Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 13 Jan 2016 16:51
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I've been reading all that S302 has had to say, and had a brief look through the website that he has mentioned.  While I understand the concerns of residents, as I've mentioned before they are only one group of stakeholders in this project. There are of course others associated with the railway: driver, passengers, cyclists, motorists, etc.

I'm just wondering if this group has heard of the infamous project proposal once known as 'Operation Double-Fault' - the plan to drop the Glen Waverly Line between Heyington - Glen Iris and then cover it with decks? If not, this article from 2007 might refresh memories http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/03/16/1173722750206.html. The proposed cost was $4 Billion for a total distance of about 4km's. Initially transport planners were sceptical, then they warmed to the idea, then the idea was dropped. This plan from S302 and his group sounds very similar and despite the best intentions of keeping services running while they construct the trench, even an extreme amateur like me can see this will be difficult, not to mention the 'choke point' single line service.

I think what this group fails to appreciate is that there is a huge cost in covering up railway lines, and in Melbourne it just isn't done because the economics don't stack up. Daniel Bowen has explained as much in this short blog post: http://www.danielbowen.com/2016/02/07/value-capture-over-rail-lines/.  Not to mention the costs associated with extra safety systems that are needed with underground railways. I believe this group thinks that it's well-intentioned but much more research is needed. And then there is the Gas line that supplies 60% of Melbourne's gas. I don't know if this group has had a close look at the Ormond/McKinnon/Bentleigh project but even that is not going to be a full trench - the line will be close to ground level in between station due to old creeks/large drains.

Again, I understand this project brings concerns from some, but I think what they are proposing is very expensive and disruptive.

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  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
ArodH, a bidirectional single is only really needed between Murrumbeena and Caulfield, but for considerations of points, bus forecourts and platform pedestrian capacity you would run Oakleigh - Caulfield. Between Murrumbeena and Oakleigh, where tha land opens up, you could maintain an existing, additional track for parking trains to start your cycle. A bit of fencing will help and  I would join the neighbourhood watch committee to keep an eye out for spray painters.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Jdkrte, the total conception of the government is ultimately a four line solution, with only an initial 2 lines for $1.6 billion, so double that and add variations and you start to understand what needs to be spent to make rail work, rather than just the Vicroads agenda. This is a Vicroads project. Level crossing removal is a Vicroads project. Angry drivers at boom gates are the electorate. But these drivers are inevitably off to work or dropping kids off to school that one day will need meaningful employment. So developing the economy is a prudent, long term and wise thing to do. Therefore genuine, inter generational improvement in Metro and regional passenger services that supports decongesting roads, faster time to work, regional development is good government. Therefore decongesting and improving the capacity of Melbourne Port and supporting businesses in Dandenong to develop the economy and jobs is good government. So four tracks would be a wise thing to do. Then you have a conception of Skyrail that leaves 9m of state land, reserved for the development of rail, alienated between two elevated structures and bottled in by stations. Then you have a conception to buy up to 150 freehold properties to run two future elevated lines. So you are both wasting land and buying land that is unnecessary with cut & cover.   Our contention is do what is right for drivers at boom gates, use existing government land efficiently, avoid the need to compulsorily acquire 150 properties and focus on real improvements to rail and the economy.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Covering over railway cuttings Is totally cost prohibitive.
So you need to delete that from your plans.

The cost of building a roof over railway tracks Is much higher than buying existing freehold properties.
Have a look at the railway cutting In the Inner blue chip suburbs.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Lets agree that the Glen Waverly line is a Metro passenger line leading to some excellent, fast and affordable eateries. Lets agree that the Dandy corridor is of national significance, principally as potentially the busiest freight corridor in the Southern Hemisphere. Why would the government complete noise assessments in 2015 for a dual track Hastings-Cranbourne-Dandenong if they didn't feel the same? So getting this corridor right through a choke point is of national importance. It really needs some federal interest and federal funding. If you were thinking more than just what Vicroads wants. Now that we are leasing out Melbourne Port and contemplating further low interest loans we have a government with a pocketful of cash that wants to do things in its interest, which is get re-elected. So it's horizons are limited to ribbon cutting at boom gates. It is a short term government that will leave a legacy of poor inter generational infrastructure leaving our kids grappling with the same problems. My hero is Surveyor Hoddle, who gave Melbourne 30 metre wide streets when a donkey track would have done.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On cost. To get away from opinion, mine or yours or a bloggers, lets work with numbers. So the government says $1.6 billion. Can we agree that variations are the name of the infrastructure profit game and round this up to $2 billion? Lets accept that 'like wars being over by Christmas' and government budgets coming in as predicted is like finding a Tasmanian Tiger we may be up for more. But lets stick with $2 billion for two tracks, stage 1 only. Now we work out that the concrete you need for 1.2 dia x 20 m long CFA piles and then the rest above for Skyrail is the same for Cut & Cover. So the main difference is excavation, dealing with utilities, dealing with soil. So the hardheadeds say add 40%, so C&C lifts from $2 billion to $2.8 billion. So let's say in the future with C&C we don't need to buy 150 freehold properties at $150 million to run the inevitably required Stage 2 additional two tracks, so the spread reduces from $800 million to $650 million. Maybe you could ask for the frozen Federal East West Tunnel money to be used for generating a better national outcome for rail freight to be used? Maybe, instead of spending another $2billion for the inevitable Stage 2, you could 'Do it once and do it properly', and do 4 tracks, while all the excavators and crews are there? So how much saving would accrue from this approach, in a 4 track conception, that gives you 4 tracks from Melbourne Port to Dandenong, built in a way that the community supports? Isn't government for the People?
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Was your Toorak Tunnel cut & cover or was it tunnel boring? Was your Toorak Tunnel about creating square metres of real estate at public cost? As a PPP with private enterprise doing the budgeting it was probably costed more reliably than public service costing, and yet the worry bead brigade wanted to go ahead with it, so there must have been a dollar in it. It's not so much what a thing costs, but what the return is.  Still this is a dead end metropolitan track, with apologies to the good citizens at the Blackburn Rd end. Dandy is of national significance. So in the Dandy corridor, for the hard earned held in trust for me by the Government via the recycling of public property, are we getting value for money? Vicroads says yes. If you care about serious intergenerational economic outcomes and you love a railway line, Skyrail ain't the type of coal to put in your firebox.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
ArodH, a bidirectional single is only really needed between Murrumbeena and Caulfield, but for considerations of points, bus forecourts and platform pedestrian capacity you would run Oakleigh - Caulfield. Between Murrumbeena and Oakleigh, where tha land opens up, you could maintain an existing, additional track for parking trains to start your cycle. A bit of fencing will help and  I would join the neighbourhood watch committee to keep an eye out for spray painters.
S302 Spirit of Progress
It takes 8 minutes for a train to traverse the section between Caulfield to Oakleigh stopping all stations. With your single track plan, are you seriously suggesting that during peak hour when trains run a few minutes apart that you congest the services that much with one being on that section at any one time? The train congestion at either end would be incredible - this isn't a seriously thought out plan.

In relation to the Glen Waverly line, Operation Double-Fault was going to be cut-and-cover. As this isn't going to happen, crossings will now be removed individually. According to the LXRA plan, Toorak Rd is next.

I see you have been planning for track amplification between Oakleigh - Caulfield but the problem with that plan will always be Caulfield to the City. Unless the Metro tunnel is ever extended from South Yarra to Caulfield then the track amplification plan is moot anyway. While provision for extra tracks has been made at Springvale & Westall, I don't think that extra tracks are going to happen for while until they work out what to do between Caulfield and the City.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Where do all the trains go during the middle of the day between the AM and PM peaks ?

There Is no longer any layover yard In the City (they built the expanded Melbourne Park Tennis Centre over the former one)

Trains that come from Dandenong return to Dandenong via the City Loop.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
S302 Spirit of Progress
It seems a bit illogical what you're proposing with this. What happens to all the 000's of people who will need to travel the other way during peak hour? Monash Uni students? I know for myself that I travel to Dandenong once a week for work. Are you essentially wanting to put all those people on buses for trips the other way?
  toastywarmhamster Station Master

Location: Space and Time
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
S302 Spirit of Progress
Not everyone goes to the city in the morning...a lot of people travel from the city to Caulfield (Monash Uni), Oakleigh (major Bus interchange) and Huntingdale (Monash Clayton). How would you propose they reach their destination?

Whilst the Book of Rules accomodates the traffic of a double line being worked over a single line (Single Line Working SLW) this would never happen as you need a pilot to authorise you to enter the section, you would then need the pilot to authorise entry into the section for the return journey.. So whilst the time for a SAS service from CFD to OAK is 8 minutes with turnaround times a train would leave OAK for CFD approximately every 28 minutes at a minimum - would also result in passengers changing services at CFD to reach the city.

Whilst SLW is allowed it hasn't been used for over 2 years all projects and repairs etc are completed under absolute occupation ie closure of line in all directions between termination location A to Terminating location B.

Alternative plans are all well and good, but it is all too late. I have never understood the argument of dividing the community when there is a rail line presently dividing the community. You may say it is not a NIMBY argument, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck......
  torrens5022 Junior Train Controller

If Caulfield is such a crush point, between Dandenong, Freight, Gippsland and Frankston trains, why can't other corridors be used and upgraded to spread the load?    
The Alamein line is under utilised, could this be extended to Glen Waverley?   A rebuilt Camberwell to Glen Waverley line would have 9 stations, 6 Alamein line reduced to 4 plus Holmesglen, Jordanville, Mt Waverley, Syndal and Glen Waverley, It would only be around 1 to 2km longer, is there capacity on the Burnley group up to Camberwell for this?  (extra track?)    
You could then create a new line from Cranbourne or Pakenham via Darling,    
These would use the Old Outer Circle line, with duplication.    
It would spread the load, probably really expensive though.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
If Caulfield is such a crush point, between Dandenong, Freight, Gippsland and Frankston trains, why can't other corridors be used and upgraded to spread the load?    
The Alamein line is under utilised, could this be extended to Glen Waverley?   A rebuilt Camberwell to Glen Waverley line would have 9 stations, 6 Alamein line reduced to 4 plus Holmesglen, Jordanville, Mt Waverley, Syndal and Glen Waverley, It would only be around 1 to 2km longer, is there capacity on the Burnley group up to Camberwell for this?  (extra track?)    
You could then create a new line from Cranbourne or Pakenham via Darling,    
These would use the Old Outer Circle line, with duplication.    
It would spread the load, probably really expensive though.
torrens5022
You're right, it would be expensive. I think I saw a quote of $1 Billion for a proposal to extend the Alamein line to Oakleigh via East Malvern & Chadstone SC with tunnels. And there would be no extra capacity between Camberwell & the city even with what might become a 4th track (there is some capacity to build a 4th track up from Camberwell but only in certain locations). The only way there would be a track between Camberwell & Oakleigh would be to provide shuttles between the two stations or, as some people have suggested, extend to Huntingdale to link up with the much-proposed Rowville line.

But I digress...
  ossi2 Station Staff

I've been reading all that S302 has had to say, and had a brief look through the website that he has mentioned.  While I understand the concerns of residents, as I've mentioned before they are only one group of stakeholders in this project. There are of course others associated with the railway: driver, passengers, cyclists, motorists, etc.

I'm just wondering if this group has heard of the infamous project proposal once known as 'Operation Double-Fault' - the plan to drop the Glen Waverly Line between Heyington - Glen Iris and then cover it with decks? If not, this article from 2007 might refresh memories http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/03/16/1173722750206.html. The proposed cost was $4 Billion for a total distance of about 4km's. Initially transport planners were sceptical, then they warmed to the idea, then the idea was dropped. This plan from S302 and his group sounds very similar and despite the best intentions of keeping services running while they construct the trench, even an extreme amateur like me can see this will be difficult, not to mention the 'choke point' single line service.

I think what this group fails to appreciate is that there is a huge cost in covering up railway lines, and in Melbourne it just isn't done because the economics don't stack up. Daniel Bowen has explained as much in this short blog post: http://www.danielbowen.com/2016/02/07/value-capture-over-rail-lines/.  Not to mention the costs associated with extra safety systems that are needed with underground railways. I believe this group thinks that it's well-intentioned but much more research is needed. And then there is the Gas line that supplies 60% of Melbourne's gas. I don't know if this group has had a close look at the Ormond/McKinnon/Bentleigh project but even that is not going to be a full trench - the line will be close to ground level in between station due to old creeks/large drains.

Again, I understand this project brings concerns from some, but I think what they are proposing is very expensive and disruptive.
jdekorte
Are you certain that the proposed cost of $4 billion for Operation Double-Fault was just for dropping the Glen Waverley train line? $4 billion figure is included in various articles with different references - the worth of the real estate captured and estimated market value.

My guess would be the draining experience of dealing with the various statutory authorities is more problematic than the cost benefit analysis.

The gas transmission pipeline is due for replacement next decade.  Not much time between Skyrail construction and replacement of the pipeline. Some of the Skyrail may need to be removed to replace the gas transmission pipeline. What a waste of taxpayer's money. Why not fix both in the Grange Road area together?

An elevated railway needs pylons. Some of the pylons are positioned within 3 metres of the pipeline, with a concrete protection structure between pylons and pipeline.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

Are you certain that the proposed cost of $4 billion for Operation Double-Fault was just for dropping the Glen Waverley train line? $4 billion figure is included in various articles with different references - the worth of the real estate captured and estimated market value.
ossi2

Doesn't matter - what you can be certain of is that cost of grade separating was at least $4 billion. You can be certain of this because the project didn't go ahead. This means that ultimately the consortium decided that the return was less than the cost. You can also see this in the history of the project. The consortium announced the project with great fanfare. Then they went quiet. Then they announced a much more financially complex project in which the government would expend a great deal money, and pay the consortium for use. Then the project went dead quiet and wasn't even resurrected when a Liberal government wasn't in power. The speed with which it died (and the fact that it has stayed dead) meant that the economics really didn't stack up.

However, the issue of roofing a trenched line is more complex. A significant part of the roofing cost is in the actual trenching (relocating services, managing the disruption, lowering the line etc). The marginal cost of adding a roof would be relatively low, particularly as the supports for the roof would be constructed during trenching. However, the marginal cost would not be absolutely low as the roof would need to be constructed over an operational railway line. It would need to be done mostly at night when the trains weren't running. So it would be slow.

Further, in the Caulfield to Oakleigh proposal, there would be no financial benefit to balance the cost. The deck is simply an added benefit to the local residents. It's there to match a benefit of the skyrail proposal. In the Glen Waverley line proposal the land was all to be sold.

You can bet that if the noskyrail proposal got up, the government would then look at whether the marginal cost of roofing the line was less than the worth of the land for four story apartment blocks. If it was, the line would be roofed and used for building. If it wasn't, the line would remain an open cutting.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck......
toastywarmhamster
..it's a road project. A Vicroads project. I would talk about it on the roads forum but there ain't one. So we talk about it on a rail forum because you guys are all for bitumen !

So, we spend $1.6 billion to replace 2 working rail tracks with.....um...two rail tracks. No capacity increase unless we spend more on signalling upgrade. So why not just do a signalling upgrade, save an odd billion or two ? If it's about rail ?

Now I have also been kicked off the NIMBY forum because I am a total NIMBY fail. The government wants to build 2 tracks and I want them to build four !

What am I worried about ? The selfie politician. Doesn't matter which political planet you come from, the selfie politician just wants to cut ribbons. So we are tripping over ourselves to build something, ANYTHING, as long as it aligns with an election cycle. If they could spray infrastructure out of a can they would spray it.

So all the bunnies telling me to get out of the way of the show, that it's too late, that I've had 6 weeks to groan and whine and scratch at the door of the LXRA, you're gonna have to try a bit harder to sell this roads project to me, on a rail forum. You can call me a NIMBY and I can call you a bunny, but we'll still be stuck at Go.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena

A significant part of the roofing cost is in the actual trenching (relocating services, managing the disruption, lowering the line etc). The marginal cost of adding a roof would be relatively low, particularly as the supports for the roof would be constructed during trenching. However, the marginal cost would not be absolutely low as the roof would need to be constructed over an operational railway line.
historian
I accept that trenching is 40% more expensive.
I agree that the marginal cost of adding a roof is relatively low as described.
I disagree that adding a roof needs to be constructed over an operating rail line, as it is done at the same time under cut & cover.

The arguments for adding a roof is twofold :

1) It opens up land for development above, offsetting increased capital cost. I agree with the governments push towards "11 MCG's worth of new open space" so a balance must be struck between open space and new real estate - just enough to cover the 40% increase in capital cost?

2) It is about balancing the amenity of local residents with the amenity of ALL residents in the State. Where ALL residents benefit from the economic stimulus of 2 freight tracks, where Gippsland residents benefit from genuine express services, where Cranbourne- Pakenham corridor residents benefit from better Metro and were North -South road traffic benefits from boom gate removal and this comes at a significant cost of the amenity of residents in built up areas then this is less equitable.

So an equitable trade off is roofing. Or you accept that infrastructure building must be inequitable. Once you establish this principal as unremarkable in government then you diminish the commonweal.

Now cut & cover in "You Deserve to Know More" is only asking for 50% of the trench to be covered. This is the mosiac or chessboard pattern of cover that equitably spreads noise and fume burden equally to all residents on the rail corridor. So the cost of roofing is half of that proposed in other projects.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
Not everyone goes to the city in the morning...a lot of people travel from the city to Caulfield (Monash Uni), Oakleigh (major Bus interchange) and Huntingdale (Monash Clayton). How would you propose they reach their destination?

toastywarmhamster
These are my observations as a user going both directions, but I would be happy to bet a long neck of Coopers that they would be backed up by Metro stats :

1. Inbound. AM Peak. Cattle trucks. Noses in armpits. Not enough buses to handle this. Gotta run straight through on the bi directional, all INBOUND on bi directional, same schedule as normal.

2. Outbound. AM Peak. This service stops at Caulfield. Monash & Monash. Monash Caulfield, business as usual. Monash Clayton, instead of doing train - Huntingdale and Bus, just do Bus Caulfield to Monash, probably wipe 40% pax just by doing this. The rest, bus to Oakleigh.

3. Inbound. PM Peak. Kids with feet on seats. Need more exercise. When I was their age I had to walk to school. So this service stops at Oakleigh. Bus to Caulfield. New opportunity to stick chewing gum on to the back of diffrent seats.

4. Outbound. PM Peak. Cattle trucks. Noses in armpits. Not enough buses to handle this. Gotta run straight through on the bi directional, all OUTBOUND on bi directional, same schedule as normal.

Anybody else inconvenienced by this arrangement is either a public servant on flexi time, the drug dealers or users like the chick that held up the train at Caulfield while she held the door then urinated on the platform, then got back on ( better out than in ), lawyers travelling from the CBD to represent clients at Dandenong Court ( while talking loudly on the phone to other clients about AVO's ), bearded hipsters coming home from all night raves, Tatt lady and Lurch getting off at Yarraman with grocery shopping, pensioners on electric scooters with the Australian flag on the handlebars ( We'll need Maxi cabs at Caulfield and Oakleigh ) and people like me, who look like that farming couple with a pitchfork in that old American painting.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck......
..it's a road project. A Vicroads project. I would talk about it on the roads forum but there ain't one. So we talk about it on a rail forum because you guys are all for bitumen !

S302 Spirit of Progress
Yes, level crossing removals will benefit road users. As it will benefit local residents, train operators, train travellers, cyclists, buses, pedestrians, etc.

However I disagree that this is still a VicRoads project. VicRoads may have in the past outlined the projects as part of their brief, but it seems the projects have been taken over by LXRA. It even says so on the (ex) VicRoads Level Crossing Removal webpage: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/planning-and-projects/level-crossing-removal-projects.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Where do all the trains go during the middle of the day between the AM and PM peaks ?

There Is no longer any layover yard In the City (they built the expanded Melbourne Park Tennis Centre over the former one)

Trains that come from Dandenong return to Dandenong via the City Loop.
Nightfire
Gosh where's my mate who filled that Fairfield roofspace with all those cans?
He would sort this out.

The only thing I have to offer is humbly named the "S302 layover", called after the time I leant back on a barstool a little too far...

So this is the stretch of single track Murrumbeena - Oakleigh left redundant by the Bi Directional, linked to the points at Oakleigh. So in the AM the extras shuttle out to Pakenhamstan for the Surge into the City, loop back and, if necessary, hold in S302.

In the PM the extras go "Not Taking Passengers" until the Loop, then take the Surge out, then back to S302. Dandy can hold a few too.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
Not everyone goes to the city in the morning...a lot of people travel from the city to Caulfield (Monash Uni), Oakleigh (major Bus interchange) and Huntingdale (Monash Clayton). How would you propose they reach their destination?
These are my observations as a user going both directions, but I would be happy to bet a long neck of Coopers that they would be backed up by Metro stats :

1. Inbound. AM Peak. Cattle trucks. Noses in armpits. Not enough buses to handle this. Gotta run straight through on the bi directional, all INBOUND on bi directional, same schedule as normal.

2. Outbound. AM Peak. This service stops at Caulfield. Monash & Monash. Monash Caulfield, business as usual. Monash Clayton, instead of doing train - Huntingdale and Bus, just do Bus Caulfield to Monash, probably wipe 40% pax just by doing this. The rest, bus to Oakleigh.

3. Inbound. PM Peak. Kids with feet on seats. Need more exercise. When I was their age I had to walk to school. So this service stops at Oakleigh. Bus to Caulfield. New opportunity to stick chewing gum on to the back of diffrent seats.

4. Outbound. PM Peak. Cattle trucks. Noses in armpits. Not enough buses to handle this. Gotta run straight through on the bi directional, all OUTBOUND on bi directional, same schedule as normal.

Anybody else inconvenienced by this arrangement is either a public servant on flexi time, the drug dealers or users like the chick that held up the train at Caulfield while she held the door then urinated on the platform, then got back on ( better out than in ), lawyers travelling from the CBD to represent clients at Dandenong Court ( while talking loudly on the phone to other clients about AVO's ), bearded hipsters coming home from all night raves, Tatt lady and Lurch getting off at Yarraman with grocery shopping, pensioners on electric scooters with the Australian flag on the handlebars ( We'll need Maxi cabs at Caulfield and Oakleigh ) and people like me, who look like that farming couple with a pitchfork in that old American painting.
S302 Spirit of Progress
As one contributor to this forum has rightly asked, where are the trains stored when not in use after peak service? So you've sent a vast quantity of trains to the city over a single track. Normally these trains are turned around in the Loop and sent back the other way - storage sidings at Westall, Dandenong & Cranbourne store these trains when not in use. There is no other storage capacity in the city area available for this amount of rolling stock. So your plan is illogical in this regard.

Not to mention your completely false and derogatory stereotypes of train travellers. It appears you're not even accepting the reasoning and knowledge of other users in this forum. Again, while we accept that residents have concerns over the project, some of them wanted a rail over solution, and the option was apparently outlined by LXRA at the consultation sessions. Pages 12 & 14 of this report (November 2015) confirm these facts: http://levelcrossings.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/34455/Caulfield-to-Dandenong-consultation-report-November-2015.pdf.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On the single track all services in am go one way, inbound. During pm, all services go outbound. Bi directional means all one way, according to the direction of peak demand.
but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck......
..it's a road project. A Vicroads project. I would talk about it on the roads forum but there ain't one. So we talk about it on a rail forum because you guys are all for bitumen !
Yes, level crossing removals will benefit road users. As it will benefit local residents, train operators, train travellers, cyclists, buses, pedestrians, etc.

However I disagree that this is still a VicRoads project. VicRoads may have in the past outlined the projects as part of their brief, but it seems the projects have been taken over by LXRA. It even says so on the (ex) VicRoads Level Crossing Removal webpage: https://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/planning-and-projects/level-crossing-removal-projects.
jdekorte
OK so can you direct me to the Bitumen Forum where I can discuss what a fabulous Dandenong Nine road project this is? Pakenham Bypass, Geelong Bypass, Westgate, all great road projects. I am a motorist too. And an RACV member, and the RACV Mag is more gushing about this project than a Gina Rinehart owned magazine is about mining and shifting the tax burden away from her to me.  

Two tracks for two tracks. $1.6 billion ?
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Not to mention your completely false and derogatory stereotypes of train travellers.
jdekorte
Do you actually travel on this rail corridor ?

This is the corridor that they put the Hitachis on once they cleared the redbacks out.

Road warrior.
  ARodH Chief Train Controller

Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
The last few resent times that I travelled on the Dandenong line I've observed passengers that fit those observations. How ever I've also noticed them on Sandringham, Glen Waverley & Frankston services.

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