High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  steve195 Train Controller

great Made In China, hope the use plenty of valcrove and sticky tape
trainbrain
Huh Question

The last two train types we've bought from reputable European manufacturers haven't exactly been fantastic. As long as the contract is air tight, I don't really see the problem with buying from China. How much worse can they be? Cool



With regards to the design:
..the electric multiple-units will be based on CRRC’s Type A design.
Railway Gazette
There is surprisingly little information out there, but maybe someone can find some examples of this train type.

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  doyle Junior Train Controller

Asbestos
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The idea behind air-conditioning is that the air inside the carriage needs to be refrigerated and maybe even dehumidified just to keep the passengers cool. Maybe on an overloaded train, but how many passengers will these new trains carry? Hopefully less per square metre than the dreadful Sydney metro (not their suburban)? Their Northwest rail link will have trains, which even if air-conditioned, will be less comfortable than were the trains their had 80 years ago, most certainly without air-conditioning.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

great Made In China, hope the use plenty of valcrove and sticky tape
Huh Question

The last two train types we've bought from reputable European manufacturers haven't exactly been fantastic. As long as the contract is air tight, I don't really see the problem with buying from China. How much worse can they be? Cool



With regards to the design:
..the electric multiple-units will be based on CRRC’s Type A design.
There is surprisingly little information out there, but maybe someone can find some examples of this train type.
steve195
The last two train types we've bought from reputable European manufacturers haven't exactly been fantastic. As long as the contract is air tight, I don't really see the problem with buying from China. How much worse can they be?

That's because we cheapskates in Victoria, first of all bought the cheapest baseline product and then insisted on cheap compromises to keep the costs down, i.e. coil springs instead of air for suspension.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Capacity to be driver-less? I'm sure it's being thought-of.
A woodford opinion, you have been warned,

One can only have driverless rolling stock if the network can have absolutely NO obstructions AT ALL. This means no level crossings and passengers NOT obstructing the train in any way, like for instance holding the doors open.

The problem with such automation is it cannot handle any issue that its not designed to handle. The commercial aviation industry is now learning this the VERY hard way, with accidents due to such problems with automation seriously on the rise.

woodford
Really? I took a few rides on DLR a couple of months ago and the trains seemed to work just fine without drivers or any other staff. Not bad considering it was built 30 years ago before todays improved technology was available.
Bogong
Bogong, the DLR is a completely different rail Operation to the Melbourne Network. For a start, the LR is completely Grade separated, also it is self contained whilst the Melbourne Network is on many lines a mixture of freight and heavy passenger rail services. What runs on the DLR is glorified high level trams. Totally unlike the heavy rail stock of Melbourne.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

The evolution consortium (Downer EDI, Changchun, Plenary..) have won the contract to build the 65 sets. 60% local content. First train to begin testing just in time for the state election in November 2018, with the order complete by the time metro opens in 2026.
Government propaganda video


https://youtu.be/imwSqb4wpQE


Nine 6 car X-traps are also being ordered to keep Alstom Ballarat ticking over for a few more years.
Comparing the new trains to x-traps which don't run on the lines the new trains will run on.
Shrinking the x-trap carriages in the comparison footage to about the size of buses to make the new trains look bigger than they will actually be.
The new trains look like the bastard child of an x-trap and vlocity.
Sure is propaganda.
Madjikthise
What I do not understand though is why the Government has gone for the same Consortium that needed a further injection of some $175 Million in cash from the NSW Government to save the Waratah Trains project from imploding.

Michael
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
great Made In China, hope the use plenty of valcrove and sticky tape
Huh Question

The last two train types we've bought from reputable European manufacturers haven't exactly been fantastic. As long as the contract is air tight, I don't really see the problem with buying from China. How much worse can they be? Cool



With regards to the design:
..the electric multiple-units will be based on CRRC’s Type A design.
There is surprisingly little information out there, but maybe someone can find some examples of this train type.
The last two train types we've bought from reputable European manufacturers haven't exactly been fantastic. As long as the contract is air tight, I don't really see the problem with buying from China. How much worse can they be?

That's because we cheapskates in Victoria, first of all bought the cheapest baseline product and then insisted on cheap compromises to keep the costs down, i.e. coil springs instead of air for suspension.

Michael
mejhammers1
This. The iPhone is made in China, there's no problem with quality from China it just depends how much you want to spend and how close an eye you keep on QC...

Surely they'll just be bodyshells out of China anyway.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48

With regards to the design:
..the electric multiple-units will be based on CRRC’s Type A design.
There is surprisingly little information out there, but maybe someone can find some examples of this train type.
steve195
According to their website, the closest thing to the artist's impression is this for Rio de Janeiro metro:



Funnily enough, they supplemented / supplanted these Carioca Comengs:


Funny how things work out.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

A couple random points for the discussion.....................

In order for power to be fed back to the network the substations supplying the network need to be capable of doing that, while the technology is well known, even electric push bikes and disability scooters having regenerative braking, As far as I am aware the substations around Melbournes network cannot do this.

Second point China is capable of excellent engineering, the problem is western society continues going for the absolute cheapest price around and China like a lot of manufacturers have no problems of suppling real cheap rubbish if that is what you want to pay for. If you wish for a good product they WILL make it for you no problems!

Why am I bothering to still post in these forums.................. Sad.
woodford
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Even if the substations in Melbourne aren't capable to regenerative braking.  Also, I know that feeding electricity back into the network is far harder when using DC power, but are new substations capable of it?  Are the current trains capable of it. (they would simply feed anything else along the same section )
  Citadisboi Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
Even if the substations in Melbourne aren't capable to regenerative braking.  Also, I know that feeding electricity back into the network is far harder when using DC power, but are new substations capable of it?  Are the current trains capable of it. (they would simply feed anything else along the same section )
tazzer96
Was wondering if anyone else had picked up on this but buried in the Melbourne Metro documents is a line about upgrading the overhead to 25kV...

http://metrotunnel.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/40480/MM-Business-Case-Feb-2016-APPENDIX-03.PDF

Couple of references there including:

Frankston Line: Conversion of existing rolling stock to dual voltage capability to run on Sunshine - Dandenong Line to gain access to Westall train maintenance facility
  aliew94 Beginner

Location: Tōhoku Shinkansen
I think it’s a good design, except for the front nose cover--looks a bit funny.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

It would be great if the new trains had batteries that store the energy from regenerative braking.  This would then be used in acceleration after each station. A clear benefit would be a less peaky electrical demand, with a reduced need to upgrade substations to cope with a change from 6-car to 9-car trains. This would also enable more rapid acceleration. If Melbourne emulated the acceleration and dwell times of Perth's Fremantle line, there would be a 20% reduction in travel times over those currently on the Pakenham line, which would mean less delay to Vline services, and a marginally smaller train fleet to cover the same service level.
You don't need batteries for regenerative braking on electric trains, they can just feed the power back to the traction substation. Well established practice.
LancedDendrite
Apparently one of the reasons that Melbourne's newer trains have their regenerative braking capability not implemented is because the DC sub-stations can't send the power back to the grid. Any regenerative power can only be used for air conditioning within the same train, or by another train within the same sector.  It should be feasible to add inverters to each sub-station, but this could be quite expensive and return a relatively small amount of power back to the grid.  A small amount of battery storage should be sufficient to store energy from the regenerative braking before each station, and utilise it when starting.

However other posts of Railpage suggest an even better idea is being considered within ptv of converting the electrical system to 25kV AC. With our current 1500 V DC system, each station needs its own substation with sufficient capacity to simultaneously power two 6-car trains starting from stationary. An upgrade to 9-car trains with DC would require that each of these substations have their capacity increased by a further 50%. It would be clearly cheaper to upgrade the entire line to 25kV AC, which would then allow regenerative braking without the expense of inverters.
  steve195 Train Controller

Continuing on from the discussion in this thread, it was announced today that $660 million will be spent over the next two years upgrading the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines.  

This is very curious, given that myself and other posters had been informed that the power and signalling upgrades were being undertaken as part of the skyrail project. The government is either re-announcing the same funding, or this is an entirely new project. Can anyone shed light on this?

According to the press release 13 stations will have their platforms lengthened to accomodate the new HCMTs, in addition to the 5 stations being rebuilt as part of skyrail. Unfortunately it does not say how long the platforms will be nor which 13 stations are getting the upgrade. The only clue as to length is that the new trains will be "20% longer" than current ones.

By my maths, that would put the new trains at just under 170m in length, which would be too long for pretty much every existing platform. Given that not all station platforms are going to be lengthened, I conclude that the 20% longer figure must include the intermediate cabs. Thus the HCMTs will be about 160m long.

This is really just a short term upgrade then, since Melbourne Metro will be built with 220m platforms.


The other interesting announcement is that "a section of track in South Dandenong will be duplicated." It doesn't say anything about an extra platform at Dandenong, so I'd guess that the existing Bombarder siding will be upgraded to duplicate the Cranbourne line as far as the stormwater drain between Greens road and Abbotts road.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Continuing on from the discussion in this thread, it was announced today that $660 million will be spent over the next two years upgrading the Pakenham and Cranbourne lines.  

This is very curious, given that myself and other posters had been informed that the power and signalling upgrades were being undertaken as part of the skyrail project. The government is either re-announcing the same funding, or this is an entirely new project. Can anyone shed light on this?

According to the press release 13 stations will have their platforms lengthened to accomodate the new HCMTs, in addition to the 5 stations being rebuilt as part of skyrail. Unfortunately it does not say how long the platforms will be nor which 13 stations are getting the upgrade. The only clue as to length is that the new trains will be "20% longer" than current ones.

By my maths, that would put the new trains at just under 170m in length, which would be too long for pretty much every existing platform. Given that not all station platforms are going to be lengthened, I conclude that the 20% longer figure must include the intermediate cabs. Thus the HCMTs will be about 160m long.

This is really just a short term upgrade then, since Melbourne Metro will be built with 220m platforms.


The other interesting announcement is that "a section of track in South Dandenong will be duplicated." It doesn't say anything about an extra platform at Dandenong, so I'd guess that the existing Bombarder siding will be upgraded to duplicate the Cranbourne line as far as the stormwater drain between Greens road and Abbotts road.
steve195
I found the new article that shows exactly which 13 stations are getting platform extensions on a map
They are as follows: South Yarra, Huntingdale, Caulfeild, Oakleigh, Westall, Springvale, Dandenong, Hallam, Berwick, Officer, Pakenham, Merinda Park and Cranbourne
The link is here: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/longer-platforms-to-be-built-for-new-highcapacity-trains-20170216-gueeco.html
Note; the map on the news article shows Malvern not Huntingdale since I think the news article made a mistake there since the trains don't run there but express between Caulfeild and South Yarra.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
What about Richmond?  Is it already long enough or do passengers have to change at South Yarra
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
I have just heard on Channel 7 Andrews announcing the HCMT project at Hawksburn Station which isn't on the list of stations to be extended.  How cynical is that?
  steve195 Train Controller

What about Richmond?  Is it already long enough or do passengers have to change at South Yarra
Boss
Long enough.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I assume most of the funding was already included in the level crossing removal budget, given that foundations for the new wires have already been drilled and poured along the line.

I assume most of this $660m funding is for the new train yard outside Pakenham, possibly the signalling systems included.
  steve195 Train Controller

I found the new article that shows exactly which 13 stations are getting platform extensions on a map
They are as follows: South Yarra, Huntingdale, Caulfeild, Oakleigh, Westall, Springvale, Dandenong, Hallam, Berwick, Officer, Pakenham, Merinda Park and Cranbourne
The link is here: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/longer-platforms-to-be-built-for-new-highcapacity-trains-20170216-gueeco.html
Note; the map on the news article shows Malvern not Huntingdale since I think the news article made a mistake there since the trains don't run there but express between Caulfeild and South Yarra.
James974
Springvale is too short? Are you kidding me? They just rebuilt it three years ago for $159 million!

Pakenham / Cranbourne trains stop at the MATH stations late at night.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
These new trains, did they think of specifying coupler compatibility with at least one other existing trains, I'd suggest the Xtraps.  

Regards,
David Head
  calt Chief Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
These new trains, did they think of specifying coupler compatibility with at least one other existing trains, I'd suggest the Xtraps.  

Regards,
David Head
dthead

Coupler height generally is around the same range- types of connectors doesn't matter as there are transition couplers available.

Electrical compatibility is also of a non issue as the HCMTs are going to be longer than existing sets- theyre not going to be run in multiples with existing sets.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line
What about Richmond?  Is it already long enough or do passengers have to change at South Yarra
Long enough.
steve195
How long is it?
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
How about provision for 12 car trains?
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
How about provision for 12 car trains?
Myrtone
Not happening, as far as I'm aware. My understanding is that they are planning to build up to 10 car sets eventually.

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