High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

The driver will need to check and attempt too close again or if need be exit the cab to inspect. This is no different to the current feet on the network, expect for the improvement in technology. Sighting will not be an issue as I don't believe there are any curved platforms on the Sunbury or Dandenong Lines.


No different, except the driver may not be able to exit onto the platform. And I thought the down platforms on the local lines between Hawksburn and Caulfield were all on a curve - but they presumably already have monitors.
duttonbay
MATHS Stations are curved, Dandenong services do not normally stop here. Only a few early morning and late night services do. 95% of Dandenong services express South Yarra - Caulfield.

Lockie

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  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Has a revised date for the delivery of this project been forthcoming?
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Has a revised date for the delivery of this project been forthcoming?
bevans
Q4 2020. So no.

I think there are currently 17 or 18 sets at the moment all a different stages of testing. COVID19 would have delayed the introduction of the Greenfield's timetable that would have seen the HCMTS introduced.

We will see what happens on the traditional first Sunday in November.

Lockie
  footscrazy Station Master

Try the second weekend of Dec.

Sauce = Rosella
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

Werribee Line is the subject of a snap closure from 3pm each day starting 24th of August to 13th of September for HCMT testing.

It good they are using the massively reduced patronage to push ahead with what looks to be mass testing.

Lockie
  Op Kronos Station Master

Other than physically testing of each set of various functions, on the Melbourne Trains Reddit there has been an image of a mock rescue with two sets coupled to each other with one (in this case it was sets 10 and 11). There are some extra information in the comments regarding what the test involved and some technical information about communication between the sets, which I will not go into detail here.
This test also would have been part of Metro's protocol writing, i.e. what to do should a HCMT set fail or break down with x and y conditions and how to move the train should it occur.

Link to reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MelbourneTrains/comments/ienpgg/some_real_world_train_rescue_simulations_at/
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
Melbourne Trains reddit thread has a photo, which I take to be genuine, of E020 in PTV livery, in company with either #005 or 015, still undecorated, and another, also in PTV livery, but this one's number cannot be seen.
The photo was posted without a comment and there's an argument about where it was taken; i.e. Wyndham Vale or Pakenham East but there is a X'trap in the photo, with power on, which suggests to me that it is actually Newport.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MelbourneTrains/comments/ingego/how_does_the_evo_livery_shape_up_next_to_the_xtrap/

So, logically, #019 and 020 have been completed and are now under testing.

Neil
  Op Kronos Station Master

Melbourne Trains reddit thread has a photo, which I take to be genuine, of E020 in PTV livery, in company with either #005 or 015, still undecorated, and another, also in PTV livery, but this one's number cannot be seen.
The photo was posted without a comment and there's an argument about where it was taken; i.e. Wyndham Vale or Pakenham East but there is a X'trap in the photo, with power on, which suggests to me that it is actually Newport.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MelbourneTrains/comments/ingego/how_does_the_evo_livery_shape_up_next_to_the_xtrap/

So, logically, #019 and 020 have been completed and are now under testing.

Neil
ngarner
Based on the lighting in the siding, I can say that it is definitely not Newport as the lighting at Newport is not strung up on wires.

The only logical place would be Pakenham East given the number of roads that can be seen in the photo (Wyndham Vale only has around 4 roads and I can count at least 9 or 10 roads in the photo.

Regarding the X'trapolis, there have been instances of X'trapolis (and at least 1 Comeng) visiting Pakenham East in the past for various reasons which probably includes train rescue testing for protocol writing and testing purposes.

Finally, this just a guess but based on the information known so far, that other unidentified set with PTV livery is most likely to be either set 1 or set 19 with set 1 being the most likely as it is the only other set known to have PTV livery. Of course set 19 could have been delivered with PTV livery but there are currently no photos of it yet to suggest this was the case. Another hypothesis is that a set delivered earlier (one of sets 3-18; not set 2 as that is still on the Werribee Line and is still plain) could have been wrapped down at Pakenham East (I seriously doubt this at this stage).

Also, I know I touched on this before but the "first train" is meant to have some artwork (see: [color=#0066cc][size=2][font=Roboto, wf_SegoeUI, "Segoe UI", Segoe, "Segoe WP", Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]https://transport.vic.gov.au/our-transport-future/our-projec...[/font][/size][/color]) however a side note is that there is no publicly known information can be found about which design was chosen. I am not going to speculate on this matter as there could be many reasons behind this.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Melbourne Trains reddit thread has a photo, which I take to be genuine, of E020 in PTV livery, in company with either #005 or 015, still undecorated, and another, also in PTV livery, but this one's number cannot be seen.
The photo was posted without a comment and there's an argument about where it was taken; i.e. Wyndham Vale or Pakenham East but there is a X'trap in the photo, with power on, which suggests to me that it is actually Newport.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MelbourneTrains/comments/ingego/how_does_the_evo_livery_shape_up_next_to_the_xtrap/

So, logically, #019 and 020 have been completed and are now under testing.

Neil
ngarner
Definitely not Newport nor WV.

Not Newport because of the lights and not WV because of the need for electrification.
  ngarner Assistant Commissioner

Location: Seville
Thanks John & Op. I didn't expect it to be Wyndham Vale due to the lack of overhead but I wasn't aware that other types of spark had been out to East Pakenham. Not much doubt about the location then

Neil
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Thanks John & Op. I didn't expect it to be Wyndham Vale due to the lack of overhead but I wasn't aware that other types of spark had been out to East Pakenham. Not much doubt about the location then

Neil
ngarner
Xtraps have been going to Pakenham east randomly for the last few months, confused the hell out of me the first time I saw it.
  Op Kronos Station Master

The first HCMT set has ventured onto the Sunbury line.
This video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pFMPedYDBlg by Marcus Wong on 30/09/20 shows set 10 (according to video description) trqvelling under its own power near Sunshine station.
  Carnot Minister for Railways

A few bombshells in this report. Ouch!

https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-s-new-trains-being-built-in-china-by-blacklisted-belt-and-road-firm-20201002-p561hj.html

The Chinese company which won the $2.3 billion contract to build Melbourne's new train fleet is central to President Xi Jinping's controversial Belt and Road Initiative and was recently blacklisted by the US government due to the security risks posed by its ties to the Chinese government.

CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles, which beat local bids in 2016 to win the contract to build 65 new high-capacity metro trains, is a subsidiary of major Chinese state-owned rolling stock manufacturer CRRC and has been identified as a beneficiary of Uighur labour.

Further:
An Age and Sydney Morning Herald investigation has also found the Andrews government hired a person who had recently worked for Downer, which is part of the Evolution Rail consortium with CRRC, to play a key role in the tender process in 2015. Just months after CRRC and Downer won the bid in 2016, the official went back to work for Downer, raising questions about the impartiality of the tender process.



  PE2010 Station Master

Location: Newcastle
Cost and program blowout seem to be the norm.
Dodgy dealings seem to be the new norm too!
  route14 Chief Commissioner

They are trains, not political tools.
  SinickleBird Assistant Commissioner

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
There are more than enough political tools in parliament.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech


Further:
An Age and Sydney Morning Herald investigation has also found the Andrews government hired a person who had recently worked for Downer, which is part of the Evolution Rail consortium with CRRC, to play a key role in the tender process in 2015. Just months after CRRC and Downer won the bid in 2016, the official went back to work for Downer, raising questions about the impartiality of the tender process.


Carnot

Trying to understand this.

Is the report stating that Daniel Andrew's deliberately hired the resource into to ensure the CRRC bid was successful only then to allow them to return to their old job?

Is it just me or is this corruption?
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
A few bombshells in this report. Ouch!

https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-s-new-trains-being-built-in-china-by-blacklisted-belt-and-road-firm-20201002-p561hj.html

The Chinese company which won the $2.3 billion contract to build Melbourne's new train fleet is central to President Xi Jinping's controversial Belt and Road Initiative and was recently blacklisted by the US government due to the security risks posed by its ties to the Chinese government.
CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles, which beat local bids in 2016 to win the contract to build 65 new high-capacity metro trains, is a subsidiary of major Chinese state-owned rolling stock manufacturer CRRC and has been identified as a beneficiary of Uighur labour.

Further:
An Age and Sydney Morning Herald investigation has also found the Andrews government hired a person who had recently worked for Downer, which is part of the Evolution Rail consortium with CRRC, to play a key role in the tender process in 2015. Just months after CRRC and Downer won the bid in 2016, the official went back to work for Downer, raising questions about the impartiality of the tender process.


Carnot

Funny how there is no mention of or criticism in the 'report' of the Berijiklian government who coincidentally are also having trains delivered at this time by CRRC.

So even if Dan has been up to no good the story has absolutely zero credibility.

Any balance in reporting that The Age and the SMH used to have has evaporated under their new ownership and they have just become another tool of the right.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Funny how there is no mention of or criticism in the 'report' of the Berijiklian government who coincidentally are also having trains delivered at this time by CRRC.

So even if Dan has been up to no good the story has absolutely zero credibility.

Any balance in reporting that The Age and the SMH used to have has evaporated under their new ownership and they have just become another tool of the right.
bingley hall

BH raises a good point but the difference being no belt and road agreement has been signed by the queensland government.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

A few bombshells in this report. Ouch!

https://www.smh.com.au/national/melbourne-s-new-trains-being-built-in-china-by-blacklisted-belt-and-road-firm-20201002-p561hj.html

The Chinese company which won the $2.3 billion contract to build Melbourne's new train fleet is central to President Xi Jinping's controversial Belt and Road Initiative and was recently blacklisted by the US government due to the security risks posed by its ties to the Chinese government.
CRRC Changchun Railway Vehicles, which beat local bids in 2016 to win the contract to build 65 new high-capacity metro trains, is a subsidiary of major Chinese state-owned rolling stock manufacturer CRRC and has been identified as a beneficiary of Uighur labour.

Further:
An Age and Sydney Morning Herald investigation has also found the Andrews government hired a person who had recently worked for Downer, which is part of the Evolution Rail consortium with CRRC, to play a key role in the tender process in 2015. Just months after CRRC and Downer won the bid in 2016, the official went back to work for Downer, raising questions about the impartiality of the tender process.


Carnot
I do hate it when articles are posted with a couple of grab lines, but omit the detail.

CRRC is the worlds largest railway car supplier valued at over $40B, they have made train sets for dozens of cities around the world including the US. The security concerns raised in this article relate to fully fitted trains, off the shelf ready to go. Thats not what we have here in Melbourne, we are getting shells and fitting them out with our own tech. Hence the 18 month delay. Most Chinese companies are linked back to a state controlled company, it goes with China's communists vibe.

The issue with BRI and CRRC is when lovely China lets you have $2B worth of rail stock and lets you pay later. Holding small, poorer counties to ransom on loans they wont be able to pay back.

Bombardier and Alstom did not have the facilities or capacity to manufacture the 65 HCTMS, it would have required the construction of a new facility blowing out the time frame even more. Both these companies (now the same owner) are likely to be awarded contracts for next generation regional and metro train sets.
- Another 100 or so metro trains will need to be built over the next 20 years to allow the complete withdrawal of the Comengs and to cater to new lines and increased frequencies. The government is currently in discussions with Alstom about Xcrap 2.0.  
- Next generation regional trains are also on the agenda, with Bombardier in pole position to win the contract.

At least 60% of the work is being done in Melbourne by Melbournains, NSW bought fully completed sets as they don't have the skills to make trains.

I cant see future train sets coming from CRRC, China is very much on the nose now. Alstom could push out a train every couple of months for 5 - 10 years. Pretty much what they have been doing with Xcraps since the early 2000's. They just need a long term contract, not 10 trains here and 10 trains there.

As for the hiring of an expert to work on the tender, praise the gods that they state had some sense to do it. The said person was not a Downer employe, he was on a contract. Was then contracted with the state for 12 months before moving on. This isn't uncommon for skilled railway experts to go from contact to contact. Projects come and go, cant be on them forever.

Lockie
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville

Funny how there is no mention of or criticism in the 'report' of the Berijiklian government who coincidentally are also having trains delivered at this time by CRRC.

So even if Dan has been up to no good the story has absolutely zero credibility.

Any balance in reporting that The Age and the SMH used to have has evaporated under their new ownership and they have just become another tool of the right.

BH raises a good point but the difference being no belt and road agreement has been signed by the queensland government.
bevans

It's the NSW not Queensland, and they are importing trains 100% built by CRRC. As Lockie91 points out there at least there is a local component to the trains for Victoria, so unlike NSW the Vic government is doing something to provide jobs for its population (though arguably not enough).

But you'd rather defend the Fuhrer Gladys 'We don't know how to build trains in Australia' Berijiklian and argue the semantics of the 'belt and road agreement' which anyone with half a brain would know is a non-binding heads of agreement that is pretty much meaningless in the greater scheme of things.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

So what are the security concerns with complete products?  They run on many Shanghai lines reliably that I ride often.  If a train arrives at the terminus more than 2 minutes late, the driver gets 50 yuan deducted from his / her pay, so you can imagine this does not happen often.  There has been three collisions during the 30 years of network operation.  One during testing involving Siemens, two in revenue service involving Siemens and Alstom, non are actually linked to train flaws.  There were no physical injuries caused.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

So what are the security concerns with complete products?  They run on many Shanghai lines reliably that I ride often.  If a train arrives at the terminus more than 2 minutes late, the driver gets 50 yuan deducted from his / her pay, so you can imagine this does not happen often.  There has been three collisions during the 30 years of network operation.  One during testing involving Siemens, two in revenue service involving Siemens and Alstom, non are actually linked to train flaws.  There were no physical injuries caused.
route14
Security concerns not safety or reliability.

Public Transport is a massive Security risk and is an easy target for international's and domestic terror attacks as history proves. There is more to transport networks than just being on time. You have tones of data being collected, monitored and stored. Here in Melbourne for example:

- Thousands of CCTV camera across the network monitoring passengers and critical infrastructure, these all feed back into massive data centres and servers.
- Access controls such as digital keys allow access to secure parts of the network such as Substations and Signalling rooms.
- CBTC (Computer Based Train Control) is used here in Melbourne currently although it is fixed block. Signals and track side equipment monitor the network and feed train control and data into METROL.
- Emergecny Help & Information buttons feed back into stations and data centres.
- Digital Communications between drivers, METROL and Emergency services are digital and encrypted.
- PIDs are all computerised and controlled by Stations or METROL.  
- HCMTS are moving block, all controlled by computer system in a highly encrypted secure network.
- On board train control. Everything from Aircon to lights and brakes.

The security issue with all of these is if China wants to build spy or malware into its onboard train systems, that can collect data or infect other systems. The data gets into the wrong hands and you can easily cripple a network or override train control and cause an accident. Passenger counters and CCTV would tell you where and what time is the busiest on a network. Trackside equipment would tell you if trains were regularly delayed in the same locations. Disabling or interring in communication could hamper a response to an incident. PIDS and emergency help button could be interfered with to misinform the public.

This is why these systems are being delivered here in Melbourne, not pre installed in China.

Now If you don't hear from me again ASIO has read this post. Laughing

Lockie
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
PIDs and on-train info already frequently misinforms the public.Smile
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

So what are the security concerns with complete products?  

This is why these systems are being delivered here in Melbourne, not pre installed in China.
Lockie91
Where were these systems manufactured? Using computer chips sourced from where?

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