3801 Boiler and it's return to operation

 
  SavyIsJoshoArts Station Staff

Location: Gold Coast, Queensland
The Transport heritage NSW website has not made any updates about anything since it passed it's boiler test (September 6)
Does anyone know what is happening with it or has something gone wrong again
DCook
As an old saying goes.. "No news is good news."

I'm sure THNSW will update more when the right time does come. Until then, Let those involve on the project take their time in their own pace to get 3801 back on track.

Cheers,

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  zordmaker Train Controller

Location: NSW
The Transport heritage NSW website has not made any updates about anything since it passed it's boiler test (September 6)
Does anyone know what is happening with it or has something gone wrong again
DCook
The project is going through that "Oh, I just discovered yet another problem, are we going to let this thing go back out like this or are we going to fix it now?" stage.

Of the ones I've seen as of 2 weeks ago, this included issues with the cab floor, the tender and some steam pipes in the smoke box end of non standard size that had to be manufactured from scratch.

I'm sure you'll see it on the THNSW news soon.

Plans are for it to be moving up and down the yard under its own power in a few more weeks. On track trials before Christmas.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
The Transport heritage NSW website has not made any updates about anything since it passed it's boiler test (September 6)
Does anyone know what is happening with it or has something gone wrong again
The project is going through that "Oh, I just discovered yet another problem, are we going to let this thing go back out like this or are we going to fix it now?" stage.

Of the ones I've seen as of 2 weeks ago, this included issues with the cab floor, the tender and some steam pipes in the smoke box end of non standard size that had to be manufactured from scratch.

I'm sure you'll see it on the THNSW news soon.

Plans are for it to be moving up and down the yard under its own power in a few more weeks. On track trials before Christmas.
zordmaker
Thanks for the information, a shame it's taken so long (all credit for that to Dampflokwerk Meiningen)
  M636C Minister for Railways

Thanks for the information, a shame it's taken so long (all credit for that to Dampflokwerk Meiningen)

While it is convenient to blame the Germans, the mistakes and delays were all locally generated.

Meiningen tendered to design and build a boiler. They were provided with drawings of the 38 class boiler.
Meiningen submitted their drawings to Australia for approval AND THEY WERE APPROVED IN AUSTRALIA.
The boiler was built to the approved design and on arrival was found not to fit.
So who checked the drawing in Australia and why did they not notice that the dimensions were wrong?

Then the boiler was sent back to Germany in the ill founded expectation that it would be corrected or a new boiler supplied.
However, the Germans pointed out that they had built exactly what was agreed, even if it wasn't what was wanted.

Almost all of the delay occurred after the first boiler was delivered.
Some of this was due to efforts to shift the blame and to conceal the fact that the money had been wasted.

Meiningen built the boiler for "Tornado" and it is expected that an exact copy will be built for "Prince of Wales".
But Tornado's boiler was built to drawings prepared by the society building it.
These were carefully checked against the original A1 boiler drawings.

Nobody checked the proposed Meiningen 38 class boiler drawings against the original 38 boiler drawings or if they did so failed to note the discrepancies. Had the differences been corrected, the Meiningen boiler would have been in use for most of the "delay" period.

Peter
  ssaunders Train Controller

Lets hope the 11/11 test run reveals all is well. What a fiasco and poor management throughout.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks for the information, a shame it's taken so long (all credit for that to Dampflokwerk Meiningen)

While it is convenient to blame the Germans, the mistakes and delays were all locally generated.

Meiningen tendered to design and build a boiler. They were provided with drawings of the 38 class boiler.
Meiningen submitted their drawings to Australia for approval AND THEY WERE APPROVED IN AUSTRALIA.
The boiler was built to the approved design and on arrival was found not to fit.
So who checked the drawing in Australia and why did they not notice that the dimensions were wrong?

Then the boiler was sent back to Germany in the ill founded expectation that it would be corrected or a new boiler supplied.
However, the Germans pointed out that they had built exactly what was agreed, even if it wasn't what was wanted.

Almost all of the delay occurred after the first boiler was delivered.
Some of this was due to efforts to shift the blame and to conceal the fact that the money had been wasted.

Meiningen built the boiler for "Tornado" and it is expected that an exact copy will be built for "Prince of Wales".
But Tornado's boiler was built to drawings prepared by the society building it.
These were carefully checked against the original A1 boiler drawings.

Nobody checked the proposed Meiningen 38 class boiler drawings against the original 38 boiler drawings or if they did so failed to note the discrepancies. Had the differences been corrected, the Meiningen boiler would have been in use for most of the "delay" period.

Peter
M636C
Peter, a spot post.  Like many others I was agast at the new boiler being not dimensionally correct when the news went out, even to the point where I had earlier stated that China could have built the boiler for a lot less, likewise its a lot closer to get to China for inspections then Germany. At the time, China still had two shops capable of building the new boilers, I doubt if that would be the case now.

As time has passed your post really illuminates the inefficiency of the people in charge of the project, hopefully they have learnt from this sad and sorry episode and maybe even look locally if new boilers are needed for any of the fleet, in saying that I am assuming the people who built the new boiler for 3265 would be able to still do similar works and even for larger boilers.

Certainly the company at Glbn should also be part of a local consortium that can provide efficient boilers and who knows what else they could do.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

Any boiler manufacturer would have interpreted supplied drawings in exactly the same way.
Germany, China or local. And produced what was requested.
NBG.
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Unfortunately true, the overhaul of 3801 clearly shows how messed up the heritage railways sector is
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
For  updates look: https://www.facebook.com/TransportHeritageNSW/

You do not have to do facebook to see this or join up.

I believe the boiler is certified now at full original pressure.

Regards,
David Head
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Thanks for the information, a shame it's taken so long (all credit for that to Dampflokwerk Meiningen)

While it is convenient to blame the Germans, the mistakes and delays were all locally generated.

Meiningen tendered to design and build a boiler. They were provided with drawings of the 38 class boiler.
Meiningen submitted their drawings to Australia for approval AND THEY WERE APPROVED IN AUSTRALIA.
The boiler was built to the approved design and on arrival was found not to fit.
So who checked the drawing in Australia and why did they not notice that the dimensions were wrong?

Then the boiler was sent back to Germany in the ill founded expectation that it would be corrected or a new boiler supplied.
However, the Germans pointed out that they had built exactly what was agreed, even if it wasn't what was wanted.

Almost all of the delay occurred after the first boiler was delivered.
Some of this was due to efforts to shift the blame and to conceal the fact that the money had been wasted.

Meiningen built the boiler for "Tornado" and it is expected that an exact copy will be built for "Prince of Wales".
But Tornado's boiler was built to drawings prepared by the society building it.
These were carefully checked against the original A1 boiler drawings.

Nobody checked the proposed Meiningen 38 class boiler drawings against the original 38 boiler drawings or if they did so failed to note the discrepancies. Had the differences been corrected, the Meiningen boiler would have been in use for most of the "delay" period.

Peter
Peter, a spot post.  Like many others I was agast at the new boiler being not dimensionally correct when the news went out, even to the point where I had earlier stated that China could have built the boiler for a lot less, likewise its a lot closer to get to China for inspections then Germany. At the time, China still had two shops capable of building the new boilers, I doubt if that would be the case now.

As time has passed your post really illuminates the inefficiency of the people in charge of the project, hopefully they have learnt from this sad and sorry episode and maybe even look locally if new boilers are needed for any of the fleet, in saying that I am assuming the people who built the new boiler for 3265 would be able to still do similar works and even for larger boilers.

Certainly the company at Glbn should also be part of a local consortium that can provide efficient boilers and who knows what else they could do.
a6et
IIRC China still has the capacity to manufacture parts for locos, they still do so for the SY's, JS's and what ever the NG Russian copies that are still running about.
  petan Chief Commissioner

Location: Waiting to see a zebra using a zebra crossing!
News as of this afternoon, according to https://www.facebook.com/TransportHeritageNSW/?tn-str=k*F&hc_location=group_dialog
Following several weeks of extensive testing, locomotive 3801’s boiler has today been officially certified for operation.
The boiler can now be pressured to 245 psi, its original operating pressure.
The Facebook included some happy snaps of the team and 3801 Project Manager, Craig Mackey accepting the boiler certificate.

(EDIT; I see David Head has posted similar just before me)
  a6et Minister for Railways

Thanks for the information, a shame it's taken so long (all credit for that to Dampflokwerk Meiningen)

While it is convenient to blame the Germans, the mistakes and delays were all locally generated.

Meiningen tendered to design and build a boiler. They were provided with drawings of the 38 class boiler.
Meiningen submitted their drawings to Australia for approval AND THEY WERE APPROVED IN AUSTRALIA.
The boiler was built to the approved design and on arrival was found not to fit.
So who checked the drawing in Australia and why did they not notice that the dimensions were wrong?

Then the boiler was sent back to Germany in the ill founded expectation that it would be corrected or a new boiler supplied.
However, the Germans pointed out that they had built exactly what was agreed, even if it wasn't what was wanted.

Almost all of the delay occurred after the first boiler was delivered.
Some of this was due to efforts to shift the blame and to conceal the fact that the money had been wasted.

Meiningen built the boiler for "Tornado" and it is expected that an exact copy will be built for "Prince of Wales".
But Tornado's boiler was built to drawings prepared by the society building it.
These were carefully checked against the original A1 boiler drawings.

Nobody checked the proposed Meiningen 38 class boiler drawings against the original 38 boiler drawings or if they did so failed to note the discrepancies. Had the differences been corrected, the Meiningen boiler would have been in use for most of the "delay" period.

Peter
Peter, a spot post.  Like many others I was agast at the new boiler being not dimensionally correct when the news went out, even to the point where I had earlier stated that China could have built the boiler for a lot less, likewise its a lot closer to get to China for inspections then Germany. At the time, China still had two shops capable of building the new boilers, I doubt if that would be the case now.

As time has passed your post really illuminates the inefficiency of the people in charge of the project, hopefully they have learnt from this sad and sorry episode and maybe even look locally if new boilers are needed for any of the fleet, in saying that I am assuming the people who built the new boiler for 3265 would be able to still do similar works and even for larger boilers.

Certainly the company at Glbn should also be part of a local consortium that can provide efficient boilers and who knows what else they could do.
IIRC China still has the capacity to manufacture parts for locos, they still do so for the SY's, JS's and what ever the NG Russian copies that are still running about.
Dangersdan707
Not sure outside of Sandaolong which is JS only operated and do their own repairs who else does steam parts, the only other place that may do things is the old Sujiatun works that stopped overhauls and manufacturing but had several flying teams that were able to go to locations that had some steam in service, such as Yakeshi.   This was the result of CNR in most districts banning the movement of steam on their main lines.

A small facility was active in Southern China near Laiwu that had to stop overhauls as the no steam on CNR lines came into being.  Although it sometimes depended on the bureau area of where the engines were to go to.  That particular facility no longer operates.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
I have a question, did anyone even consider Ainsworth Engineering at the original time of tender for the Boiler? or weren't they even thought of?
  a6et Minister for Railways

I have a question, did anyone even consider Ainsworth Engineering at the original time of tender for the Boiler? or weren't they even thought of?
lsrailfan
The question would be could Ainsworth have built the boiler from scratch. I understand that Ipswich shops tendered for the new boiler.
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
I have a question, did anyone even consider Ainsworth Engineering at the original time of tender for the Boiler? or weren't they even thought of?
The question would be could Ainsworth have built the boiler from scratch. I understand that Ipswich shops tendered for the new boiler.
a6et
Unfortunately on the advice of certain experts ORH/RailCorp bypassed all local tenders to go with the proven (??????) track record (pun intended) of DB Meiningen who had just completed (with known defects) the new boiler for A1 Tornado.  Much to our later regret and horror.

ShockedRolling EyesConfusedCrying or Very sad

Happy reboilering,

John
  M636C Minister for Railways

Unfortunately on the advice of certain experts ORH/RailCorp bypassed all local tenders to go with the proven (??????) track record (pun intended) of DB Meiningen who had just completed (with known defects) the new boiler for A1 Tornado.  Much to our later regret and horror.


The defects in Tornado's boiler were largely confined to the rigid stays in the firebox. These did not stop the boiler being used and these were replaced during two separate occasions when the boiler was returned to the factory. These defective stays were also present in the 3801 boiler, but were replaced by Meiningen when the boiler was returned to the factory.


These were actual defects which the Germans were happy to replace at no cost. Sadly they were unable to correct the incorrect basic design due to the German boiler design not being checked against our actual requirements.


I understand that it was assumed that the boiler on 3801 would be too expensive to repair, partly due to difficulties experienced in constructing the new inner firebox fitted in 1986.


Peter
  Salty21 Junior Train Controller

Location: Canberra
Unfortunately on the advice of certain experts ORH/RailCorp bypassed all local tenders to go with the proven (??????) track record (pun intended) of DB Meiningen who had just completed (with known defects) the new boiler for A1 Tornado.  Much to our later regret and horror.

The defects in Tornado's boiler were largely confined to the rigid stays in the firebox. These did not stop the boiler being used and these were replaced during two separate occasions when the boiler was returned to the factory. These defective stays were also present in the 3801 boiler, but were replaced by Meiningen when the boiler was returned to the factory.

These were actual defects which the Germans were happy to replace at no cost. Sadly they were unable to correct the incorrect basic design due to the German boiler design not being checked against our actual requirements.

I understand that it was assumed that the boiler on 3801 would be too expensive to repair, partly due to difficulties experienced in constructing the new inner firebox fitted in 1986.

Peter
M636C
I belive that the "German" Boiler is sitting at Broadmeadows and as a asset of the NSW Government it is a wasted asset ! Why can it not be assessed by a representative from Ainsworths in Goulburn with a view towards rectifing the known defects ??
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I belive that the "German" Boiler is sitting at Broadmeadows and as a asset of the NSW Government it is a wasted asset ! Why can it not be assessed by a representative from Ainsworths in Goulburn with a view towards rectifing the known defects ??
Salty21
If it's too big or small, what are they going to do?  Build an all new 38 that's sized to match?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
If it's too big or small, what are they going to do?  Build an all new 38 that's sized to match?
"lkernan"
Sell it to some company that needs a stationary boiler.
  a6et Minister for Railways

If it's too big or small, what are they going to do?  Build an all new 38 that's sized to match?
Sell it to some company that needs a stationary boiler.
Valvegear
Wasn't there plans put in place once the decision was made to go ahead and rebuild the old boiler off 3801, and once its running to then look at the boilers of 3820, 30 and the German one to evaluate the feasibility of having one more 38cl running, likewise having the required alterations to the German boiler gives a spare?
  DCook Chief Train Controller

Location: The standard state
Not too long ago THNSW said that the German built boiler would be fixed up to Australian standards as a spare boiler, from what I know that process will probably start once 3801 is finished
  a6et Minister for Railways

Not too long ago THNSW said that the German built boiler would be fixed up to Australian standards as a spare boiler, from what I know that process will probably start once 3801 is finished
DCook
Thanks David.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Not too long ago THNSW said that the German built boiler would be fixed up to Australian standards as a spare boiler, from what I know that process will probably start once 3801 is finished
DCook
Has anyone any real idea of just what is wrong with it? Or is it still Too Soon?
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Not too long ago THNSW said that the German built boiler would be fixed up to Australian standards as a spare boiler, from what I know that process will probably start once 3801 is finished
Has anyone any real idea of just what is wrong with it? Or is it still Too Soon?
apw5910
'Has anyone any real idea of just what is wrong with it?

Good question to which an honest, accurate and detailed answer free of lies, spin and half-truths would be nice.


I believe (rightly or wrongly) that it has been said many times that it 'doesn't fit' ?
How German, Australian or Martian Standards relates to this fact eludes me - 'if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit' - regardless of whether you measure it in millimetres, inches, jumbo jets, Eiffel Towers, Statues of Liberties or bees' dicks.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Not too long ago THNSW said that the German built boiler would be fixed up to Australian standards as a spare boiler, from what I know that process will probably start once 3801 is finished
Has anyone any real idea of just what is wrong with it? Or is it still Too Soon?
'Has anyone any real idea of just what is wrong with it?

Good question to which an honest, accurate and detailed answer free of lies, spin and half-truths would be nice.


I believe (rightly or wrongly) that it has been said many times that it 'doesn't fit' ?
How German, Australian or Martian Standards relates to this fact eludes me - 'if it doesn't fit it doesn't fit' - regardless of whether you measure it in millimetres, inches, jumbo jets, Eiffel Towers, Statues of Liberties or bees' dicks.
YM-Mundrabilla
That sort of comment does not get us far. For instance, could parts of the German boiler be used with an existing boiler? For that to occur, we really need to know where the new boiler does not fit. I have heard all sorts of theories, such as the barrel is out of round or that the firebox is out of dimension.

I find it hard to believe the boiler could be out of round. If it is not then surely the boiler would be amalgamated with an existing rebuilt firebox, perhaps with usable parts out of the German firebox.

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