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North East line improvements

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      woodford Chief Commissioner

    The purpose of this thread is to (hopefully) discuss any POSSIBLE improvements to the Albury line, to bring all disussion into a single place.

    Firstly a reply to some posts to some posts in the N class acceleration thread about the news in the current budget.
    Producing another car set by taking one car from the current three 5 car sets will achieve little. This will one assumes produce 4 4 cars sets. If this is used for the planned 4th service, we will have 3 4 cars sets running instead of 2 5 cars sets . This would be make the morning Melbourne bound and afternoon trains having 8 cars availible instead of 5, a significant improvement. The REAL SERIOUS problem is service reliabilty will be  exactly the same as now, possibly even worse as there will STILL be no spare loco and  car set, an in fact ANOTHER set to break down.

    The VLine SG NEEDS 2 spare sets as well as the ones on line, to enable a service to proceed when we have a fault with one of the loco's/ cars sets in for service.

    woodford
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 17:00

    Last edited by woodford on 28 Apr 2016 17:01; edited 1 time in total

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      davesvline Chief Commissioner

    Location: 1983-1998
    I suppose the question is what service(s) become Peter, so you can pay Paul???

    I have no idea,  but surely someone must know what capacity is allocated where, and the justifications for such?? If so, pls advise?
    If the system has no capacity to give,  then you unfortunately have to just cop it and not like it?
    If the system is building capacity, then possibly some reallocation of resources may follow, which may result in what you want? Until then,  patience is a virtue. However, government not actually initiating increases in capacity will erode patience. Hence the initial question.


    Regards
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 17:22
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    I suppose the question is what service(s) become Peter, so you can pay Paul???

    I have no idea,  but surely someone must know what capacity is allocated where, and the justifications for such?? If so, pls advise?
    If the system has no capacity to give,  then you unfortunately have to just cop it and not like it?
    If the system is building capacity, then possibly some reallocation of resources may follow, which may result in what you want? Until then,  patience is a virtue. However, government not actually initiating increases in capacity will erode patience. Hence the initial question.


    Regards
    davesvline
    The problem is the current service CANNOT be relied on at all, they should either scrap it and use the resources somewhere else OR put in some decent improvements, Band aid measures will be NOT go down well at all. People are EXTREMELY pissed off up this way, I can tell you. Note: Scrapping the service would do the government no good at all!

    woodford
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 17:33
      freightgate Minister for Railways

    Location: Albury, New South Wales
    Listen to Woodford he is right about people being very upset this way. Vline services since going to SG have been ultra unreliable. I don't know why changing the number of carriages would
    Correct the problems ?

    Makes no sense.
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 18:43
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Wont having 4 sets at least alleviate the risk that there is a carriage problem?  i.e. they can sub the loco across to the wagon set?  

    Is there any slack in the N class fleet for another to go SG.

    Would be good if the Shepparton lines were SG - they could then run one subfleet and possibly increase utilisation.
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 19:37

    Last edited by james.au on 29 Apr 2016 10:12; edited 1 time in total
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?
    Posted: 28 Apr 2016 21:16
      freightgate Minister for Railways

    Location: Albury, New South Wales
    Could an A class or two be converted to standard gauge ?

    Can more carriages be converted to SG ?  The service is run bare bones with no backup for faults.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 07:12
      bevans Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?
    james.au

    The three A class locomotives still owned by Vline are on Broad Gauge.

    A60, A62, and A70. http://www.railpage.com.au/locos/a-class-a60-to-a85

    For any to be useful on the Albury service they would need conversion to SG and probably some cleaning up/servicing.  The issue I think is still going to be the lack of rolling stock on SG.  

    Anyone care to provide their view on if or when further passenger rolling stock suitable for Albury operation could be made available from the BG fleet?
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 07:49
      simstrain Chief Commissioner

    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?

    The three A class locomotives still owned by Vline are on Broad Gauge.

    A60, A62, and A70. http://www.railpage.com.au/locos/a-class-a60-to-a85

    For any to be useful on the Albury service they would need conversion to SG and probably some cleaning up/servicing.  The issue I think is still going to be the lack of rolling stock on SG.  

    Anyone care to provide their view on if or when further passenger rolling stock suitable for Albury operation could be made available from the BG fleet?
    bevans

    Here is an idea. Why don't they join with NSW and build new rolling stock that can operate to Albury and replace XPT services in NSW.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 09:17
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
    Wont having 4 sets at least alleviate the risk that there is a wagon problem?  i.e. they can sub the loco across to the wagon set?  

    Is there any slack in the N class fleet for another to go SG.

    Would be good if the Shepparton lines were SG - they could then run one subfleet and possibly increase utilisation.
    james.au


    Wagons Question...what wagons Question
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 09:51
      Boss Chief Commissioner

    Location: Caulfield Line
    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?

    The three A class locomotives still owned by Vline are on Broad Gauge.

    A60, A62, and A70. http://www.railpage.com.au/locos/a-class-a60-to-a85

    For any to be useful on the Albury service they would need conversion to SG and probably some cleaning up/servicing.  The issue I think is still going to be the lack of rolling stock on SG.  

    Anyone care to provide their view on if or when further passenger rolling stock suitable for Albury operation could be made available from the BG fleet?

    Here is an idea. Why don't they join with NSW and build new rolling stock that can operate to Albury and replace XPT services in NSW.
    simstrain
    That shouldn't take more than 10 years to co-ordinate the planning.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 09:56
      MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

    Shepparton on standard gauge is perhaps worth considering as freight is abundant and the passenger growth is encouraging. What is missing is the strategy for replacement of the current fleet with a new fleet of intercity rolling stock. That is missing because V/line do not believe they have an issue. Agree and start ordering rolling stock for standard gauge v/line in the next 12 months and set delivery timelines congruent with line conversion?
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 09:57
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?

    The three A class locomotives still owned by Vline are on Broad Gauge.

    A60, A62, and A70. http://www.railpage.com.au/locos/a-class-a60-to-a85

    For any to be useful on the Albury service they would need conversion to SG and probably some cleaning up/servicing.  The issue I think is still going to be the lack of rolling stock on SG.  

    Anyone care to provide their view on if or when further passenger rolling stock suitable for Albury operation could be made available from the BG fleet?
    bevans

    Both the premier Andrews and VLine's current temporary CEO Gary Liddle has said the Albury sevice is a pigs breakfast, They have to do something or lose what ever little credibilty they have left. I may say I do not hold much hope as so far NOTHING has been said and both VLine and the government have been barraged with complaints about the service. This of course takes the optimistic view that both of them had some credibilty to begin with.........................

    VLine and the governments handling of the Albury SG pass service has been a complete disgrace, there's not even a service status availible for Albury on VLines web site.

    woodford
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:07
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Wont having 4 sets at least alleviate the risk that there is a wagon problem?  i.e. they can sub the loco across to the wagon set?  

    Is there any slack in the N class fleet for another to go SG.

    Would be good if the Shepparton lines were SG - they could then run one subfleet and possibly increase utilisation.


    Wagons Question...what wagons Question
    The Vinelander
    Sorry sorry, ive seen the other post in the other thread picking up on the technicality!  Ive edited my original to correct it!
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:13
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Looking at vicsig, it mentions that VLine has 3 stored A Class.  Whats the reason for them being stored and not in use, possibly subbing for some Ns to allow a conversion or two?

    The three A class locomotives still owned by Vline are on Broad Gauge.

    A60, A62, and A70. http://www.railpage.com.au/locos/a-class-a60-to-a85

    For any to be useful on the Albury service they would need conversion to SG and probably some cleaning up/servicing.  The issue I think is still going to be the lack of rolling stock on SG.  

    Anyone care to provide their view on if or when further passenger rolling stock suitable for Albury operation could be made available from the BG fleet?
    bevans
    What does the current A class do that is listed as active?

    I would think that the As in storage could come out of storage and take over one or two N Class duties somewhere, freeing up that N class for conversion to operate the (speculated) 4th Albury service (assuming a move to 4x4 carriages instead of the 3x5 sets we have now) and possibly have a back up loco for Albury.  Lets not SG the As if we don't have to.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:15
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    Shepparton on standard gauge is perhaps worth considering as freight is abundant and the passenger growth is encouraging. What is missing is the strategy for replacement of the current fleet with a new fleet of intercity rolling stock. That is missing because V/line do not believe they have an issue. Agree and start ordering rolling stock for standard gauge v/line in the next 12 months and set delivery timelines congruent with line conversion?
    MetroFemme
    VLine actually does have a long term strategy, its to replace the SG cars and loco's with some kind of long distance DMU setup. it appears though the whole problem is they (VLine) do not believe they will ever get the funds to carry this off, which is probably why they are struck dumb whenever they are questioned.

    woodford
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:18
      simstrain Chief Commissioner

    Here is an idea. Why don't they join with NSW and build new rolling stock that can operate to Albury and replace XPT services in NSW.
    That shouldn't take more than 10 years to co-ordinate the planning.
    Boss

    It shouldn't but probably will take that long.

    They should take advantage of the fact that the NSW government is looking into replacing the XPT's. Build a train that is similar to vlocity / xplorer but with electric traction instead of the hyramatic setup to improve fuel economy and acceleration. Then suggest to the NSW Government to join them in building a whole stack of carriages that would reduces costs for both parties.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:24
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    What's the odds of a combined heavy maintenance base in somewhere like Albury/Wodonga to maintain the whole fleet?  You could then sell off the various bases in different parts of the built up areas of Melbourne and Sydney.  There is part of the funding solution!
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:40
      alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

    Location:
    I would think that the As in storage could come out of storage and take over one or two N Class duties somewhere, freeing up that N class for conversion to operate the (speculated) 4th Albury service (assuming a move to 4x4 carriages instead of the 3x5 sets we have now) and possibly have a back up loco for Albury.  Lets not SG the As if we don't have to.
    james.au
    Are there any power vans left to pair with these A class?
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 10:47
      simstrain Chief Commissioner

    What's the odds of a combined heavy maintenance base in somewhere like Albury/Wodonga to maintain the whole fleet?  You could then sell off the various bases in different parts of the built up areas of Melbourne and Sydney.  There is part of the funding solution!
    james.au

    No problem with the trains being built in Victoria but the NSW trains will have to be maintained in Sydney due to most services starting and ending at Central station.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 11:12
      james.au Minister for Railways

    Location: Sydney, NSW
    Depends on the maintenance regime required.  Some light maintenance will allways be required, which could be moved to the platform if its quick enough (like airlines do at the gates), but the heavy stuff could be less with a newer fleet.

    Also, you could make the same argument about lots of services out of Melbourne.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 11:25
      TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Power Trainger
    A66 has lately been involved in a lot of VLocity transfers for wheel replacing. Looking at VicSig, it seems its also used for transferring carriages to workshops as well. Also radio testing.

    I was under the impression that the other A Classes in storage had been fairly well ravaged to keep A66 up and running. I don't think bringing another one back would be worth it, the cost of maintenance would be much higher than the worth it would bring.

    I've always thought that Victoria adding an order to a NSW order to replace the XPT for more stock for Albury would be a good option, especially with the XPT coming up for replacement.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 14:47
      railblogger Chief Commissioner

    Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
    They could upgrade the stations to allow passenger trains to use both tracks.
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 14:50
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    I would think that the As in storage could come out of storage and take over one or two N Class duties somewhere, freeing up that N class for conversion to operate the (speculated) 4th Albury service (assuming a move to 4x4 carriages instead of the 3x5 sets we have now) and possibly have a back up loco for Albury.  Lets not SG the As if we don't have to.
    james.au
    Are there any power vans left to pair with these A class?
    "alstom_888m"


    Probably not, Vline appears to have 3 PCJ (491-493) power vans, they are listed as power vans only, but have a storage area usually used for bikes. These are the ones on SG., there construction is similiar to the N cars

    There is also 4 PH (451-454) power vans, these look like standard bogie louver vans with a genset in them.


    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, No wonder VLine is dragging its feet with a 4th set, no more power  vans. This raises a question was it a real good idea to remove the old power systems from the N cars on SG and make them completely dependent on a power van. It may have been extra maintence for the cars genset but it did make the cars NOT as a standard.N car with different axles.

    Power van info courtesy if Vic sig.

    woodford
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 15:07

    Last edited by woodford on 29 Apr 2016 15:10; edited 2 times in total
      TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Power Trainger
    I would think that the As in storage could come out of storage and take over one or two N Class duties somewhere, freeing up that N class for conversion to operate the (speculated) 4th Albury service (assuming a move to 4x4 carriages instead of the 3x5 sets we have now) and possibly have a back up loco for Albury.  Lets not SG the As if we don't have to.
    Are there any power vans left to pair with these A class?


    Probably not, Vline appears to have 3 PCJ (491-493) power vans, they are listed as power vans only, but have a storage area usually used for bikes. These are the ones on SG., there construction is similiar to the N cars

    There is also 4 PH (451-454) power vans, these look like standard bogie louver vans with a genset in them.


    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, No wonder VLine is dragging its feet with a 4th set, no more power  vans. This raises a question was it a real good idea to remove the old power systems from the N cars on SG and make them completely dependent on a power van. It may have been extra maintence for the cars genset but it did make the cars NOT as a standard.N car with different axles.

    Power van info courtesy if Vic sig.

    woodford
    woodford
    I believe the PH Vans were converted from existing rolling stock. Would there be another Van that could be converted into a PH Van, and would this be appropriate?
    Posted: 29 Apr 2016 15:29

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