Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 13 Jan 2016 16:51
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Not to mention your completely false and derogatory stereotypes of train travellers.
Do you actually travel on this rail corridor ?

This is the corridor that they put the Hitachis on once they cleared the redbacks out.

Road warrior.
S302 Spirit of Progress
Yes. If you'd read one of my earlier posts you will have noted that I mentioned that I use the line to travel to one of my workplaces once a week. While I've seen plenty of interesting types on the Dandenong line, they're no less interesting than the types of many other Melbourne railway lines. When I travel counter-peak, most of the people in my trains are Uni types (mostly hopping off at Huntingdale), and ever increasing numbers of school students - mostly Nossal High students who travel out to Berwick. Quite often on the down trains during peak most of the seats are taken and people are standing.

I know the Dandenong line quite well and as a train user I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.

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  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.
jdekorte
I don't get it. You travel on a train that already has right of way over road traffic through boom gates.

Then we are swapping two tracks for two tracks. For $1.6 billion Australian dollars.

The only thing that could possibly improve your train experience would be a signalling upgrade to make things run a little faster.

So why not just do the signalling upgrade ?

What is your vested interested in level crossing removals ?

Are you also a motorist stuck at boom gates, a cyclist beating through road traffic as well as a traveler on the Dandy line and the Frankston line and the Sandy line and the Waverly line?

Wotchyado?
  toastywarmhamster Station Master

Location: Space and Time
I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.
I don't get it. You travel on a train that already has right of way over road traffic through boom gates.

Then we are swapping two tracks for two tracks. For $1.6 billion Australian dollars.

The only thing that could possibly improve your train experience would be a signalling upgrade to make things run a little faster.

So why not just do the signalling upgrade ?

What is your vested interested in level crossing removals ?

Are you also a motorist stuck at boom gates, a cyclist beating through road traffic as well as a traveler on the Dandy line and the Frankston line and the Sandy line and the Waverly line?

Wotchyado?
S302 Spirit of Progress

You don't seem to believe that removing conflicts between rail traffic and vehicles and pedestrians as a good thing.

With the signalling upgrade, it is pointless to add more capacity if the level crossings are still there. Aside from the fact you would have a bigger disruption to upgrade the signal infrastructure.

I guess jdekorte has a vested interest like we all do. For safer more reliable public transport, and more reliable journey times by road...If you think just because your house backs onto a rail line you are the only group who can have a say...well then you are more deluded than your posts indicate
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Wotchyezdo?
  A hat with a toucan 2:ele Junior Train Controller

I feel like S302 has run out of things yo say with his latest post, I would quote him but I can't appear to do so on Mobile. Anyways, why are you (S302) so against the skyrail, if you truely want to see an example of a decent rail over, have a look at Patterson and Glenferrie roads! Than have a look at the Burke road rail under. Gardiner really looks so depressing in a cutting. Or if you want a better example, head to Boronia and see how ugly and unsafe feeling that is. You could say that you're replacing two tracks with two tracks, but its something for tje better. If you really think that the sky rail is redundant, than why are you suggesting that a tunnel is somehow better?
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.
I don't get it. You travel on a train that already has right of way over road traffic through boom gates.

Then we are swapping two tracks for two tracks. For $1.6 billion Australian dollars.

The only thing that could possibly improve your train experience would be a signalling upgrade to make things run a little faster.

So why not just do the signalling upgrade ?

What is your vested interested in level crossing removals ?

Are you also a motorist stuck at boom gates, a cyclist beating through road traffic as well as a traveler on the Dandy line and the Frankston line and the Sandy line and the Waverly line?

Wotchyado?
S302 Spirit of Progress
I travel to work on the trains. If a service is delayed because of an incident involving a train and a car (which happens quite often), that delays me and other travellers. So my vested interest in having the crossing removed is knowing that I'll be on a train that won't have the conflict in the future. I also travel on the Frankston line to work from Caulfield and the Frankston line has far more level crossings - far more chances to have that conflict with cars. For you to suggest that I don't have a vested interest is disregarding the needs and wants of train passengers. As I reiterate, there are many stakeholders in these level crossing removal programs, some of whom are more affected by others, but I am one of them because of my use of the services.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
On cost. To get away from opinion, mine or yours or a bloggers, lets work with numbers. So the government says $1.6 billion. Can we agree that variations are the name of the infrastructure profit game and round this up to $2 billion? Lets accept that 'like wars being over by Christmas' and government budgets coming in as predicted is like finding a Tasmanian Tiger we may be up for more. But lets stick with $2 billion for two tracks, stage 1 only. Now we work out that the concrete you need for 1.2 dia x 20 m long CFA piles and then the rest above for Skyrail is the same for Cut & Cover. So the main difference is excavation, dealing with utilities, dealing with soil. So the hardheadeds say add 40%, so C&C lifts from $2 billion to $2.8 billion. So let's say in the future with C&C we don't need to buy 150 freehold properties at $150 million to run the inevitably required Stage 2 additional two tracks, so the spread reduces from $800 million to $650 million. Maybe you could ask for the frozen Federal East West Tunnel money to be used for generating a better national outcome for rail freight to be used? Maybe, instead of spending another $2billion for the inevitable Stage 2, you could 'Do it once and do it properly', and do 4 tracks, while all the excavators and crews are there? So how much saving would accrue from this approach, in a 4 track conception, that gives you 4 tracks from Melbourne Port to Dandenong, built in a way that the community supports? Isn't government for the People?
S302 Spirit of Progress
Where do you get this 40% extra from ?
  oz1235 Junior Train Controller

I seriously wonder why these muppets of the Public Toilets Users Association  but is also known as the Public Transport Users Association has to a negative spin on the comment on something that needs to be done 20 years ago.

Watching Channel 7 news tonight about the possibility of Properties being acquired by the builders for Skyrail.  I do not understand why Daniel Bowen and theses idiots at the PTUA had to comment on property acquisition sounding like they do not agree with Property acquisition for a GREAT PUBLIC TRANSPORT PROJECT.

No Wonder the Public Toilets Users Association is weak as Piss.

PTUA are a disgrace.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.
I don't get it. You travel on a train that already has right of way over road traffic through boom gates.

Then we are swapping two tracks for two tracks. For $1.6 billion Australian dollars.

The only thing that could possibly improve your train experience would be a signalling upgrade to make things run a little faster.

So why not just do the signalling upgrade ?

What is your vested interested in level crossing removals ?

Are you also a motorist stuck at boom gates, a cyclist beating through road traffic as well as a traveler on the Dandy line and the Frankston line and the Sandy line and the Waverly line?

Wotchyado?
S302 Spirit of Progress
You are wrong here, simple as that, the Metro mob have deliberately put fewer services on the Dandenong corridor so as to reduce the time the level crossing gates are closed. The CEO of metro rail (or whatever they are called this week) has stated repeatedly to improve services removing level crossings on the Dandenong line needs to be done "last year".

Advocating a position by telling things that are not true will not do your case any good at all. The anti north south pipe line people made this mistake also.

woodford
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I feel like S302 has run out of things yo say with his latest post, I would quote him but I can't appear to do so on Mobile. Anyways, why are you (S302) so against the skyrail, if you truely want to see an example of a decent rail over, have a look at Patterson and Glenferrie roads! Than have a look at the Burke road rail under. Gardiner really looks so depressing in a cutting. Or if you want a better example, head to Boronia and see how ugly and unsafe feeling that is. You could say that you're replacing two tracks with two tracks, but its something for tje better. If you really think that the sky rail is redundant, than why are you suggesting that a tunnel is somehow better?
A hat with a toucan 2:ele
You can understand why the people in this rail corridor are against it. Because they are doing something in the Pakenham Corridor that they would not dream of doing in the Frankston Corridor. It comes down to votes.

Michael
  historian Deputy Commissioner

You can understand why the people in this rail corridor are against it. Because they are doing something in the Pakenham Corridor that they would not dream of doing in the Frankston Corridor. It comes down to votes.
mejhammers1

Yes, you can understand why some in the corridor are against it - particularly those living right next to the line.

But you are seriously not paying attention if you believe it's about votes.

Daniel Bowen has written a blog piece on a hypothetical skyrail for the Ormond-McKinnon-Bentleigh grade separation (http://www.danielbowen.com/2016/03/09/bentleigh-skyrail/). In it he gives the history of the project and shows that the timing for a elevated line was wrong. The Liberals had funded and designed a trench at Ormond. The incoming Labor government simply extended this to the other two crossings; they were under the hammer to implement their ambitious election promise and this project could be got off the ground quickly. They set up an authority to implement the level crossing removal scheme which then came up with the game changing idea of elevated rail lines.

And, yes, they are dreaming of doing it in the Frankston corridor. Look at the options being considered, and hear the anti-Skyrail groups. Indeed, it is difficult to see how the separations around Carrum could anything else but elevated.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
And, yes, they are dreaming of doing it in the Frankston corridor. Look at the options being considered, and hear the anti-Skyrail groups. Indeed, it is difficult to see how the separations around Carrum could anything else but elevated.
historian
High water table, among other factors.
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

I'm disappointed to see all newspaper and nightly news bulletins providing more camera time to opponents and critics of logical, overall beneficial infrastructure projects. Why can't they focus on the positives rather than exaggerate the economic, visual, social and environmental impacts of the negatives which can be negated?
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
Wotchyezdo?
S302 Spirit of Progress
I apologise for being absent from the forum a bit, I was just observing the well rusted in bi-directional operate between Caulfield and Moorabbin to see if there were any disruptions, delays or accidents with this concept and there were none.

I then went to observe the Camberwell - Bokky Hill bi directional and also observed no disruptions, delays or accidents, so it seems the operators of our trains can cope with a bi -directional between Oakleigh and Caulfield without disruptions, delays or accidents.

I also got tired of this feeling that I was being constantly attacked by road warrior chichiuanas.

Then I remembered Ash in Aliens, you know, the robot that exploded into a milkshake after the crew beat him up after realizing he had brought the Alien on board purposefully, and he told them the crew were expendable. So probably dealing here with attack chichiuana Company Robots that see me and the Community as expendable.

I mean, how else could you defend a public transport - rail project, on a rail forum, where you spent $1.6 billion to replace two tracks with...um...er...two tracks, unless it was a Vicroads project?
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
I have a vested interested in level crossing removals.
You are wrong here, simple as that, the Metro mob have deliberately put fewer services on the Dandenong corridor so as to reduce the time the level crossing gates are closed.
woodford
Woodie, yagottabe pulling my leg ! Metro GET PAID by putting more services on. Why would you turn an empty train going into a layover into a revenue service that stops at two stations along the way, hypothetically. Unless you wanted to GET PAID for submitting an excel spreadsheet with more revenue runs to the State Govt, which is good for this kind of hocus pocus.

The day a private operator puts on LESS SERVICES to earn LESS MONEY against FIXED COSTS I will know I have truly arrived in Communist Heaven.

I actually believe in a different conspiracy theory : they actually have dropped the gates for longer in the run up to Skyrail to buy votes from the motoring public.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
I actually believe in a different conspiracy theory : they actually have dropped the gates for longer in the run up to Skyrail to buy votes from the motoring public.
S302 Spirit of Progress
If the gates are down longer than, say, a similar time last year for a similar amount of rail traffic, then I would more inclined to think that this is the result of measures implemented to guard against a repeat of January's incident, where a Vlocity failed to trigger the level crossing properly at Progress St in Dandenong, than a conspiracy to increase the vote from the public.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
I'm disappointed to see all newspaper and nightly news bulletins providing more camera time to opponents and critics of logical, overall beneficial infrastructure projects. Why can't they focus on the positives rather than exaggerate the economic, visual, social and environmental impacts of the negatives which can be negated?
slowcoach

Slowcoach.

This is what is called an 'own goal'. Most of us are commonsense people, concerned about the happiness of our families and recognizing that economic development and infrastructure progress are in the mix to support this.

So if somebody comes to you with a proposition, explains the pros and cons, then gives you some time to ask questions, be informed and benefit from a genuine conversation you may generally find that you may act against your own immediate, selfish interest for the greater good. You do not go onto the news to moan and groan. As a process, 'genuine engagement' does work, but takes a little time.

Sometimes genuine engagement has to be fought for, because Daleks run the show and when people wake up to this they create noise.

Here, in Skyrail by Daleks, you have a PR campaign, relying on BS 'consultation', half truths and concocted statistics as the 'wings of persuasion.' An absolute BS robocall survey is done which shows that 82% of my nieghbours are in support of Skyrail, which is BS, because we were all in the same hot tub together when the calls were made. Young man, this reminds me of General Westmoreland with his 'bodycount' PR campaign in Vietnam, and we know who ended up winning that one.

Melbourne is "the World's Most Liveable City" as a consequence of the process of genuine, messy,engagement playing out. Robert Risson, who ended up in Murrumbeena, a great suburb, was the irritant who stood up in the 50's and 60's in the fight to preserve trams, when every sensible person wanted them gone. As this is a rail forum, which covers trams, you might say that Melbourne's trams are an iconic and positive part of the Melbourne experience. Thank you Sir Robert. You might not remember Norm Gallagher, of the BLF, who suckled CFMEU babes on his breasts (he could), but the Green Bans preserved some aspects of the city's liveability which even his most morbid enemies might quietly thank him for today.

So don't be afraid of mess and noise, it will make you a better, wiser engineer. When you have gray hair you will learn that 'a stitch in time saves nine'. Be genuine. Most people just want to sit in a rocking chair. But they are not idiots. They trust you. They want to trust you. Don't abuse that, sonny, or miss.

Need more wimmin' in the game, more emotional intelligence.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
PTUA are a disgrace.
oz1235
On the basis of rolling on the back like a fluffy dog with the tongue hanging out and providing gushing endorsement for the replacement of two operating tracks with....ummmm.....two operating tracks I tend to concur with your sentiment.

Roadwarrior attack chichuianas, don't get me wrong ! As a motorist I believe that Skyrail is a very welcome initiative for LX removal, but not the only one.

As a Public Transport project it's just a salad bowl of crap.
The PTUA is as sharp as a golfball on this.

I am sick to death of cattle truck trains and I am just going to get more of this once the LXRA moves on.
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
I actually believe in a different conspiracy theory : they actually have dropped the gates for longer in the run up to Skyrail to buy votes from the motoring public.
If the gates are down longer than, say, a similar time last year for a similar amount of rail traffic, then I would more inclined to think that this is the result of measures implemented to guard against a repeat of January's incident, where a Vlocity failed to trigger the level crossing properly at Progress St in Dandenong, than a conspiracy to increase the vote from the public.
TheMeddlingMonk
I retract my statement in respect of conspiracy to uneccessarily aggravate the motoring public, your explanation is quite rational, though I note you travel in a Tardis. I certainly hope you have a valid Myki on that platform though!

If the Daleks were genuine then they could have issued a press release explaining this, because the traffic jams have increased. Motorists have been screaming through their windscreens and hopping out of cars to berate train drivers, not a smart thing to do at somebody with 200 tonnes at their fingertips.

I figure they could have done a simple press release with an innocent explanation, but Stavros said, "Nah, let's raise the heat."
  S302 Spirit of Progress Station Master

Location: Murrumbeena
On cost.
Where do you get this 40% extra from ?
Nightfire
Fair question. Working on it. Just have a wobbly card table and an IBM 286 so takes a little time. Don't have $2 million a month and 18 months to detail design and cost to give you an answer out of a gumball machine.

Did write to the LXRA asking them to consider cut&cover in the expectation that a genuine engagement with alternative solutions that did acknowledge the engineering (and visible political) constraints they were working with would maybe earn a genuine response, ie here is our excel on cut & cover, show us yours and let us together work out what's right.

Chirping crickets.

Not here to bust yer balls Ant.
Could actually detoxify if you open the door to Community.

This is either the worst project LXRA will ever do, or the best.
Takes grit to make a pearl Kev.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
On cost.
Where do you get this 40% extra from ?
Fair question. Working on it. Just have a wobbly card table and an IBM 286 so takes a little time. Don't have $2 million a month and 18 months to detail design and cost to give you an answer out of a gumball machine.

Did write to the LXRA asking them to consider cut&cover in the expectation that a genuine engagement with alternative solutions that did acknowledge the engineering (and visible political) constraints they were working with would maybe earn a genuine response, ie here is our excel on cut & cover, show us yours and let us together work out what's right.

Chirping crickets.

Not here to bust yer balls Ant.
Could actually detoxify if you open the door to Community.

This is either the worst project LXRA will ever do, or the best.
Takes grit to make a pearl Kev.
S302 Spirit of Progress
Getting dizzy reading this, more spin than the politicians pump out.

Just like the spin and miss Information found here !

"Sniped this from the noskyrail newsletter"

Engineering Myths Debunked



Don’t believe the spin! Below are two of the main arguments used to try and sell the skyrail as the only solution for removing the

level crossings...



1. The Longford gas pipe is in the way!



The Longford gas pipe is old and due for a full replacement in 2029. Why not do it now which will no doubt be cheaper than

doing it in 13 years time? It’s also located very, very close to several of the planned Skyrail concrete pylons and may prove a big


safety risk for workers and residents. The Andrews Government stated it would take 18 months to get approval to move this if



we knew the gas pipe had more political power than the premier himself we would have voted for the gas pipe!

"What utility company Is going to agree to cutting 11~13 years off the service life of one of their main assets ?

Where would a new pipe be moved to ? (someone on a radio Interview couldn't answer that)"


2. There is a high water table in the area!



This is pure spin! We have copies of bore logs from development plans near the rail line and there is no evidence of water issues.

One of the apartment developments closest to the rail corridor has a 2 level basement carpark of 6 metres below natural ground

level with no issues either. The Geology and Hydrogeology report from Meinhardt Infrastructure & Environment states that wet

soil conditions were only found more than 6 metres below ground. Finally, we all know Citylink runs under the Yarra River, which

last time we checked had a pretty high water table!

"A trench would need to be deeper than 6 metres, probably 8 to 9 metres below natural ground level

The Springvale trench has ground water problems, all adds to extra on going costs to the public/taxpayer"
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
I don't know how many of you frequent social media, but today I've had several messages from one Twitter user who is also trying to showcase the work of this noskyrail.net "team" as a credible alternative - which I don't believe it is.  One thing I've learned as these people are a bit hard of hearing, and they haven't done their homework, as evident from several posts here. I don't think any of them are actually railway engineers, their motives might seem credible but they have no idea how railway lines actually work. I'm not saying I'm an expert, but I've learned quite a bit from other people on this forum who do have knowledge of such things.  It worries me that they are selling themselves as a team of engineers, without saying what kind of engineers they actually are, some people are obviously sold by this claim.  

Anyway, I've asked this Twitter user to apply his trench scenario to Noble Park where the railway will have to cross Mile Creek. I've heard that there isn't enough distance between the nearby crossing at Noble Park for the line to achieve a correct grade to cross the creek so I'll be interested to hear of their "solution" to this. Can't believe I've seen some people so sold by the idea of a chequerboard trench covering as this lot.
  toastywarmhamster Station Master

Location: Space and Time
I apologise for being absent from the forum a bit, I was just observing the well rusted in bi-directional operate between Caulfield and Moorabbin to see if there were any disruptions, delays or accidents with this concept and there were none.

I then went to observe the Camberwell - Bokky Hill bi directional and also observed no disruptions, delays or accidents, so it seems the operators of our trains can cope with a bi -directional between Oakleigh and Caulfield without disruptions, delays or accidents.

I also got tired of this feeling that I was being constantly attacked by road warrior chichiuanas.

I mean, how else could you defend a public transport - rail project, on a rail forum, where you spent $1.6 billion to replace two tracks with...um...er...two tracks, unless it was a Vicroads project?
S302 Spirit of Progress

I deal with the detritus of your post one by one to make it simple for you...try and follow along or ask a reasonable person to explain it to you if it helps.

"I was just observing the well rusted in bi-directional operate between Caulfield and Moorabbin"

That is a neat trick seeing as the two lines Caulfield to Moorabbin have been dedicated up and down for about 5 or 6 months now with one being closed due to LX removal works.

"I then went to observe the Camberwell - Bokky Hill bi directional"

Yes the centre track is bi-directional, but with two other tracks as dedicated up and down lines...count with me 1,2,3...3 lines. Not just the one line you proposed.

"I also got tired of this feeling that I was being constantly attacked by road warrior chichiuanas."

You remind me of the saying - If you look around the table and can't see the sucker/fool...chances are its you.
  ossi2 Station Staff

1. The Longford gas pipe is in the way!

"What utility company Is going to agree to cutting 11~13 years off the service life of one of their main assets ?

Where would a new pipe be moved to ? (someone on a radio Interview couldn't answer that)"

Nightfire
The re-routing of gas transmission pipelines for major infrastructure projects is relatively common. Re-routing of similar nature to that needed near the Grange Road has been done before, including recently in Victoria. Cost and time taken for the actual physical work done is surprisingly small.

On the recent occasions in Victoria, the small section of pipeline affected by the proposed new infrastructure has been re-routed deeper.

The approval process is the slow part, with waiting for ministerial approval being painfully long.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The re-routing of gas transmission pipelines for major infrastructure projects is relatively common. Re-routing of similar nature to that needed near the Grange Road has been done before, including recently in Victoria. Cost and time taken for the actual physical work done is surprisingly small.

On the recent occasions in Victoria, the small section of pipeline affected by the proposed new infrastructure has been re-routed deeper.

The approval process is the slow part, with waiting for ministerial approval being painfully long.
ossi2
Well clearly they do not want to touch the pipe at all !, just build around It.
As It has been reported It's a 2 year job to move a pipe like this (the Government does not have 2 years of sitting on It's hands In It's schedule)

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