High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Sydney trains are 10' 6" wide, which allows for 3+2 seating.

Country trains, IIRC, are 9' 6" wide, which only allows for 2+2 seating.
If you look at the original seating configurations of Comeng's, Hitachi's & X'traps I reckon you'll find they all had 3 + 2 seating originally in the centre of the cars. Seating has been reduced, relatively recently, to increase standing room to allow more people on under crush load conditions.

Neil
ngarner
Like everything else in Melbourne, amenity has been ruined to make way for more people...

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  route14 Chief Commissioner

Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
route14
And standing for an hour is your reward for living in the World's Most Live-able City...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Sydney trains are 10' 6" wide, which allows for 3+2 seating.

Country trains, IIRC, are 9' 6" wide, which only allows for 2+2 seating.
If you look at the original seating configurations of Comeng's, Hitachi's & X'traps I reckon you'll find they all had 3 + 2 seating originally in the centre of the cars. Seating has been reduced, relatively recently, to increase standing room to allow more people on under crush load conditions.

Neil
Like everything else in Melbourne, amenity has been ruined to make way for more people...
don_dunstan

It's something sleepy Adelaide will never have to be concerned about.

M.
  TheMeddlingMonk Deputy Commissioner

Location: The Time Vortex near Melbourne, Australia
Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
And standing for an hour is your reward for living in the World's Most Live-able City...
don_dunstan
You're a bit behind the times, Don, didn't you know Melbourne lost that title last year?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Sydney trains are 10' 6" wide, which allows for 3+2 seating.

Country trains, IIRC, are 9' 6" wide, which only allows for 2+2 seating.
If you look at the original seating configurations of Comeng's, Hitachi's & X'traps I reckon you'll find they all had 3 + 2 seating originally in the centre of the cars. Seating has been reduced, relatively recently, to increase standing room to allow more people on under crush load conditions.

Neil
Like everything else in Melbourne, amenity has been ruined to make way for more people...
It's something sleepy Adelaide will never have to be concerned about.

M.
The Vinelander
Thank God.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
And standing for an hour is your reward for living in the World's Most Live-able City...
You're a bit behind the times, Don, didn't you know Melbourne lost that title last year?
TheMeddlingMonk
I'm not surprised, driving anywhere around the inner city used to almost bring me to tears it was that frustrating.
  Tii Beginner

There's a lot of testing time scheduled for the rest of July on the HCMT. Is this the final push to get them officially on the rails ?
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
And standing for an hour is your reward for living in the World's Most Live-able City...
You're a bit behind the times, Don, didn't you know Melbourne lost that title last year?
I'm not surprised, driving anywhere around the inner city used to almost bring me to tears it was that frustrating.
don_dunstan
Are you driving the city or standing from the suburbs? make up your mind.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

There's a lot of testing time scheduled for the rest of July on the HCMT. Is this the final push to get them officially on the rails ?
Tii
How do you know they have increased testing?

The sets that are in stage four are required to mix with regular traffic, testing can be done during the day and does not require and occo. These are the closet the being accredited.
  JMarto15 Locomotive Fireman

What stage is the first HCMT at?
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
What stage is the first HCMT at?
JMarto15
Have a look at the comments about it two pages back...
It's not going anywhere fast, as discussed back there.

Neil
  Tii Beginner

There's a lot of testing time scheduled for the rest of July on the HCMT. Is this the final push to get them officially on the rails ?
How do you know they have increased testing?

The sets that are in stage four are required to mix with regular traffic, testing can be done during the day and does not require and occo. These are the closet the being accredited.
Lockie91
It's my perception that a lot of evening services are being replaced by buses according to the PTV site for testing. Now I see the whole of August is set up the same.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Removing seats is the most passive way to increase capacity.
And standing for an hour is your reward for living in the World's Most Live-able City...
You're a bit behind the times, Don, didn't you know Melbourne lost that title last year?
I'm not surprised, driving anywhere around the inner city used to almost bring me to tears it was that frustrating.
Are you driving the city or standing from the suburbs? make up your mind.
lkernan
I did both with monotonous regularity when I lived there - fought peak hour traffic that seemed to stretch into the weekends and tried to squeeze onto trains that could only be described as a frotter's delight.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Apparently a HCMT ran to Flinders under it's own power. Anyone have any photos/videos?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Apparently a HCMT ran to Flinders under it's own power. Anyone have any photos/videos?
John.Z
They've been running under their own power for a while, the question is did it do it while other trains were in service, or on a line to itself?
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Apparently a HCMT ran to Flinders under it's own power. Anyone have any photos/videos?
John.Z
I know it went as far as Caulfield under power last Thursday. Set 03.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
According to the DoT website "Several new trains have already completed over 20,000 kilometres of testing across the network and a range of environments, including the network’s steepest sections of track."
HCMT & scroll down to the HCMT section

If that is the case, assuming at least one has done that with the minimum number of faults, it would appear that all that is needed now is accreditation to run with passengers.

Neil
  JMarto15 Locomotive Fireman

Will the HCMTs be able to use the platform at Flinders Street that the Pakenham trains use or is it too short?
  slowcoach Junior Train Controller

Will the HCMTs be able to use the platform at Flinders Street that the Pakenham trains use or is it too short?
JMarto15
They may need to upgrade platforms 6 and 7 with DDA-compliant standards.
  Op Kronos Station Master

Will the HCMTs be able to use the platform at Flinders Street that the Pakenham trains use or is it too short?
They may need to upgrade platforms 6 and 7 with DDA-compliant standards.
slowcoach
On the Melbourne Trains Reddit thread(https://www.reddit.com/r/MelbourneTrains/), there are 2 pictures of set 3 at Flinders Street platform 6. Lengthwise, it looks like it fits fine; although only one cab end is shown which had a small amount hanging off the edge (which is almost negligible to be of concern, not sure of other end though).
Regarding DDA compliance: there is currently no gap filler near the train doors to indicate what the gaps between the train and the platform at the doors is like due to wires used to link sensors to computers/data collectors used for testing feeding through.  I therefore cannot judge based on the image alone, someone else might be able to examine the images and make a judgement.
Based on images of the mock-up one and a half carriage (see:https://www.ptua.org.au/2017/10/06/inside-melb-new-trains/), there is meant to be some sort of gap filler along with potentially a ramp of sorts.

In other news, set 4 was transferred back to Pakenham East from Newport last Saturday afternoon (8th of August) while set 2 was transferred back from Newport to Pakenham East on the 23rd of July, set 17 was transferred to Pakenham East on the 13th of July and set 18 was transferred on the 21st of July.

Edit: it seems like sets 2 and 4 are repeatedly getting moved between Pakenham East (for maintenance or repair? +more testing on the Pakenham line?) and Newport (for testing on the Werribee Line).
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
Comments on the thread linked suggest that as the HCMT has its own Cameras for checking doors, the cab can sit forward of the on platform monitors than the other trains at Flinders St as the driver can check things are clear using their own monitor. Don't know how much more space that gives them before signal sighting or door overhang becomes an issue.
  Op Kronos Station Master

Comments on the thread linked suggest that as the HCMT has its own Cameras for checking doors, the cab can sit forward of the on platform monitors than the other trains at Flinders St as the driver can check things are clear using their own monitor. Don't know how much more space that gives them before signal sighting or door overhang becomes an issue.
TOQ-1
I heard that the cameras are just being used to replace the driver's mirrors . There will be two per carriage on both sides.
I am not sure if the driver still has to relay on the platform monitors, though due to safety reasons in case the train's camera system are faulty, I guess the driver will still have to check the platform monitors. As replacement for the mirrors, they will also see use on stations where there are no platform monitors installed.

Regarding signal sighting and door overhanging issues:
  • Platform 9 is 204m long with the length that is "usable" (i.e. maximum length a train can fit within without overhanging the signal at each end)) being around 150.4m with platforms 6 and 7 being similar (I think), so I assume the signals at the down end of platforms 6 and 7 may need to be moved further in the down direction as the HCMT (7 carriages) is 160m long and there is space in the down direction.
  • Door overhang is likely to not be an issue but this factor is dependent on how the train sits along the platform with the current signal positioning (i.e. if the train fits within the signals between in the up and down directions then it is not an issue).

Please note:
  1. My source for my deduction is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi3hKHZ35rrAhWCQs0KHVVUCrIQFjAZegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftransport.vic.gov.au%2F-%2Fmedia%2Ftfv-documents%2Fchief-investigator%2F2011-11-30-signal-passed-at-danger-vline-passenger-train-8415-flinders-st-station.pdf%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3DEC79AA54D56621785C2C3BAAA9D39A16&usg=AOvVaw1BungAsVLMnErWxjrxmyQd which talked about a SPAD was committed by a Vlocity leaving platform 9 with the distances mentioned also apply to platform 7 since I assume they are roughly of the same length (which should also roughly be true for platform 6).
  2. I do not know if signal sighting is still an issue, if it has been resolved or it never was an issue to begin with.
  3. An example of signal repositioning was done at Richmond sometime last year with two new signal gantries on the upside of platform 6 and the downside of platform 5 that were slightly further away from the platform than original gantry. (Other stations such as Caulfield where platform extensions required the movement of signals are different; I am using Richmond as an example of stations where no platform extension was needed, only the signals required moving).


Hope this makes sense.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Comments on the thread linked suggest that as the HCMT has its own Cameras for checking doors, the cab can sit forward of the on platform monitors than the other trains at Flinders St as the driver can check things are clear using their own monitor. Don't know how much more space that gives them before signal sighting or door overhang becomes an issue.
I heard that the cameras are just being used to replace the driver's mirrors . There will be two per carriage on both sides.
I am not sure if the driver still has to relay on the platform monitors, though due to safety reasons in case the train's camera system are faulty, I guess the driver will still have to check the platform monitors. As replacement for the mirrors, they will also see use on stations where there are no platform monitors installed.

Regarding signal sighting and door overhanging issues:
  • Platform 9 is 204m long with the length that is "usable" (i.e. maximum length a train can fit within without overhanging the signal at each end)) being around 150.4m with platforms 6 and 7 being similar (I think), so I assume the signals at the down end of platforms 6 and 7 may need to be moved further in the down direction as the HCMT (7 carriages) is 160m long and there is space in the down direction.
  • Door overhang is likely to not be an issue but this factor is dependent on how the train sits along the platform with the current signal positioning (i.e. if the train fits within the signals between in the up and down directions then it is not an issue).

Please note:
  1. My source for my deduction is: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi3hKHZ35rrAhWCQs0KHVVUCrIQFjAZegQIBRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftransport.vic.gov.au%2F-%2Fmedia%2Ftfv-documents%2Fchief-investigator%2F2011-11-30-signal-passed-at-danger-vline-passenger-train-8415-flinders-st-station.pdf%3Fla%3Den%26hash%3DEC79AA54D56621785C2C3BAAA9D39A16&usg=AOvVaw1BungAsVLMnErWxjrxmyQd which talked about a SPAD was committed by a Vlocity leaving platform 9 with the distances mentioned also apply to platform 7 since I assume they are roughly of the same length (which should also roughly be true for platform 6).
  2. I do not know if signal sighting is still an issue, if it has been resolved or it never was an issue to begin with.
  3. An example of signal repositioning was done at Richmond sometime last year with two new signal gantries on the upside of platform 6 and the downside of platform 5 that were slightly further away from the platform than original gantry. (Other stations such as Caulfield where platform extensions required the movement of signals are different; I am using Richmond as an example of stations where no platform extension was needed, only the signals required moving).


Hope this makes sense.
Op Kronos

The Platforms at Flinders Street can accommodate the HCMTS as well as the platforms in the City Loop. The drivers compartment will overhang the platform at Flinders Street and will be several meters in the tunnel in the City Loop. Signals will be moved at Flinders Street as has happened elsewhere, this is a relatively minor exercise. The first and last passenger doors will sit within the platform envelope.

Cameras are for drivers to check doors, not all stations have monitors nor will they be rolled out. Driver will check doors and close via the monitors in the cab, if a door is not closed the train cannot proceed. The driver will need to check and attempt too close again or if need be exit the cab to inspect. This is no different to the current feet on the network, expect for the improvement in technology. Sighting will not be an issue as I don't believe there are any curved platforms on the Sunbury or Dandenong Lines.

Lockie
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

The driver will need to check and attempt too close again or if need be exit the cab to inspect. This is no different to the current feet on the network, expect for the improvement in technology. Sighting will not be an issue as I don't believe there are any curved platforms on the Sunbury or Dandenong Lines.
Lockie91


No different, except the driver may not be able to exit onto the platform. And I thought the down platforms on the local lines between Hawksburn and Caulfield were all on a curve - but they presumably already have monitors.

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