Sky rail for Pakenham Cranbourne line outlined

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 13 Jan 2016 16:51
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
That's the trouble with rail in Victoria. It does not take long for conversations to go off the rail.

My post about the stalemate of 4 rails is fairly simple. There is no room!

No amount of wishful thinking, or regurgitatiing old plans that have been done to death and discarded, can change that.

Any sugestion that goes anwhere near "just quad the track from X to Y" cannot get past the width of the existing corridor.

The problem remains getting freight, regional and metro from Dandenong to Caulfield as quickly as possible. Preferably express.

Focussed sugestions on that issue might find an answer that actually works,

cheers
John

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  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I would have been more than happy as a tax payer to have had the government compulsory acquire the neighboring properties (yes I know its very easy to say that when its not my house) at well above market rates to keep everyone as happy as possible and do the job properly from the start.

Why do you think that the State Government has a voluntary purchase scheme for adjacent property owners along the CTD/Skyrail viaducts?
LancedDendrite
Understand that LD, however the houses are still there and the track was rebuilt with the same two tracks, thus nothing has been gained in regards to travel times despite the countless interruptions to services and squillions of dollars spent.

My suggestion was to compulsory purchase the adjoining properties (which occurred for the RRL and the East west link IIRC), which IMO should have happened as soon as the project got signed off, to allow four tracks to be built from the beginning and have two double track viaducts, which by their design should require less space than 4 single track viaducts and cause less shadow.

Now, whenever the government of the day has the will, or everyone adjoining the line finally voluntarily sells up, we will need to spend squillions more than we should have if it was done properly in the first place (not to mention more bustitutions etc) by re-establishing the worksites and equipment and so. Hence my comment regarding paying well above current market rates as it should still be a lot cheaper to do that than building it all again in the future.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I would have been more than happy as a tax payer to have had the government compulsory acquire the neighboring properties (yes I know its very easy to say that when its not my house) at well above market rates to keep everyone as happy as possible and do the job properly from the start.

Why do you think that the State Government has a voluntary purchase scheme for adjacent property owners along the CTD/Skyrail viaducts?
Understand that LD, however the houses are still there and the track was rebuilt with the same two tracks, thus nothing has been gained in regards to travel times despite the countless interruptions to services and squillions of dollars spent.

My suggestion was to compulsory purchase the adjoining properties (which occurred for the RRL and the East west link IIRC), which IMO should have happened as soon as the project got signed off, to allow four tracks to be built from the beginning and have two double track viaducts, which by their design should require less space than 4 single track viaducts and cause less shadow.

Now, whenever the government of the day has the will, or everyone adjoining the line finally voluntarily sells up, we will need to spend squillions more than we should have if it was done properly in the first place (not to mention more bustitutions etc) by re-establishing the worksites and equipment and so. Hence my comment regarding paying well above current market rates as it should still be a lot cheaper to do that than building it all again in the future.
jakar
Again for everyone that doesn't understand, there was and Is no funding for extra tracks on the Dandenong line (replacing 2 tracks with 4 tracks was not a simple option like selecting orange paint over blue paint)

You can't just upsize a project without any extra funding !

The Government promised to remove level crossing (mostly for road / street users) railway tracks were replaced on a like for like basis !

The prospects of funding for extra tracks Is something like 10 years away, In the meantime, houses In the path of the proposed tracks will continue to be lived In, privately owned or publicly owned (leased out)
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Again for everyone that doesn't understand, there was and Is no funding for extra tracks on the Dandenong line (replacing 2 tracks with 4 tracks was not a simple option like selecting orange paint over blue paint)
Nightfire
My previous post was not worded the best. My point was meant to be that even if additional tracks were not laid down at the time, at least have the proper foundations and alignments in place in order for this to be done easily and at minimal cost in the future. I can't accept that with a 1.6 billion dollar project a relatively small amount more could not be found to future proof the corridor. As it is now, nothing has changed, and nothing ever will until probably another 1.6 billion becomes available. It is shortsightedness at its best!

As a side note, I was expecting the latest section to be pretty smooth, but the trains do tend to get a bit of a sway happening. The rail head also seems to be rather pitted already. I assume it is new track but I wouldn't be surprised if they've cut costs with that as well.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
I think they kept Platforms 2 and 3 as this favoured an easier track alignment (no need to introduce an S curve for the up track).

When I was there recently, the track was completely gone from the original platform 1. I didn't look closely, but I suspect there is no longer any ability to terminate at Oakleigh (which I am sure will come back to bite them). I also have the bad feeling that they'll make it impossible to easily re-use what was Platform 1.
If you look on the Vicsig website, you will see that there Is a trailing crossover each side of Oakeigh Station, so a turnback Is possible from both directions (probably even a locomotive hauled train turn back Is possible too)  
Nightfire
May I ask where on the VicSig site? I can't find any diagrams dated 2018.

I had a closer look when I was at Oakleigh recently. I could make out the pair of turnouts towards Hughesdale (on the city side of the pedestrian crossing at the end of Paddington Rd), but struggled to find the pair between Oakleigh and Huntingdale. I took a few photos and I suspect the pair between Oakleigh and Huntingdale is just visible if you zoom in.

Photos on Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g2fp51xaocq47lv/AADJA-GrcAcZTnGQJNP8l1a9a?dl=0
  historian Deputy Commissioner

I can't accept that with a 1.6 billion dollar project a relatively small amount more could not be found to future proof the corridor.
jakar

Courtesy of Google Maps, I just counted 58 properties immediately south of the line between Caulfield and Carnegie (this didn't include the commercial property on the west side of Koornang Rd). The going rate for a property in that area is $1 million to $1.5 million. There is a premium for compulsory acquisition. A ballpark figure for this stretch alone would be $60 to $90 million in land costs. Multiple that by 3 to 4 for the full length - $180 million to $360 million.

That's not a relatively small amount. And for land that is not needed now, and may never be needed.
  historian Deputy Commissioner

May I ask where on the VicSig site? I can't find any diagrams dated 2018.

I had a closer look when I was at Oakleigh recently. I could make out the pair of turnouts towards Hughesdale (on the city side of the pedestrian crossing at the end of Paddington Rd), but struggled to find the pair between Oakleigh and Huntingdale. I took a few photos and I suspect the pair between Oakleigh and Huntingdale is just visible if you zoom in.

Photos on Dropbox:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/g2fp51xaocq47lv/AADJA-GrcAcZTnGQJNP8l1a9a?dl=0
TheMeddlingMonk

The Down end crossover is on the Down side of the Hanover St overbridge, well away from the current platforms.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
I can't accept that with a 1.6 billion dollar project a relatively small amount more could not be found to future proof the corridor.

Courtesy of Google Maps, I just counted 58 properties immediately south of the line between Caulfield and Carnegie (this didn't include the commercial property on the west side of Koornang Rd). The going rate for a property in that area is $1 million to $1.5 million. There is a premium for compulsory acquisition. A ballpark figure for this stretch alone would be $60 to $90 million in land costs. Multiple that by 3 to 4 for the full length - $180 million to $360 million.

That's not a relatively small amount. And for land that is not needed now, and may never be needed.
historian
And this is why the prudent option is to have a voluntary purchase scheme and maybe after the election put down a compulsory acquisition overlay. That'll take longer but cost a bit less - which is why VicRoads does it all the time.
The sale of Scheme properties that are north of the railway corridor should offset some of the acquisition costs for the rest of the corridor expansion as well.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

May I ask where on the VicSig site? I can't find any diagrams dated 2018 ……………………
TheMeddlingMonk
No signal diagram as yet. Go to VicSig homepage and select “Pakenham Line Guide……including the Oakleigh changes” in Changes at VicSig.  Scroll down to Oakleigh station.

http://vicsig.net
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Thanks @historian and @kitchgp.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I can't accept that with a 1.6 billion dollar project a relatively small amount more could not be found to future proof the corridor.

Courtesy of Google Maps, I just counted 58 properties immediately south of the line between Caulfield and Carnegie (this didn't include the commercial property on the west side of Koornang Rd). The going rate for a property in that area is $1 million to $1.5 million. There is a premium for compulsory acquisition. A ballpark figure for this stretch alone would be $60 to $90 million in land costs. Multiple that by 3 to 4 for the full length - $180 million to $360 million.

That's not a relatively small amount. And for land that is not needed now, and may never be needed.
historian
Yep, although you might be able to put tracks over the road at Egan St and quickly purchase the back of the commercial properties on the nothern side of the traintracks before they are all developed into medium density housing. Most of that is carparking behind existing buildings, although the site directly east of Officeworks is getting an 11 story building which is currently under construction so the government would have to move quick to secure that land.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
I can't accept that with a 1.6 billion dollar project a relatively small amount more could not be found to future proof the corridor.

Courtesy of Google Maps, I just counted 58 properties immediately south of the line between Caulfield and Carnegie (this didn't include the commercial property on the west side of Koornang Rd). The going rate for a property in that area is $1 million to $1.5 million. There is a premium for compulsory acquisition. A ballpark figure for this stretch alone would be $60 to $90 million in land costs. Multiple that by 3 to 4 for the full length - $180 million to $360 million.

That's not a relatively small amount. And for land that is not needed now, and may never be needed.
historian
I'm wondering if it'd be cheaper to buy properties next to the former level crossings, lower the four roads, and build new tracks and stations at ground level.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

I'm wondering if it'd be cheaper to buy properties next to the former level crossings, lower the four roads, and build new tracks and stations at ground level.
Gauntlet
I wonder If that could be a possible solution for level crossing removal at Glenhuntly (regrade the road, Including rebuilding of the shops)
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm wondering if it'd be cheaper to buy properties next to the former level crossings, lower the four roads, and build new tracks and stations at ground level.
I wonder If that could be a possible solution for level crossing removal at Glenhuntly (regrade the road, Including rebuilding of the shops)
Nightfire

I don't think it would work too well at Glenhuntly, given the explanation for opposition to trenching the rail line there is the high water table due to the area being former swampland. Plus you have the tramline there to contend with.

Skyrail for Neerim Road and Glenhuntly road, plenty of room either side of the tracks to build it in the same style as the Springvale section of skyrail to the side of the existing line without disrupting services. There is plenty of room for the gradient on the curve after the caulfield junction for the trainline to rise up and a good 800m of space to come back to ground level south of Glenhuntly before the overpass at EE Gunn reserve and entering the trench to Ormond station. 900m of space if they move the station North of the road to the old council depot site and carpark.

Speaking of the CD9 level crossing removals- Grange Road, Carnegie is open to traffic again after two weeks of shutdown to regrade the road and remove the 'bump' of the old and trackbed. The road is now a good ~3ft lower than it was before, meaning a greater clearance for trucks given the elevated rail is already sloping down at that point and the surface is a smooth drive with the tracks gone. Roadmarkings were being painted tonight as I went through it.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As expected.

The stations are progressing well. Lots of ground level works around Carnegie and Murrumbeena (a bit further behind) with paving being laid down.

The 'trim' or guttering for the shell structure is almost being completed on the outside, looks much cleaner now



Koornang Road was dug up and resurfaced to remove the old rails and add in the new bus bays.

The wind breaks for seating on the platforms are getting old pictures of the areas applied to them, they look very nice.





  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
As expected.

The stations are progressing well. Lots of ground level works around Carnegie and Murrumbeena (a bit further behind) with paving being laid down.

The 'trim' or guttering for the shell structure is almost being completed on the outside, looks much cleaner now



Koornang Road was dug up and resurfaced to remove the old rails and add in the new bus bays.

The wind breaks for seating on the platforms are getting old pictures of the areas applied to them, they look very nice.





drunkill
I Presume the Carnegie and Murrumbeena Weatherboards were demolished for the new structure, Can anyone confirm?
  Lockie91 Train Controller

As expected.

The stations are progressing well. Lots of ground level works around Carnegie and Murrumbeena (a bit further behind) with paving being laid down.

The 'trim' or guttering for the shell structure is almost being completed on the outside, looks much cleaner now



Koornang Road was dug up and resurfaced to remove the old rails and add in the new bus bays.

The wind breaks for seating on the platforms are getting old pictures of the areas applied to them, they look very nice.





I Presume the Carnegie and Murrumbeena Weatherboards were demolished for the new structure, Can anyone confirm?
Dangersdan707
Unfortunately the station buildings at Carnegie and Murrumbenna were not heritage listed. LXRA say that they were in pretty poor condition and were not saved as a complete structure. However, "Key features" of the station buildings were preserved "Materials will include station entrances, canopy trusses and some furnishings such as benches and masonry" time will tell how these will be included in the new public forecourts.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Yep the buildings at both stations were demolished, they were rotten and falling apart.

The waiting room shacks at Clayton are getting rebuilt by apprentice carpenters at Holmsglen tafe and will sit along the linear park around there.

I believe the iron trusses from Carnegie and Murrumbeena were re-used to extend the platform shelters at Armadale and Toorak? stations as they were of the same design.

The brown and cream coloured trusses, for reference:

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