High Capacity Metro Trains (HCMT) Order

 
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
That can't be right as the HCMTs need to run to Sunbury in order for that line to use the Metro Tunnel which will have platform screen doors.

Sponsored advertisement

  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Going by what's in today's Herald-Sun the HCMT's might not be running to Sunbury, but instead to the Airport as that line has apparently been announced. Though the question on whether that station will stay a terminus is currently an ball in the air for a plan is to continue to Broadmeadows to meet the SRL
ARodH
Metro 1 will have four branches, two at each end (Pakenham/Cranbourne and Sunshine/Airport respectively).

The airport branch will terminate at....the airport, not Broadmeadows.

The SRL will connect the airport to Broadmeadows when/if stage 2 (north-east section) is finalised.

Melton/WV electrification seems to have been wrapped up into the western rail plan and that is an unknown at this stage.

  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

I think it’s pretty safe to say that HCMTs will run to Sunbury, Airport, Cranbourne and Pakenham.

The hard questions is how the western rail plan will work, there’s just so many configurations on how they could do it
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Going by what's in today's Herald-Sun the HCMT's might not be running to Sunbury, but instead to the Airport (snip)
ARodH
Any chance Murdoch could bribe his mates in Federal Parliament to make that happen a bit quicker?
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

Dangersdan707
That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
lkernan
Times Electric in Morwell is a subsiduary of CRRC, set up specifically, IIRC, for this project

Neil
  Upven Junior Train Controller

All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
Times Electric in Morwell is a subsiduary of CRRC, set up specifically, IIRC, for this project

Neil
ngarner
Yeah if you read the names and follow up with who they're really owned by it's not as "local" as some make it out to be.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
Times Electric in Morwell is a subsiduary of CRRC, set up specifically, IIRC, for this project

Neil
Yeah if you read the names and follow up with who they're really owned by it's not as "local" as some make it out to be.
Upven
As is everything in the globalised economy we live in, that is inevitable. Just Like Bombardier, Alstom and Holden are/were all owned by foreign parties with plants and assemblies in Australia and other places. Still locally made, but foreign owned. Never seen anyone really complain about that. Even Downer rail IIRC, is partly foreign owned.

Also, Care to inform me what one of these manufacturers went bust?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
Times Electric in Morwell is a subsiduary of CRRC, set up specifically, IIRC, for this project

Neil
Yeah if you read the names and follow up with who they're really owned by it's not as "local" as some make it out to be.
As is everything in the globalised economy we live in, that is inevitable. Just Like Bombardier, Alstom and Holden are/were all owned by foreign parties with plants and assemblies in Australia and other places. Still locally made, but foreign owned. Never seen anyone really complain about that. Even Downer rail IIRC, is partly foreign owned.

Also, Care to inform me what one of these manufacturers went bust?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Going by what's in today's Herald-Sun the HCMT's might not be running to Sunbury, but instead to the Airport as that line has apparently been announced. Though the question on whether that station will stay a terminus is currently an ball in the air for a plan is to continue to Broadmeadows to meet the SRL
ARodH
It is running to Sunbury. The Melbourne Metro as has been pointed out earlier, will have 2 NW Branches (Airport and Sunbury) and 2 SE Branches (Cranbourne/Pakenham). I do not know where you get the assumption that the HCMT's will not be running to Sunbury. They won't be initially before MM1 is built, but after 2025 they will be.


Michael
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Nice to see the HCMT taking their first paying passengers over the weekend.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Going by what's in today's Herald-Sun the HCMT's might not be running to Sunbury, but instead to the Airport as that line has apparently been announced. Though the question on whether that station will stay a terminus is currently an ball in the air for a plan is to continue to Broadmeadows to meet the SRL
It is running to Sunbury. The Melbourne Metro as has been pointed out earlier, will have 2 NW Branches (Airport and Sunbury) and 2 SE Branches (Cranbourne/Pakenham). I do not know where you get the assumption that the HCMT's will not be running to Sunbury. They won't be initially before MM1 is built, but after 2025 they will be.


Michael
mejhammers1
Lets clear things up re initial 7 car HCMT :  Happens in Stages - 1.  From 31/01/2021 HCMT confined to Caulfield Loop running Dandenong - Pakenham East / Cranbourne/Clyde  2. Metro 1 opens 2025 then operation comes out of Caulfield Loop and into Metro 1 operaring from Dandenong group via Metro 1 to West Footscray, and Sunbury.
3. Airport Line opens 2029 and 7 car HCMT operations extended to Airport.
  Djebel Junior Train Controller

Going by what's in today's Herald-Sun the HCMT's might not be running to Sunbury, but instead to the Airport as that line has apparently been announced. Though the question on whether that station will stay a terminus is currently an ball in the air for a plan is to continue to Broadmeadows to meet the SRL
It is running to Sunbury. The Melbourne Metro as has been pointed out earlier, will have 2 NW Branches (Airport and Sunbury) and 2 SE Branches (Cranbourne/Pakenham). I do not know where you get the assumption that the HCMT's will not be running to Sunbury. They won't be initially before MM1 is built, but after 2025 they will be.


Michael
Lets clear things up re initial 7 car HCMT :  Happens in Stages - 1.  From 31/01/2021 HCMT confined to Caulfield Loop running Dandenong - Pakenham East / Cranbourne/Clyde  2. Metro 1 opens 2025 then operation comes out of Caulfield Loop and into Metro 1 operaring from Dandenong group via Metro 1 to West Footscray, and Sunbury.
3. Airport Line opens 2029 and 7 car HCMT operations extended to Airport.
kuldalai
At what point will the change to 10 car configuration take place?  And how long is it anticipated to accomplish the changeover?  Will the additional cars for the whole fleet be stockpiled, then added to the existing sets over a weekend (optimistic timetable I know Rolling Eyes)?  Or will they be added in dribs and drabs as the additional cars are built and transferred to Pakenham East?

I fully understand and accept if the answers to these questions are not known/cannot be divulged.  They just popped into my head when I read your post, so I thought I'd ask them before I forget.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Also, Care to inform me what one of these manufacturers went bust?
Dangersdan707
Actco-Pickering.  Not really hard to find, the documentation is all on the KordaMentha website.

I left there about 12 months before they closed up.  They were one of those companies that built bits for all sorts of trains and trams.  Pretty much every class had at least one part from their factory.  
They bid for the HCMT bogies but lost out to the competition from the transport ministers home town.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
100 years ago, most of the locos weren't manufactured here either. Even by the early 1950s we were still buying locos from the other side of the world.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
100 years ago, most of the locos weren't manufactured here either. Even by the early 1950s we were still buying locos from the other side of the world.
Heihachi_73
The 'Local' Built EMDs, ALCOs and EEs to my understanding had all their engines and electronics built overseas with the car-body and bogies being done locally. Nothing new at all to have components built overseas and assembled here.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
At what point will the change to 10 car configuration take place?  And how long is it anticipated to accomplish the changeover?  Will the additional cars for the whole fleet be stockpiled, then added to the existing sets over a weekend (optimistic timetable I know Rolling Eyes)?  Or will they be added in dribs and drabs as the additional cars are built and transferred to Pakenham East?

I fully understand and accept if the answers to these questions are not known/cannot be divulged.  They just popped into my head when I read your post, so I thought I'd ask them before I forget.
Djebel
The change is supposedly happening with the opening of the Metro tunnel. Provisional acceptance of all 65 7 car sets is set for July 18 2023 with final acceptance on January 29 2024. That gives Evolution Rail something like 2 years to compete 65 sets of the additional 3 cars. Considering there will be no Tc cars in this lot it should be somewhat easier to complete them with no cab to fit out although how difficult an Mp is to assemble I don't know. If they can do 455 cars in 3 and a half years then 195 ought to be able to be done in 2 years, especially as they will have lots of experience in completing cars by then. Early in the delivery process when it looked like they were going to fall short of completing all 65 sets in time I thought that they might deliver the last units as complete 10 cars sets but that is not likely to happen now.
As to the timeframe for converting them from 7 to 10 car units who knows? Separating a semi-permanently coupled set isn't as simple lifting the pin on an auto coupler but it happens with reasonable frequency so it shouldn't be too difficult a task to insert the extra cars. However, testing the newly lengthened units is another unknown.

Neil
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
100 years ago, most of the locos weren't manufactured here either. Even by the early 1950s we were still buying locos from the other side of the world.
Heihachi_73
Not the case in Victoria where 100 years ago imports were but a very very small minority of locomotives. The entire 185 A2  class, 26 Cs, 58 D4s and all but a handful of the 261 DDs were built not only in Australia but in the VR's own workshops. It was only after WW 2 that overseas purchases became the norm with the R, J and N classes many of which, arguably, would have been better had they been better built in the workshops or as something else eg mechanical stoker fitted X class.

Granted the imported component EMD and ALCO based diesel electrics could not have been bettered at the time.
  doyle Deputy Commissioner

As well most of our trams were locally produced  
trolley buses the aec and but were mostly assembled here except the Cantons
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Re the when of 10 car HCMT.  Would be years off as 10 car HCMT are going to suck up more juice wherever  they are used, so that will require upgraded electric supply on the lines where they are used, above and beyond any required electrical upgrades to handle 7 car HCMT.  

We do however know that Metro 1 underground stations have been future proofed to allow for future 10 car HCMT operations.

With the underground station at the Airport should be OK for 7 car HCMT as used on Metro 1, but 10 cars in future underground at Airport suggest an issue to be sorted out / future proofed in the detailed planning now underway for Airport Line.

IIRC the Rollingstock Plan published some years ago said that -  when the time comes for 10 car operations then the additional order will be for a mix of full additional 10 car sets, plus a number of 3 car blocks to make some (but NOT all) of the initial  7 car HCMT sets also into 10 car sets.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

At what point will the change to 10 car configuration take place?  And how long is it anticipated to accomplish the changeover?  Will the additional cars for the whole fleet be stockpiled, then added to the existing sets over a weekend (optimistic timetable I know Rolling Eyes)?  Or will they be added in dribs and drabs as the additional cars are built and transferred to Pakenham East?

I fully understand and accept if the answers to these questions are not known/cannot be divulged.  They just popped into my head when I read your post, so I thought I'd ask them before I forget.
The change is supposedly happening with the opening of the Metro tunnel. Provisional acceptance of all 65 7 car sets is set for July 18 2023 with final acceptance on January 29 2024. That gives Evolution Rail something like 2 years to compete 65 sets of the additional 3 cars. Considering there will be no Tc cars in this lot it should be somewhat easier to complete them with no cab to fit out although how difficult an Mp is to assemble I don't know. If they can do 455 cars in 3 and a half years then 195 ought to be able to be done in 2 years, especially as they will have lots of experience in completing cars by then. Early in the delivery process when it looked like they were going to fall short of completing all 65 sets in time I thought that they might deliver the last units as complete 10 cars sets but that is not likely to happen now.
As to the timeframe for converting them from 7 to 10 car units who knows? Separating a semi-permanently coupled set isn't as simple lifting the pin on an auto coupler but it happens with reasonable frequency so it shouldn't be too difficult a task to insert the extra cars. However, testing the newly lengthened units is another unknown.

Neil
ngarner
The extension to 10 cars is not tied to the opening of MM1. Evolution Rail has a 30 year maintenance hold over the HCMTS, built into this contract would be a patronage threshold that would trigger the the expansion from 7 to 10 cars. With patronage down and MM1 not opening until 2025, I cant see this program of works happening until the 2030's.

Lockie
  historian Deputy Commissioner

100 years ago, most of the locos weren't manufactured here either. Even by the early 1950s we were still buying locos from the other side of the world.
Heihachi_73

Almost all of Victoria's steam locomotives were locally built from the early 1870s. Think the Phoenix Coy in Ballarat. This was a deliberate government decision to favour local manufacturers over UK ones, even though it was more expensive. The idea was, just as it is today, that a pound spent locally kept circulating in the local economy, whereas a pound spent in the UK stayed there. It also employed Victorian workers (voters). The more cynical among us would note that it meant profit for Victorian investors - among whom were numbered Victorian politicians and the friends of Victorian politicians.

Until the end of steam, the only exceptions were:
1) Pattern engines (i.e. the VR would get the overseas manufacturer to design a locomotive, build one example, then locally copy the design)
2) Specialist engines (e.g. the G class), and
3) Where they needed the locomotives urgently and local manufacture (i.e. Newport in the 20th C) had no capacity. The VR brought a tranche of D's from Baldwin around 1910, and, of course, the J, N (almost all the postwar ones), and R classes.

That buying overseas was an aberration can be seen in the VR purchase of diesel and electric locos.

Two classes bought holus-bolus from overseas: L and F. The L, of course, was very specialised.

All the rest were manufactured in Australia, albeit with imported engines and electrics. A US book on early diesel manufacture stated that the profit/cost of a DE loco was split roughly into thirds - one third for the maker of the diesel engine, one for the maker of the generator/motors, and the final third for manufacturer of the locomotive itself. There was no reason to assume this split was any different in Australia (especially given the premium price), so as much of the cost of the locos (and jobs) were kept in Australia.
  Upven Junior Train Controller

All very CCP - welcome onboard, but you'll never be released....
Look at all this Chinese Crap, Why don't governments buy locally!

That list is a little out of date methinks..

I know that because I used to work at one of those compaines and they went bust 2 years ago.
Times Electric in Morwell is a subsiduary of CRRC, set up specifically, IIRC, for this project

Neil
Yeah if you read the names and follow up with who they're really owned by it's not as "local" as some make it out to be.
As is everything in the globalised economy we live in, that is inevitable. Just Like Bombardier, Alstom and Holden are/were all owned by foreign parties with plants and assemblies in Australia and other places. Still locally made, but foreign owned. Never seen anyone really complain about that. Even Downer rail IIRC, is partly foreign owned.

Also, Care to inform me what one of these manufacturers went bust?
Dangersdan707
That's why we have the economic complexity of an African nation.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

None because Holden didn't go bust. GM shut it down because Abbott stopped giving subsidies to Holden which GM used to pilfer immediately to prop up the ineptitude of GM USA. If Kevin Rudd had bought Holden outright instead of subsidising then Holden might still be around.

Even with an old model in 2017 the Commodore at the time was one of the top ten selling cars in the country. Imagine if a new model was released in 2017 that was more economical and forward looking how fast sales of the new Commodore would have increased instead of the imported Opel model.
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
None because Holden didn't go bust. GM shut it down because Abbott stopped giving subsidies to Holden which GM used to pilfer immediately to prop up the ineptitude of GM USA. If Kevin Rudd had bought Holden outright instead of subsidising then Holden might still be around.

Even with an old model in 2017 the Commodore at the time was one of the top ten selling cars in the country. Imagine if a new model was released in 2017 that was more economical and forward looking how fast sales of the new Commodore would have increased instead of the imported Opel model.
simstrain
4x4 Dual Cab utes dominate 8 of the 10 top slots now.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from: