Baxter Electrification

 
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Includes all of the grade separations and a large stabling yard, also would need costs to relocate the freight and passenger trains on the stony point line too, the costs would start to add up. Mernda line about the same length was about 600 million (very little disruption to existing network and small stabling yard), and Cranbourne line duplication around 700 million (with grade separations in comes about the cost of 1-2 billion dollars).

If you consider the above post and this post then why would anyone want to invest $1.5b in the proposed upgrades which will never deliver more customers anyhow?  The issue is clear to me, rail services are so bad on that line people are voting with their cars and not using it as much as they should or rather could.

The business case needs to forget about grade separation for a semi rural area and electrify to Stony Point and then with key loops at stations (like those in other single track sections) increase frequencies.  No wonder the place is a mess in PTV.
bevans
I think the business case kinda gold plates the electrification to Baxter options which obviously bumps up the price, with little extra benefit.

If you reduce the stabling yard to a smaller facility, just grade separate the busiest potential crossing plus no expensive station rebuilds then it would seem really viable.

Anyways this is just the "premilinary" business case, the true business case would evaluate it further and probably find more economically viable options.

1.5 billion to Baxter is definitely less viable, than the combine Mernda and Cranbourne upgrades, due to they are being in growth areas as well as good development opportunities at Mernda town centre and revitalizing Cranbourne town centre.

I don't think there's a need to electrify the whole Stony Point line, it's a rural branch line, although extending the electrified network past Frankston is a possibility. Honestly the regional rail lines like Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo would probably be better off electrified first before considering the whole length of the Stony Point corridor.

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  Yappo Locomotive Fireman

Includes all of the grade separations and a large stabling yard, also would need costs to relocate the freight and passenger trains on the stony point line too, the costs would start to add up. Mernda line about the same length was about 600 million (very little disruption to existing network and small stabling yard), and Cranbourne line duplication around 700 million (with grade separations in comes about the cost of 1-2 billion dollars).

If you consider the above post and this post then why would anyone want to invest $1.5b in the proposed upgrades which will never deliver more customers anyhow?  The issue is clear to me, rail services are so bad on that line people are voting with their cars and not using it as much as they should or rather could.

The business case needs to forget about grade separation for a semi rural area and electrify to Stony Point and then with key loops at stations (like those in other single track sections) increase frequencies.  No wonder the place is a mess in PTV.
I think the business case kinda gold plates the electrification to Baxter options which obviously bumps up the price, with little extra benefit.

If you reduce the stabling yard to a smaller facility, just grade separate the busiest potential crossing plus no expensive station rebuilds then it would seem really viable.
True Believers
I don't understand why it would need a proper stabling yard when there is one not far away?

Those 5 level crossing removals that are costed could be only 1 (or 2 max) regardless of what current policy aims for. Obviously Moorooduc rd needs a removal but beyond that?
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I don't understand why it would need a proper stabling yard when there is one not far away?
Yappo
Baxter yard is supposed to replace Frankston and was originally going to replace Carrum sidings as well.  

Since the level crossing removal was already in progress and they needed something now, Kananook was built as a replacement for Carrum instead.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/mistruths-federal-election-promise-on-mornington-train-appears-distant-after-1-5b-quote-20201113-p56eju.html

Well, well, well. Pork Barreling by a Cabinet minister to retain his seat, following 'safe' LNP seats switching at the state election?
  TrackRailroad Train Controller

Location: Frankston Line
The costs cited in the preliminary business case for the Baxter rail electrification are much higher than what I imagined looking at it initially.

I have not had a chance to review the preliminary business case in great detail, but I agree to reduce costs maybe just key level crossings could be removed, such as at Moorooduc Highway (definitely required) and Robinsons Road. I think whilst extending to Langwarrin would be beneficial and improve public transport usage in the area, it would make more sense to extend to Baxter to  improve access to the wider Mornington Peninsula, with provision for a large bus interchange with a  variety of local and express bus services across the Mornington Peninsula.

Parking pressure is very high within Frankston CBD and a new electrified rail link would improve access and economic growth within the Frankston CBD, access to Monash University Peninsula and improve areas poorly serviced by public transport such as Karingal, Frankston South and Langwarrin.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Here we go again overthinking the obvious need for rail upgrades right through to Stony Point.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/better-buses-suggested-rather-than-rail-extension
  Tii Junior Train Controller

Here we go again overthinking the obvious need for rail upgrades right through to Stony Point.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/better-buses-suggested-rather-than-rail-extension
bevans
I guess there are so many projects that need doing, it is what's the best for $ value in the medium term as IV suggests. The loop reconfiguration does look like it would provide more benefits across the network before the Baxter extension/electrification. Buses are complimentary and as an interim have to fill the gaps across the network where rail deficiencies still exist until they can be addressed whenever time/money/will exists. Pretty hard choices ahead
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Electrify to Baxter sidings with single track and minimal grade separation and use it just for stock storage and movement with the diesel retained for passengers. Close the sidings at Frankston and Kananook. Then wait for the howls of outrage and demand for duplication and full service. It is pretty obvious that stage 2 would follow on quickly!
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
There are not that many services between baxter and frankston now, if you double the services single track would still work.  Victoria has unecessarily complicated this project.  Even storage at Baxter should be de-scoped.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Here we go again overthinking the obvious need for rail upgrades right through to Stony Point.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/better-buses-suggested-rather-than-rail-extension
bevans
Once again, the poor busses getting a bashing.

Induced demand or 'run it and they will come' is what is needed here before hundreds of million are sunk into a project with very little benefit.

There is no reason why $1 - 2 million could not be spent on better direct 'rail buses' first.

Route 776 which is the only service from Frankston Station runs a total of 7.... Seven times Monday - Friday, 3 times on a Saturday and zip on a Sunday. Of those seven trip, only 4 one direct ion, 3 the other service Baxter in each peak. (70 x 8 = 560 daily passenger movements)

782/783 Which covers the majority of the population centre and services almost every station on the Stony Point line runs every two hours from Crib Point and about hourly from Hastings Monday to Friday.

These routes don't even have the basic 40 minute 7 day service that other Metro busses do.

If there is such a demand, 776 could run 20 minutes from 5am - 9pm Weekdays, and every 40 minutes off peak weekends. (108 services daily, [54 services each direction] x 70 = 7560 passenger movements)

782/783 could be returned to two routes, one local route running every 40 minutes the entire length. With a shorter, high frequency peak route servicing Hasting, Tyabb and Somerville every 20 minutes direct to Frankston, meeting every second train. (108 services daily x 70 = 7560 passenger movements)

For pennies, the area could be well serviced by busses, quadrupling the current service residents have to endure.

A bus carries roughly 70 Pax.

A single sprinter car 90 Pax, let's assume every service is run by two sprinter cars, 180 pax per service. 22 services Monday - Friday both directions, 3960 passenger movements daily.

Upgraded bus services - 19,480 passenger movements daily. Assuming every seat on every service is full.

If every bus coming into Frankston from Baxter or Stony Point is bursting at the seems during just the peak, then your business case might start to stack up.

Lockie

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