Southern Cross Station Subway Possible Reopening!

 
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/underground-access-to-southern-cross-platforms-may-return

My dad always used to tell me they were idiots when they closed it when the stagion was rebuilt... There now spending $750,000 to investigate if the gates can reopen?! $750,000 what a joke... How much wastage in money seriously

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  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I'm surprised nobody has fallen off those escalators.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
My dad always used to tell me they were idiots when they closed it when the stagion was rebuilt... There now spending $750,000 to investigate if the gates can reopen?! $750,000 what a joke... How much wastage in money seriously
mickamious

I am on record here as saying the decision to not include the subways as a safe and expedient method of accessing the platforms at Southern Cross was a major planning and design mistake.

The number of passengers spilling over the roads at Spencer Street is unsafe with a young woman last year falling onto the road and being killed.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The problem with re-opening the subway is that it would give passengers an alternative to by-pass the obstacle course of shops on the mezzanine level - like Melbourne Central the movement of passengers has become secondary to the renting of floor space to shops.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The problem with re-opening the subway is that it would give passengers an alternative to by-pass the obstacle course of shops on the mezzanine level - like Melbourne Central the movement of passengers has become secondary to the renting of floor space to shops.
don_dunstan

MTR now makes more money in Hong Kong through property management rather than running trains.  Did anyone this very morning hear the 1 hour interview with John Faine and the acting head of the PTV?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

The problem with re-opening the subway is that it would give passengers an alternative to by-pass the obstacle course of shops on the mezzanine level - like Melbourne Central the movement of passengers has become secondary to the renting of floor space to shops.

MTR now makes more money in Hong Kong through property management rather than running trains.  Did anyone this very morning hear the 1 hour interview with John Faine and the acting head of the PTV?
bevans
Would make sense for VLP passengers wishing to access paltforms  1 to 8 especially .  The  underground Southern pedestrian subway is still there, and there are ramps up to all the platforms (but now gated ) .  Subway presumably still exists under  Spencer St and  former  exits to  Frances St and base of Savoy Plaza Hotel,  Board of Works building could be re opened.  
$ 750,000  total cost to re open seems about right, but surely not  $ 750,000 just for another frigging report .  IIRC the former underground subway had a few shops and a bank plus the old Metro booking office which could all be let as retail  space, more carfee shops etc .  IIRC this subway continued to suburban platforms 9/10, 11/12, 13/14  with ramps there also under 15/16 to come up the other side of  Big Bird Drive to service Etihad Stadium .  As plats 15/16 are new there would be no ramps currently up to plats 15/16 .  Overall if it improves pedestrian access/ flow and safety then the underground subways should be re opened . Interestingly the proposal is initiated by City of Melbourne, when a pro active  V/Line, Metro  , Southern Cross station management should have been making better use of dormant assets anyway.  Again just typical of the deep malaise within the responsible transport bodies in Victoria .
  Madjikthise Assistant Commissioner

It would help if they improved the abysmal lighting so people could see where they were going in the first place.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

The problem with re-opening the subway is that it would give passengers an alternative to by-pass the obstacle course of shops on the mezzanine level - like Melbourne Central the movement of passengers has become secondary to the renting of floor space to shops.

MTR now makes more money in Hong Kong through property management rather than running trains.  Did anyone this very morning hear the 1 hour interview with John Faine and the acting head of the PTV?
bevans
Issue is Southern Cross Station is not owned nor run by MTR.
"The station is managed, as part of a public-private partnership with the state government, by Southern Cross Station Pty Ltd, a private consortium which includes ABN Amro, Leighton Contractors, Daryl Jackson Architecture, Nicholas Grimshaw and Partners and Honeywell"

As always in a PPP Agreement when something is built, the contractors etc have a stake (portion) of ownership of what is built.
Feel free to correct me?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Would this prevent the subway being reopened ?
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

Would this prevent the subway being reopened ?
freightgate
I think that's going to play a major part as that land is technically owned by the Consortium, however, i doubt they would go against the proposal as-long as there is safe guards in place for the public etc in my opinion.
The Subways are still in really good condition from my understanding but the entrance has been covered and would need to be reopened and a large amount of work to ensure it is safe to re-use would need to be undertaken eg Anti-Slip Installations, Upgrade Handrails etc
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The only safeguards anyone will insist on is MONEY......................$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Then they would , perhaps, be able to illuminate the half dark suburban platforms of the station.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
They showed a drawing of the proposal on the Channel 9 news this evening. It had a dedicated push-bike lane in the subway. Rolling Eyes

... and that's the point with anything to do with public transport infrastructure is this state, it seems they have a requirement for solid gold (not just gold plated) infrastructure or... nothing at all.

They could reopen it for a couple of hundred thousand, just a quick structural engineering report, unblocking the entrances, a few anti slip thingys on the steps and a coat of paint. We would get a badly needed subway quickly and affordably. As a bonus there would be money left over to do other worthwhile things.

But oh no. Victoria doesn't do things like that. In addition to the essential structural engineering report, they will commission a design company to come up with a garish design for the "brand new" subway at a consultancy fee of several million and extra costs of several million more to install the trendy design.
They will put in lifts for wheelchairs and push-bikes, despite the fact the lifts will hardly be used as it will be easier for people who have such equipment to continue crossing Spencer Street at ground level. Those unused lifts will cost a few squillion more.

No doubt they will come up with even more ways of making a potentially simple, quick and cheap subway restoration into a complex, expensive and time consuming monster. I suspect the consultants report will take years and come up with an astronomical total price, perhaps northward of $10 million for a project that if done simply could cost one hundredth of that.

So in several years time the state government will have a justifiable excuse to say that it's waaaay too expensive to be worth it. Or if they do decide to restore the subway, it will take years before it reopens and consume so much money that other projects will need to be cut back.

That's the way we do infrastructure in Victoria. Crying or Very sad  * rant ends *
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Ah not worry worry yourself.  It will be years away.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
My dad always used to tell me they were idiots when they closed it when the stagion was rebuilt... There now spending $750,000 to investigate if the gates can reopen?! $750,000 what a joke... How much wastage in money seriously

I am on record here as saying the decision to not include the subways as a safe and expedient method of accessing the platforms at Southern Cross was a major planning and design mistake.

The number of passengers spilling over the roads at Spencer Street is unsafe with a young woman last year falling onto the road and being killed.
bevans
The subway were not open to the public because the ramps are too steep and do not comply with  the DDA ( Disability Discrimination Act ).
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

They showed a drawing of the proposal on the Channel 9 news this evening. It had a dedicated push-bike lane in the subway. Rolling Eyes

... and that's the point with anything to do with public transport infrastructure is this state, it seems they have a requirement for solid gold (not just gold plated) infrastructure or... nothing at all.

They could reopen it for a couple of hundred thousand, just a quick structural engineering report, unblocking the entrances, a few anti slip thingys on the steps and a coat of paint. We would get a badly needed subway quickly and affordably. As a bonus there would be money left over to do other worthwhile things.

But oh no. Victoria doesn't do things like that. In addition to the essential structural engineering report, they will commission a design company to come up with a garish design for the "brand new" subway at a consultancy fee of several million and extra costs of several million more to install the trendy design.
They will put in lifts for wheelchairs and push-bikes, despite the fact the lifts will hardly be used as it will be easier for people who have such equipment to continue crossing Spencer Street at ground level. Those unused lifts will cost a few squillion more.

No doubt they will come up with even more ways of making a potentially simple, quick and cheap subway restoration into a complex, expensive and time consuming monster. I suspect the consultants report will take years and come up with an astronomical total price, perhaps northward of $10 million for a project that if done simply could cost one hundredth of that.

So in several years time the state government will have a justifiable excuse to say that it's waaaay too expensive to be worth it. Or if they do decide to restore the subway, it will take years before it reopens and consume so much money that other projects will need to be cut back.

That's the way we do infrastructure in Victoria. Crying or Very sad  * rant ends *
Bogong

LOL I like the way you speak mate..
You've either worked in construction and done work for the the government and private sector or you just understand how people waste money.. Could not have said this better myself...
They will spend squillions going to be a HUGE designing company and the engineers will do there nuts over-engineering everything to cover their smeg and this is where the $$$$ always is.. Someone is going to make an absolute fortune re-constructing this to make it 'safe' again..
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
They showed a drawing of the proposal on the Channel 9 news this evening. It had a dedicated push-bike lane in the subway. Rolling Eyes

... and that's the point with anything to do with public transport infrastructure is this state, it seems they have a requirement for solid gold (not just gold plated) infrastructure or... nothing at all.

They could reopen it for a couple of hundred thousand, just a quick structural engineering report, unblocking the entrances, a few anti slip thingys on the steps and a coat of paint. We would get a badly needed subway quickly and affordably. As a bonus there would be money left over to do other worthwhile things.

But oh no. Victoria doesn't do things like that. In addition to the essential structural engineering report, they will commission a design company to come up with a garish design for the "brand new" subway at a consultancy fee of several million and extra costs of several million more to install the trendy design.
They will put in lifts for wheelchairs and push-bikes, despite the fact the lifts will hardly be used as it will be easier for people who have such equipment to continue crossing Spencer Street at ground level. Those unused lifts will cost a few squillion more.

No doubt they will come up with even more ways of making a potentially simple, quick and cheap subway restoration into a complex, expensive and time consuming monster. I suspect the consultants report will take years and come up with an astronomical total price, perhaps northward of $10 million for a project that if done simply could cost one hundredth of that.

So in several years time the state government will have a justifiable excuse to say that it's waaaay too expensive to be worth it. Or if they do decide to restore the subway, it will take years before it reopens and consume so much money that other projects will need to be cut back.

That's the way we do infrastructure in Victoria. Crying or Very sad  * rant ends *

LOL I like the way you speak mate..
You've either worked in construction and done work for the the government and private sector or you just understand how people waste money.. Could not have said this better myself...
They will spend squillions going to be a HUGE designing company and the engineers will do there nuts over-engineering everything to cover their smeg and this is where the $$$$ always is.. Someone is going to make an absolute fortune re-constructing this to make it 'safe' again..
mickamious
Could not agree more. They will be searching at this very moment for reasons not to reopen the subway and consultants to say so.
A quick survey and clean and reopen the subway on a trial basis, serving whatever platforms to which it is connected, and see what happens.
Unless, of course, they have already sold the accesses to their mates.
There will be some spurious excuses like no MYKI barriers for instance.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

One has to provide disabled access to all platforms, but not via  every entrance .    So the old subway could be opened for general public access .

If it had been left open as   part  of the 2006  re build then no one would be saying a damn thing .
  Donald Deputy Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
It will be soon discovered that the old subway will be 211 mm too narrow & 423 mm too low for today's exacting standards!!!!

This will require a complete re-engineering of the entire subway.   But money is no problem here in Victoria!!!!
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
It will be soon discovered that the old subway will be 211 mm too narrow & 423 mm too low for today's exacting standards!!!!

This will require a complete re-engineering of the entire subway.   But money is no problem here in Victoria!!!!
Donald
And when they do widen it, it will be done such that the widening work is 210mm and 422mm extra, creating a future problem for things that need to pass through the corridors causing excess wear.....
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A woodford opinion piece, you have been warned........................


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, it appears to have escaped nearly everybodys attention that there is a reason behind this push to open the subway an that is the death of pedestrian on the 16th of Febuary 2015. The intersection of Collins and Spencer is stated to have a very bad reputation for road safety. It appears Melbourne City council have been calling for something to be done for quite a while. either open the subway or build a new pedestrian bridge I presume with ramps and lifts. Either way Something now must be done. It appears the Southern Cross managment are at last taking this seriuosly.

A new pedestrain bridge would cost a small fortune and very likely be a real eye sore, the cheapest and safest option may be to spend some millions of dollars on the underpass to bring it up to scratch.

Either way Something has to be done, the time has long gone when society can allow people to be killed in order so someone can save a few dollars.

I must admit I am disappointed that some of the posters prejudicies caused them to over look this obvious explanation. The death of this young lady clearly has caused a lot of grief as it happened in peak hour in front of many people, including most of her fellow workers.

It is sad that in this world someone has to die before anyone will consdier an upgrade in safety.

woodford
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
It is sad that in this world someone has to die before anyone will consider an upgrade in safety.
woodford
Sometimes that is what it takes to remind people/business/government that death is a reality and actually does happen....
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I thought there were large water collecting bladders in the old subway to collect the voluminous run-off from the wave roof.

This water was intended to be used for the carriage wash....apparently I was wrong.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/09/29/1159337341330.html?page=fullpage

Mike.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
One has to provide disabled access to all platforms, but not via  every entrance .    So the old subway could be opened for general public access .

If it had been left open as   part  of the 2006  re build then no one would be saying a damn thing .
kuldalai
Oh how true.
Sad but true.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
I thought there were large water collecting bladders in the old subway to collect the voluminous run-off from the wave roof.

This water was intended to be used for the carriage wash....apparently I was wrong.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2006/09/29/1159337341330.html?page=fullpage

Mike.
The Vinelander
From the Age article:

'RAINWATER runs off the vast wavy roof of Melbourne's new Southern Cross Station and into the Yarra River at a rate that would fill 360 swimming pools, or 72 million drinking glasses, a year.'

An Olympic Swimming Pool holds 2,500,000 litres so that 360 pools would hold 900,000,000 litres, by my arithmetic.

On the Age's calculation of 72,000,000 drinking glasses that equates 12.5 litres per glass by my arithmetic.

Where have I gone wrong????   (Arithmetic was never my strongest subject.)

Yet another instance of dumbing down in Victoria where so many are, apparently, insufficiently intelligent to measure things:

  • In litres rather than swimming pools
  • Areas in other than MCGs
  • The weight of trams in other than rhinoceroses
  • Who knows what in Jumbo Jets

It is just plain stupidity and pig ignorance and the Age still got the wrong answer.
Perhaps we should just stick to those old fashioned units of measurement like litres, kilometres, kilograms and not try to be so bloody smart.
A 'carriage wash' - I didn't know we had one judging by the appearance of Vline's rolling stock over many years.
  michaelgreenhill Administrator That's Numberwang!

Location: Melbourne
I think some of you need to take a breath. The amount of vitriol here is astonishing.

"I told them so" and "it'll never happen" does nothing to help the situation, ever.

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