keating. Mitsubishi was also persecuted by the media for a long time before closure, and that persecution ran straight to Ford. Sadly the media has been knifing australian car makers for years, so one has to wonder how much of it people listened to.

I'm hopeful of Turnbull being a far superior PM. He certainly is very centrist for the Liberals.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Exactly, the whole manufacturing downfall started with Labor, and specifically, Paul Keating. Mitsubishi was also persecuted by the media for a long time before closure, and that persecution ran straight to Ford. Sadly the media has been knifing australian car makers for years, so one has to wonder how much of it people listened to.
Alco_Haulic
Politicians destroyed the car industry from the Button Plan onwards - but Rudd and Gillard came to the rescue with money to help the manufacturers really transition into the twenty-first century and future-proof our product. It was also to try and help out our manufacturing while its competitiveness was being completely destroyed by our once in a century mining boom - but Abbott and Hockey did a deal with Warren Truss to sidetrack that money straight into National Party pork-barrelling. They sold out the thousands of hard-working people across the country making world-competitive products for the sake of keeping the Nationals happy.

We've stacked nearly all our export chips on commodities and nothing else - the problem is commodities are nearly all in the toilet right now so hence we have a deteriorating terms of trade and downward pressure on the dollar. If our dollar keeps going down then our elaborately transformed manufactures become much more competitive but the problem is that there's almost nothing left and for the last two years there's been no plan for where we were going to transition to after the inevitable end of the energy/minerals boom.

I'm hopeful of Turnbull being a far superior PM.
Alco_Haulic

I don't know yet if Malcolm Turnbull is going to prove capable of fixing any of these problems but the fact that he's managed to at least start a dialogue with the senate is already a vast improvement on Abbott.

Abbott: Worst PM since McMahon. Every speech a slogan ('Didn't you hear? We stopped the boats') and how much better it would be if he could only get his Medicare co-payment through an obstructionist senate (remember his opening speech at the Brisbane G20?). Honestly the bloke was just a fair dinkum dill - and he didn't have a clue why the public just didn't have any confidence in him.

I notice that he hasn't shown his face in parliament since being sacked (oh! The indignity of having to sit all the way up on the back-bench again). Honestly, I hope he does the honourable thing and also resigns from parliament so we can all put his terrible lacklustre leadership right behind us and let someone with half a brain have a go.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Totally agree with Aaron, Bogong and others on cars, who is to blame and it wasn't the last few years, the rot was entrenched for along time.

1) Australian people for not buying local made under the guise of prestige and foreign is naturally better. People can say what they like about the Falcon and Commodore and I don't have the details on them, but the Camry/Aurion is a world class product, 5th highest volume selling car in the world and Australia actually exports them. I've been told by internal Toyota management a few years back these biggest mistake was canning the local Corolla (world No.1 seller) over the failed Avalon attempt. If nothing else it led to the Aurion being an Aussie home grown development, a first for Toyota worldwide.

The Commodore is also a respected export product.

Look at the top reliability data from UK, German manufactures are way down, Honda and Toyota are in top 3.

2) Australia and state govt(s), yes the industry cannot live for ever on subsidies and do we really want levies on imports, but was there other options. Button plan was targeted to get higher volumes from less models to keep the production lines profitable. but there should have been far more strings attached to those subsidies.

A number of govt departments and heads of govt stopped buying local made, why? Former Premier of Qld, Ms Bligh started it up there.

Failure by govts in the 2000's to control the $A didn't help either.

3) Industry, Ford stopped bothering to export a long time back. Meanwhile alongside the Territory they also made the Ford Edge overseas which is a very similar. Range was also limited and focused solely on only a few not dissimilar models. Historically these sold very well, but times changed and they didn't.

There is more to make low prices quality cars than wages, especially on production lines that is mostly a robot. Thailand has issues with exports every year due to flooding. German wages are higher, but they still make cars people want to buy.

4) Unions?


Its ridiculous that after 2017, not one car will be made in Oz, but we will import +1,000,000pa.
  Alco_Haulic Chief Commissioner

Location: Eating out...
Totally agree with Aaron, Bogong and others on cars, who is to blame and it wasn't the last few years, the rot was entrenched for along time.

1) Australian people for not buying local made under the guise of prestige and foreign is naturally better. People can say what they like about the Falcon and Commodore and I don't have the details on them, but the Camry/Aurion is a world class product, 5th highest volume selling car in the world and Australia actually exports them. I've been told by internal Toyota management a few years back these biggest mistake was canning the local Corolla (world No.1 seller) over the failed Avalon attempt. If nothing else it led to the Aurion being an Aussie home grown development, a first for Toyota worldwide.

The Commodore is also a respected export product.

Look at the top reliability data from UK, German manufactures are way down, Honda and Toyota are in top 3.

2) Australia and state govt(s), yes the industry cannot live for ever on subsidies and do we really want levies on imports, but was there other options. Button plan was targeted to get higher volumes from less models to keep the production lines profitable. but there should have been far more strings attached to those subsidies.

A number of govt departments and heads of govt stopped buying local made, why? Former Premier of Qld, Ms Bligh started it up there.

Failure by govts in the 2000's to control the $A didn't help either.

3) Industry, Ford stopped bothering to export a long time back. Meanwhile alongside the Territory they also made the Ford Edge overseas which is a very similar. Range was also limited and focused solely on only a few not dissimilar models. Historically these sold very well, but times changed and they didn't.

There is more to make low prices quality cars than wages, especially on production lines that is mostly a robot. Thailand has issues with exports every year due to flooding. German wages are higher, but they still make cars people want to buy.

4) Unions?


Its ridiculous that after 2017, not one car will be made in Oz, but we will import +1,000,000pa.
RTT_Rules
Unions, I have only heard here say from former workers, but they were the worst enemy when it came wage negotiation time.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

If nothing else it led to the Aurion being an Aussie home grown development, a first for Toyota worldwide.
RTT_Rules
That giving a Camry a different bumper, a V6 in the front and a different name is considered an achievement says a lot about how little Toyota Altona contributed to Australian engineering excellence in its last few years of rent-seeking dependency on subsidies.

In other countries it would have just been called a V6 Camry.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I've been told by internal Toyota management a few years back these biggest mistake was canning the local Corolla (world No.1 seller) over the failed Avalon attempt.
RTT_Rules
The locally assembled Corolla had significant problems with poor build quality.

This, combined with the world record recall and the stripping down of Thai-built models to meet the anachronistic ADRs, was responsible for trashing Toyota's hard-won reputation for reliability in Australia.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
If nothing else it led to the Aurion being an Aussie home grown development, a first for Toyota worldwide.
That giving a Camry a different bumper, a V6 in the front and a different name is considered an achievement says a lot about how little Toyota Altona contributed to Australian engineering excellence in its last few years of rent-seeking dependency on subsidies.

In other countries it would have just been called a V6 Camry.
justapassenger
The Aurion has a different skin all over and no its not called a V6 Camry in other countries. In Malaysia it has a different name in a smaller engine package (3 sizes all 2.X). The shape is considered more prestigious than the Camry and hence driving around the more wealthy part of KL you see a lot of them (minus the wing).

In Dubai the Camry and Aurion are different cars, like Aus, all Aurion's in Dubai have a wing.

The marketting of the Aurion and its design was a major coo for Toyota Australia. The Avalon was not well received and not considered a strong alt choice by those in the Falcon/Commodore market. The Aurion skin and only having the V6 while Camry only had the 4cyl was deliberately designed to go after the large market for which it was relatively successful in the first version, so much so the shape was copied to other Toyota plants around the world, such as Malaysia. Previously no non-Japanese based Toyota production factory had designed a car.

On the technical side, the Aurion was designed to be built on the back-bone of a Camry, thus reducing production costs dramatically as they knew that Head Office would not approve development and tooling for another model of similar specs to the lack luster Avalon. The Aurion was a low risk model with very low development costs that achieved its target sales in the first model.

For the record, I bought my Aussie made 2011 Aurion Grande, Left Hand drive new in Dubai for $A32,000 (5% import tax), The Aussie price in 2011 $45,000 to $49,000 ( I say a range because its not a full Grande as you see them in Oz, but more than the model at $45,000). Why the difference?
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I've been told by internal Toyota management a few years back these biggest mistake was canning the local Corolla (world No.1 seller) over the failed Avalon attempt.
The locally assembled Corolla had significant problems with poor build quality.

This, combined with the world record recall and the stripping down of Thai-built models to meet the anachronistic ADRs, was responsible for trashing Toyota's hard-won reputation for reliability in Australia.
justapassenger
Local assembly of the Corolla was finished in 1999 with the E100 model. I was refering to cars made in last 10 years because yes there were numerous issues with local models but many imports were also hardly problem free and there are a list of European cars I could mention. My dad bought a 1982 Corona new (Aussie made), did 180,000km in 4 years, only non PM item was a clutch plate.

During the mid to late 90's Australia went from having just the historic main competition ie
Toyota Corolla
Nissan Pulsar
Mitsubishi Colt/Lancer
Ford Laser/Mazda 323
Holden name escape me

For which Toyota typically had the lead to suddenly face competition from the brigade of cheap Sth Korean models, Malaysian Proton, I think even Ladas etc. I bought a 5 year old 1992 Nissan Pulsar (one of last Aussie made ones) in 1997 for $14,000 ex rental in Tassie. Typical going price, but I could have bought a EXCEL new (with all its issues) for that.

With sales declining, Toyota chose to go to the Avalon and go after the larger car market, the Avalon was popular in USA. The strategy was a failure and with the cheaper small cars starting to get alot of bad press and many unhappy customers over their ongoing poor reliability (many have since closed shop in Australia or completely), the main stream manufacturers got sales back and this is where Toyota told us that in hide sight had they kept the locally made Corolla sales would have far exceeded the Avalon.  

Ironically the Daewoo ? I think was built on a previous model Corolla platform and used a Aussie made engine.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Totally agree with Aaron, Bogong and others on cars, who is to blame and it wasn't the last few years, the rot was entrenched for along time.

1) Australian people for not buying local made under the guise of prestige and foreign is naturally better. People can say what they like about the Falcon and Commodore and I don't have the details on them, but the Camry/Aurion is a world class product, 5th highest volume selling car in the world and Australia actually exports them. I've been told by internal Toyota management a few years back these biggest mistake was canning the local Corolla (world No.1 seller) over the failed Avalon attempt. If nothing else it led to the Aurion being an Aussie home grown development, a first for Toyota worldwide.

The Commodore is also a respected export product.

Look at the top reliability data from UK, German manufactures are way down, Honda and Toyota are in top 3.

2) Australia and state govt(s), yes the industry cannot live for ever on subsidies and do we really want levies on imports, but was there other options. Button plan was targeted to get higher volumes from less models to keep the production lines profitable. but there should have been far more strings attached to those subsidies.

A number of govt departments and heads of govt stopped buying local made, why? Former Premier of Qld, Ms Bligh started it up there.

Failure by govts in the 2000's to control the $A didn't help either.

3) Industry, Ford stopped bothering to export a long time back. Meanwhile alongside the Territory they also made the Ford Edge overseas which is a very similar. Range was also limited and focused solely on only a few not dissimilar models. Historically these sold very well, but times changed and they didn't.

There is more to make low prices quality cars than wages, especially on production lines that is mostly a robot. Thailand has issues with exports every year due to flooding. German wages are higher, but they still make cars people want to buy.

4) Unions?


Its ridiculous that after 2017, not one car will be made in Oz, but we will import +1,000,000pa.
Unions, I have only heard here say from former workers, but they were the worst enemy when it came wage negotiation time.
Alco_Haulic
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, How come when some one else wants a decent wage its the devils work but when I want a decent wage "everything is comming up roses".

If all wages were cut by 20 percent, which as what a lot of the establishment seem to want, the economy would completely crash as most would not be able to keep up all there loan (including housing) payments.

woodford
  Carnot Minister for Railways


For the record, I bought my Aussie made 2011 Aurion Grande, Left Hand drive new in Dubai for $A32,000 (5% import tax), The Aussie price in 2011 $45,000 to $49,000 ( I say a range because its not a full Grande as you see them in Oz, but more than the model at $45,000). Why the difference?
RTT_Rules
Car companies will try to flog off cars at the price the market will tolerate to balance supply and demand.  Mind you, very few Aurions (or Falcons etc.) sell at RRP.  Most are sold at heavily discounted prices.

Some classic examples:
- Mitsubishi originally had 380 GTs priced at $48000 in 2005.  By 2007 they were trickling out the door for $10000 less!
- 1989 Ford Capri (made in Australia) but priced for $1000s more than the same car with extra features that was exported to the USA.

Is it any wonder the local car industry is in its death throws?

Incidentally, wages only make up a very small percentage of manufacturing cost.  Inflexible and inefficient work practices and supply chains are usually a much bigger factor.

Getting back to the topic - Malcolm will face the dilemma of whether to spend big $$$ on locally made Defence hardware and gain a few votes, or spend less on imports.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Unions, I have only heard here say from former workers, but they were the worst enemy when it came wage negotiation time.
Alco_Haulic
I heard the opposite: Supposedly they were very cooperative when they got the membership to agree to a 2-year wage freeze at GMH. But who knows - it's all a moot point now since Holden are leaving in less than two years anyway; and the last Falcon will roll off the line at Broadmeadows in less than 12 months.

Its ridiculous that after 2017, not one car will be made in Oz, but we will import +1,000,000pa.
RTT_Rules
It will cost a fortune when we have to import absolutely everything we drive - our balance of trade is already headed towards 'banana republic' territory. Cars will be unaffordable for everyday people like they were before the war.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Unions, I have only heard here say from former workers, but they were the worst enemy when it came wage negotiation time.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, How come when some one else wants a decent wage its the devils work but when I want a decent wage "everything is comming up roses".

If all wages were cut by 20 percent, which as what a lot of the establishment seem to want, the economy would completely crash as most would not be able to keep up all there loan (including housing) payments.

woodford
woodford
So what is a decent wage for working on an assembly line? If the number is too high, then like textile this is an industry we choose not to have. Its no longer about what WE think, its about what the world is willing to pay.

Faced with this the choices are
- lower wages for the same task,
- become far more productive than our neighbors making cars for less
- accept we cannot afford a car industry and the workers will find other jobs or unemployment at the expense of other taxpayers.

If the other jobs pay even less, then perhaps the lower pay was better. If the other jobs pay more, then closure of the industry was justified.

Personal experience from 2000, I met some operators from a sister plant in CQ. I found out they had not been given a pay rise in 4 years and union supported this (AWU I think). Why because due to rise in Chinese competition and Asian currency crises the company was on its knees. The unions were shown the books and told make a choice. Retain wages as they are and have a job or ask for an increase for which we will close the doors tomorrow and good luck with your new careers. The region at the time was flat economically with only a decrease in rents etc.

Kurri Kurri smelter went through the same in 2011, unions didn't accept the companies offer of no payrise due to market conditions. The smelter closed 12mth later. Did they cause it to close, no $A and metal LME, but they were the final straw. However at least they then had a booming coal sector to fall back on.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Unions, I have only heard here say from former workers, but they were the worst enemy when it came wage negotiation time.
I heard the opposite: Supposedly they were very cooperative when they got the membership to agree to a 2-year wage freeze at GMH. But who knows - it's all a moot point now since Holden are leaving in less than two years anyway; and the last Falcon will roll off the line at Broadmeadows in less than 12 months.

Its ridiculous that after 2017, not one car will be made in Oz, but we will import +1,000,000pa.
It will cost a fortune when we have to import absolutely everything we drive - our balance of trade is already headed towards 'banana republic' territory. Cars will be unaffordable for everyday people like they were before the war.
don_dunstan
GM's departure was mostly driven by GM's bailout conditions from US govt and I think someone posted here GM even went into bat for the unions over the wages issue. The Commodore and Cruze were and are both doing well sales wise, although the Commodore is down on its 90's 20% of the entire market at its peak, however this is an exception in sales. I'm sure the guys could work for free and they would still go.

Salaries obviously have a sufficient enough impact on car making costs that they are moving to Thailand.

If the Australian economy goes through a prolonged flat period, we will end up like NZ was at least a few years back. The average age of our car fleet will get older. 3 yr old 2nd hand cars will again be worth far more than in recent times and the used car industry will again dominate the market with more used car sale yards opening.

Ultimately the market will move to smaller cars to compensate for higher prices. ie end of 2-3t SUV and 4x4's being used as mum's taxis.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
So, getting back to topic, why has Turnbull's name been altered in the title of the thread? Are we showing our bias already Brian?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
So, getting back to topic, why has Turnbull's name been altered in the title of the thread? Are we showing our bias already Brian?
TheBlacksmith
That disgusting rag the Herald-Sun called him 'Turncoat Turnbull' on the FRONT PAGE on Tuesday - I thought that was not respectful towards our Prime Minister elect regardless of what you think of him. Every bit as bad as calling Julia Gillard 'Juliar' and 'Ditch the b*tch'.

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