Chickens come home to roost

 
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
I think most right minded people would prefer the idea of an investigated allegation found to be false than a legitimate allegation swept under carpet. We have penalties for false accusers too, but make no mistake, the actual event is almost always going to have the ability to be more dangerous than the allegation alone.
Aaron
I don't believe I was suggesting otherwise.............just that the media loves whipping up a good old fashioned lynch mob at the slightest opportunity and lobbying for a modicum of balance.

(I see those nasty soccer hooligans have been at it again...........oh wait a minute.........)

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
One thing did puzzle me though during the shut down, why they used buses and cancelled the Grange train, would it not have been better to have one set of cars run the Woodville to Grange service all day and then use the cars that are spare from the Grange service on the Seaford line. They could be swapped easily enough if the need arose. It would have been less inconvenience to all most probably. Also it would cost far less than getting buses in to meet every Outer Harbour line train and passengers could simply and quickly just change trains at Woodville! The old SAR used to do this with Red Hens and it is still possible to do this terminating at Woodville as well. Someone did not think it out too well at all I reckon!
  sr1180 Locomotive Fireman

Well the fun might not be over yet....

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/05/17/20/03/adelaide-train-line-at-risk-of-being-suspended-for-weeks-following-major-failure-last-month


Why is our line special? Why do we have custom parts on what should be a bog standard railway line?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Well the fun might not be over yet....

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/05/17/20/03/adelaide-train-line-at-risk-of-being-suspended-for-weeks-following-major-failure-last-month


Why is our line special? Why do we have custom parts on what should be a bog standard railway line?
sr1180
The contractor for the Electrical system probably purchased two discontinued model HV circuit breakers really cheap Rolling Eyes
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Well the fun might not be over yet....

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2016/05/17/20/03/adelaide-train-line-at-risk-of-being-suspended-for-weeks-following-major-failure-last-month


Why is our line special? Why do we have custom parts on what should be a bog standard railway line?
The contractor for the Electrical system probably purchased two discontinued model HV circuit breakers really cheap Rolling Eyes
Pressman
If the beancounters had been kept out of the advisers to the Government the electrification would have been continued for the Gawler line then there would have been a second supply substation which should have had enough capacity to supply both the Gawler and the Seaford lines to ensure that there was a failsafe factor of redundency, something the SA Government has seemingly never heard of.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

I would suggest that allowance should be made for a little bit of press hysteria and hyperbole.

What does "blow up" actually mean? Has the circuit breaker splattered itself all over the switch room or has a relay burnt out?

Electrical components do have long deliveries, very long.
  wogman Station Staff

Location: One good foam away from Hawthorn station.
I would suggest that allowance should be made for a little bit of press hysteria and hyperbole.

What does "blow up" actually mean? Has the circuit breaker splattered itself all over the switch room or has a relay burnt out?

Electrical components do have long deliveries, very long.
steam4ian
It literally blew up, the explosion blew the doors of the building open. If someone was inside they would likely have been killed.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
I would suggest that allowance should be made for a little bit of press hysteria and hyperbole.

What does "blow up" actually mean? Has the circuit breaker splattered itself all over the switch room or has a relay burnt out?

Electrical components do have long deliveries, very long.
It literally blew up, the explosion blew the doors of the building open. If someone was inside they would likely have been killed.
wogman
If that's the case wogman, it would have destroyed a lot more than just a circuit breaker (and taken a lot longer to repair than it did)
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

It literally blew up, the explosion blew the doors of the building open. If someone was inside they would likely have been killed.
wogman
If that's the case wogman, it would have destroyed a lot more than just a circuit breaker (and taken a lot longer to repair than it did)
Pressman
It wasn't repaired, they brought the backup into use, meaning of course there is now another single point of failure in the system with no backup left.

I would suggest that allowance should be made for a little bit of press hysteria and hyperbole.
steam4ian
Thankfully there's an easy way to check for that in SA. The state government pays InDaily half a million dollars per year to write positive stories about their achievements, so you can tell if the mainstream media has been pushing the limits because a more positive version will promptly appear on InDaily.

In this case, there has not been any posting of the government's version. This would suggest one of three things:
  • The Nine News report is factual, and InDaily is keeping schtum because it's actually that bad.
  • The Nine News report is not factual, but the government has had such a bad year that they've exhausted their quota of positive stories until EOFY.
  • The Nine News report is not factual, but the government won't waste a bought and paid for positive story on Stephen Mullighan as he's about to be thrown under the train substitute bus.

I suspect the first option.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
It literally blew up, the explosion blew the doors of the building open. If someone was inside they would likely have been killed.
If that's the case wogman, it would have destroyed a lot more than just a circuit breaker (and taken a lot longer to repair than it did)
It wasn't repaired, they brought the backup into use, meaning of course there is now another single point of failure in the system with no backup left.
justapassenger
I should have been more clearer, I was referring to the repairs to the switchboard and enclosure of the said deceased circuit breaker. Arcing faults can (and do) make quite a mess.
I've worked on some similar repairs in the past, some taking weeks to rebuild.
  wogman Station Staff

Location: One good foam away from Hawthorn station.
It literally blew up, the explosion blew the doors of the building open. If someone was inside they would likely have been killed.
If that's the case wogman, it would have destroyed a lot more than just a circuit breaker (and taken a lot longer to repair than it did)
It wasn't repaired, they brought the backup into use, meaning of course there is now another single point of failure in the system with no backup left.
I should have been more clearer, I was referring to the repairs to the switchboard and enclosure of the said deceased circuit breaker. Arcing faults can (and do) make quite a mess.
I've worked on some similar repairs in the past, some taking weeks to rebuild.
Pressman
My comment was explaining what "blow up" meant and was quoting a conversation I had with someone that was directly involved with the project (but not the Siemens components). I'm not across what physical isolation is involved in the building or the actual set-up but my understanding is one of a redundant pair of Gas Insulated Switchgear breakers failed catastrophically (exploded) and blew the door/s of the building open. I guess the redundant side was isolated somehow and now continues to function albeit with no redundancy.
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Wogman, thanks for your input.

We wait for the ATSB report, strangely I have heard nothing on the usual electrical industry grapevines.

I have had two blow-ups on projects in which I have had a principal part. We had to get higher rated switchgear because the fault levels were so high. On two occasions a motor starter literally blew up and each time the operator was standing in front of the panel. No injury, only a slight scorch mark to his glove where hot gas escaped around the push button. In this case we had ducted the arc fault exhausts to outside the room. The reason for the failure was because the manufacturer had not provide the type of fuses I specified. New switches were required but the rest of the switchboard was fine after a bit of a wipe down.

I have seen other HV panels blow-up on account of either operator error, two blokes burnt but not too serious, or vermin getting in the panel.
  MaskedRailfan Train Controller

I wonder if there is any commonality between equipment supplied to SA and that used in WA & QLD? (Which are older systems)
  Halo Chief Train Controller

Going by the reset of the trains converter when passing through Lonsdale I would suspect the substation has two zones.  One from Seaford to Lonsdale.  One from Lonsdale to Adelaide.  If this is true the two circuit breakers would be for the two zones.  Thus now both zones are being powered by one breaker.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I have seen other HV panels blow-up on account of either operator error, two blokes burnt but not too serious, or vermin getting in the panel.
steam4ian
Rats are very attracted to high voltage wiring and circuitry for some reason aren't they - an electrician once told me that this was a major cause of house-fires.
Going by the reset of the trains converter when passing through Lonsdale I would suspect the substation has two zones.
Halo
I have noticed this before too.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
We've looked at this at length, there is no evidence to suggest that the presence of voltage or current in wiring attracts rats. They seem equally attracted to wiring irrespective of these variables. What seems to be more important to the critters is the 'flavour' of the insulation, natural and silicone insulation seem to be favoured more so than PVC and Teflon.

The link seems to be that we typically run cables (particularly in buildings) in places that are dark, out of human traffic ways, and not typically where we store other food for them.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
We've looked at this at length, there is no evidence to suggest that the presence of voltage or current in wiring attracts rats. They seem equally attracted to wiring irrespective of these variables. What seems to be more important to the critters is the 'flavour' of the insulation, natural and silicone insulation seem to be favoured more so than PVC and Teflon.

The link seems to be that we typically run cables (particularly in buildings) in places that are dark, out of human traffic ways, and not typically where we store other food for them.
Aaron
Thanks for that interesting response.
  fairmont1998 Station Staff

Going by the reset of the trains converter when passing through Lonsdale I would suspect the substation has two zones.  One from Seaford to Lonsdale.  One from Lonsdale to Adelaide.  If this is true the two circuit breakers would be for the two zones.  Thus now both zones are being powered by one breaker.
Halo
The opening and closing of the Main Circuit Breaker through the big dipper near Lonsdale is because the overhead changes phases at that point.
If the EMU didn't disconnect from the overhead at the change of phase there would be massive arcing.

If you hang around under the pantograph in the the trailer car when the MCB opens or closes you can sometimes hear it make a decent clunk noise.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

We wait for the ATSB report, strangely I have heard nothing on the usual electrical industry grapevines.
steam4ian
Sadly, all that has been promised so far is an 'internal investigation' by Rail Commissioner staff, which I expect to be cursory at best.

There has not been an ATSB investigation into any Adelaide Metro incident in over five years now. With such an astonishingly awesome level of safety being reached here, I would suggest that it's time for the ATSB and ONRSR to conduct a wide-ranging review to discover what is being done so right in Adelaide and how it can be applied to dangerous cowboys like Metro Trains Melbourne and Sydney Trains [/sarcasm]
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
We wait for the ATSB report, strangely I have heard nothing on the usual electrical industry grapevines.
Sadly, all that has been promised so far is an 'internal investigation' by Rail Commissioner staff, which I expect to be cursory at best.

There has not been an ATSB investigation into any Adelaide Metro incident in over five years now. With such an astonishingly awesome level of safety being reached here, I would suggest that it's time for the ATSB and ONRSR to conduct a wide-ranging review to discover what is being done so right in Adelaide and how it can be applied to dangerous cowboys like Metro Trains Melbourne and Sydney Trains [/sarcasm]
justapassenger
It is somewhat surprising that since SA is the third system in Australia to opt for 25kva electrification that they used swithing equipment that was so different from that used by QR and Perth systems.
As QR has the largest system in the country and has continued the expansion of the electrification to meet the needs of the coal systems one would assume that they would have the most up to date power supply systems and that they would carry the spares to maintain those systems which makes using one off HT switchgear in Adelaide a less than well thought out idea when a ready supply of back up parts could have been available either from Transperth or QR given that there is only a single power supply system for the Adelaide system with apparently no back up or redundancy.
Obviously someone should be clearing their desks in both the Ministers office and in the Railways.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Who says it's that different from the rest of the country? A lack of available spares does not mean unique.
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
Who says it's that different from the rest of the country? A lack of available spares does not mean unique.
Aaron
The information that was made available from the operator and the Government said it was unique many times, if it had been a more common component it should have been possible to have had the system up and running within 12 hours at worst but the point remains that the system has no built in redundancy, a glaring flaw in both design and project administration,
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I don't think your assessment is fair, commonality does not mean it's easy to source a spare. Availability of a spare component is not necessarily linked to its frequency of use.
  Mufreight Train Controller

Location: North Ipswich
I don't think your assessment is fair, commonality does not mean it's easy to source a spare. Availability of a spare component is not necessarily linked to its frequency of use.
Aaron
It would seem that QR holds stocks of critical components and is a ridiculous situation that each operator should insist on different equipment in this case a one off for their system.  
There would be considerable savings by having common equipment from the design to initial instillation to maintenance, obviously the concept of having different bells and whistles just to be different is sadly flawed.
  nscaler69 Deputy Commissioner

Location: There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots.
There would be considerable savings by having common equipment from the design to initial instillation to maintenance,
Mufreight
Not when the SA Government is concerned.

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