Baxter Electrification

 
  ptvcommuter Train Controller



Funding has been cut for the Baxter project from the current Liberal Government in the latest budget

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  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Good find PTV. They’ve been talking on about Andrews not moving fast enough on the project; will be interesting to see if they shut up or double down. My money’s on the latter.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Goes against what hunt told me. ‘Only the liberals will extend the line to baxter’
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Yeah... Hunt says a lot of things.

It will eventually get built by one side or the other - once all of the Frankston line LX removals (and probably also the metro tunnel) are done.
  MetroFemme Assistant Commissioner

Been talked about for 2 years and may take another 5 to deliver.

What is wrong with the approach to projects in this state?
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Been talked about for 2 years and may take another 5 to deliver.

What is wrong with the approach to projects in this state?
MetroFemme

Extending to Baxter has ben talked about for probably 30 years.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the approach to this project - it will happen, but there are more pressing priorities further up the list.  Same as they didn't just start all 50 LX removals in one hit.

Once the Frankston line upgrades are all done (including Kananook depot, which I forgot above), Baxter would be the next in line.

If you want to talk about projects which get talked about for decades but never get built, the airport and Doncaster rail lines would be far better examples than Baxter.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

It will eventually get built by one side or the other - once all of the Frankston line LX removals (and probably also the metro tunnel) are done.
Adogs


No political bias but I have no faith in the Liberal government being able to deliver this project. They themselves have cut funding for this project even with the business case due for completion this year.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Just finish the work to stony point and be done with it.
  Crossover Train Controller

Location: St. Albans Victoria
Just finish the work to stony point and be done with it.
freightgate
I would agree , otherwise we are left with a stump of a line which will be operationally expensive and inconvenient to run and have will have to electrify in the future due to population growth at a greater cost then if done now
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Cheaper way, just use to velocities sets on the line with a crossing loop at a station with two platforms midway, or is that too easy a solution.
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  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Cheaper way, just use to velocities sets on the line with a crossing loop at a station with two platforms midway, or is that too easy a solution.
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trainbrain
What we're saying is to just cough up the extra $100 million (or whatever it's going to be) to get the line electrified down to Stony Point with the upgrades of the necessary stations, to avoid the confusion and the quite frankly weird arrangement that will be a short diesel service from Baxter. Furthermore, doing the work now, while all the troops are mobilised, will save the 10 business cases and feasibility studies that will undoubtedly be undertaken before the line is eventually electrified or closed (most likely the former due to political reasons).
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Discussion of the electrification of the Stony Point line is a Sisyphean task. It is the same as it ever was - the discourse hasn't changed at all. The fundamentals are thus:

  1. Metro Trains Melbourne and the transport bureaucracy that supports it have declared that in order to increase reliability (among other, less savoury motivations) the Melbourne suburban network needs to be sectorised into sets of running lines with their own independent stabling yards and Train Maintenance Facilities. Thus, there is a requirement for a large Train Maintenance Facility (comparable in size to Epping or Craigieburn) on the Frankston line. The optimal location for such a facility is Baxter, as further along the line from Frankston (eliminating dead-heading) and there are large tracts of undeveloped land adjacent to the line. This necessarily requires electrification between Frankston & Baxter to enable this. A Train Maintenance Facility at Baxter would enable the total abolition of Frankston Yard and thus 'unlock' redevelopment of a tidy parcel of Frankston CBD land (cha-ching!).
  2. The line section between Frankston & Baxter passes near the two large 'trip generators' of Frankston Hospital and the Monash University Peninsula Campus. Frequent electrified suburban services extended from existing Frankston Line services would gain immediate and steady traffic from stations at these locations (as indeed Leawarra does now on the Stony Point railcar service). The rest of the line passes through existing suburbia that is less lucrative from a traffic perspective. Baxter does provide a useful Park & Ride location. Now, the economics of Pork & Ride facilities are abysmal, but they are viewed by politicians as a ready vote winner because they enable commuters to avoid the perceived indignity (but legitimate hassle) of riding a bus to the station.'
  3. The only reason that the existing Stony Point railcar service didn't get Jeffed in the 1990s is because the Long Island steel train runs along it and thus cross-subsidises the track maintenance for a large portion of the line. Electrification of the Stony Point line does not benefit freight in our current economic context. Current and predicted passenger growth will not justify such a large investment on its own.
  4. The Sprinters running the Stony Point railcar service are getting tired and will need replacement at some stage around 2030.

Thus there are three predictable outcomes assuming Baxter electrification occurs, in descending order of likelihood:
  1. The Stony Point service continues as-is (including termination at Frankston), with Sprinters replaced past 2030 or so with something else. I would wager that a Battery Electric Multiple Unit that charges as it runs between Frankston & Baxter would be a fitting replacement.
  2. Replacement with buses - the 782 bus gets upgraded to an all-day 15-minute frequency minimum Smart Bus-style service once Baxter is electrified, possibly with bus lanes and traffic light priority.
  3. Flinders turns into a hyper- marginal Federal division and the pork barrels get rolled in (i.e Stony Point electrification). The economics are atrocious but the present political attitude towards infrastructure investment is sufficiently idiotic that it could absolutely be rammed through Treasury.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

What’s the point of electrifying to Stony Point, it’s a complete waste of money.

Baxter as a project is fine, Somerville and Hastings have a relative high population and catchment to justify future electrification

As for the line beyond Hastings, there is no point and waste of money which could be spent on other worthwhile projects

No need to electrify to Stony Point just run a shuttle to Baxter when it is done and then Hastings in the future. Or, close the rest of the line
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Some Points from a local to the area
1 the line won't be closed in any fashion as it would be political suicide for anyone to do so and when it was closed in the 80s there was a massive local campaign to bring back the train and alas it came back, No Jeff, long island train has nothing to do with keeping the line open, its a relatively short branch with no bridges and in an area that will unfortunately be consumed by urban sprawl.
2 The line Gets sufficient traffic as far as Crib Point (Second Last stop!) due to People Park and riding from Balnarring,flinders ect
3 Eventually it will be electrified. When? sometime this century one hopes
4 The Sprinters will be around for some time soon, Look at the H and N sets!
5 If it is replaced by a bus service it would be used significantly less as people prefer to park and ride, most users past hasting don't live there remember! its a common sight to see the public buses empty

So, It did close in the 80s beyond Long Island but a vigorous campaign bought it back, No clue why Jeff didn't attempt to kill it off (to my knowledge).

Baxter as a project is fine, Somerville and Hastings have a relative high population and catchment to justify future electrification As for the line beyond Hastings, there is no point and waste of money which could be spent on other worthwhile projects
ptvcommuter
No no, Remember its Political Suicide to close a passenger line in this day and age and it does get sufficient catchment beyond Hastings.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The Metro drivers down there are apparently keen to get their hands on some Vlocities and are constantly lodging faults on the Sprinters.

Not sure if that says more about the drivers, or V/Line's standards for maintenance.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

What's the point electrifying to Stony Point, if most of the rail line is single track?

Stony Point and Hastings, I would argue are rural towns and would be better be served by V-line than Metro.

Meanwhile Deer Park is a suburb and served by V-line than Metro. Isn't that silly?

Metro is serving a service in rural town, meanwhile V-line is now serving suburbs in the west of Melbourne like Tarniet, Deer Park and Wydnham Vale.

Isn't that silly. Stony Point electrification is definitely not a priority at the moment.

Maybe adding passing loops on the Stony Point line like they are doing on the regional rail lines would be more benefitial.

Stony Point line is a regional rail line, and should be treated like one.

And yes Craigeburn, Sunbury and even Mernda were once regional towns, but they've morphed into suburbs.
That's unlikely to happen to Stony Point in the near future as the growth is more focused in the West, North, North west and South East.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
What's the point electrifying to Stony Point, if most of the rail line is single track?

Stony Point and Hastings, I would argue are rural towns and would be better be served by V-line than Metro.

Meanwhile Deer Park is a suburb and served by V-line than Metro. Isn't that silly?

Metro is serving a service in rural town, meanwhile V-line is now serving suburbs in the west of Melbourne like Tarniet, Deer Park and Wydnham Vale.

Isn't that silly. Stony Point electrification is definitely not a priority at the moment.

Maybe adding passing loops on the Stony Point line like they are doing on the regional rail lines would be more benefitial.

Stony Point line is a regional rail line, and should be treated like one.

And yes Craigeburn, Sunbury and even Mernda were once regional towns, but they've morphed into suburbs.
That's unlikely to happen to Stony Point in the near future as the growth is more focused in the West, North, North west and South East
True Believers
Stony point is not a town, its literally a railway station + Pier +one shop + 3 houses and a caravan park, Its classified as part of crib point due to how small it is. Hastings Is not a rural town and has not been in my lifetime, its part of the great thing called urban sprawl. I agree sparking is not a priority however it is part of the metro network as has been for the past 20 years and is not going to change. Its not a regional line its the last branchline service in the country.The Current service is sufficient and the locals are happy that they still have a train service. and no, there is not the pressing demand for any passing loops on this Line as it has none!
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

What's the point electrifying to Stony Point, if most of the rail line is single track?

Stony Point and Hastings, I would argue are rural towns and would be better be served by V-line than Metro.

Meanwhile Deer Park is a suburb and served by V-line than Metro. Isn't that silly?

Metro is serving a service in rural town, meanwhile V-line is now serving suburbs in the west of Melbourne like Tarniet, Deer Park and Wydnham Vale.

Isn't that silly. Stony Point electrification is definitely not a priority at the moment.

Maybe adding passing loops on the Stony Point line like they are doing on the regional rail lines would be more benefitial.

Stony Point line is a regional rail line, and should be treated like one.

And yes Craigeburn, Sunbury and even Mernda were once regional towns, but they've morphed into suburbs.
That's unlikely to happen to Stony Point in the near future as the growth is more focused in the West, North, North west and South East
Stony point is not a town, its literally a railway station + Pier +one shop + 3 houses and a caravan park, Its classified as part of crib point due to how small it is. Hastings Is not a rural town and has not been in my lifetime, its part of the great thing called urban sprawl. I agree sparking is not a priority however it is part of the metro network as has been for the past 20 years and is not going to change. Its not a regional line its the last branchline service in the country.The Current service is sufficient and the locals are happy that they still have a train service. and no, there is not the pressing demand for any passing loops on this Line as it has none!
Dangersdan707
Very well said DD - and yes, I would argue it is the last true branchline.

More importantly, particularly addressing True Believers here, can we at least manage on Railpage to not talk about whether things are "Metro" or "V/Line"? It doesn't help any discussion to talk about whether the drivers wear blue or purple overalls; what's relevant is the level of service and how that service fits into the rest of the network.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

If you add a couple passing loops, couldn't you increase the frequency of service on the Hastings/Stony Point corridor?
Also is it worth keeping it a true branchline?

Why can't you run the service direct into the CBD?

What I meant is the service delivered on the Stony Point line is equivalent to the intercity regional rail lines. Frequency is every hour.

While Deer Park and Tarneit for instance run a less than optimal frequency compared with lines already electrified. Even 20 minutes during peak. (with exception to the outer parts of the Hurstbridge line.)

The Stony Point line, runs like the old Whittlesea branch or the Healesville branch. Meanwhile those branches closed for many years ago, Stony Point is the last one.

What makes Stony Point the special one? I'm not too sure? Is it cause of the port? Is it cause it has decent size coverage of residential area? Idk?
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
What makes Stony Point the special one? I'm not too sure? Is it cause of the port? Is it cause it has decent size coverage of residential area? Idk?
True Believers
It's because it has a frequent freight service on it, meaning the rails have to stay open anyway.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
What makes Stony Point the special one? I'm not too sure? Is it cause of the port? Is it cause it has decent size coverage of residential area? Idk?
It's because it has a frequent freight service on it, meaning the rails have to stay open anyway.
TOQ-1
Remember that the passenger service was removed in 1981 and reinstated in 1984, so there was some demand for it
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
If you add a couple passing loops, couldn't you increase the frequency of service on the Hastings/Stony Point corridor?
Also is it worth keeping it a true branchline?

Why can't you run the service direct into the CBD?

What I meant is the service delivered on the Stony Point line is equivalent to the intercity regional rail lines. Frequency is every hour.

While Deer Park and Tarneit for instance run a less than optimal frequency compared with lines already electrified. Even 20 minutes during peak. (with exception to the outer parts of the Hurstbridge line.)

The Stony Point line, runs like the old Whittlesea branch or the Healesville branch. Meanwhile those branches closed for many years ago, Stony Point is the last one.

What makes Stony Point the special one? I'm not too sure? Is it cause of the port? Is it cause it has decent size coverage of residential area? Idk?
True Believers
Money and demand don't require it the current service is fine

Frequency, that's why if it terminated at Southern cross the frequency would be horrendous

nope, its a branchline and should be treated as such, only has the frequency due to terminating at Frankston and connecting to suburban services

Its used as the locals fought to retain it in the 80s that why even when closed there was a relentless campaign to return services. leave it as it is.

I will remind you AGAIN that most of the passenger on it are park and ride. they do not live in Hastings or crib point! The line is open and the locals are happy to have a train service and I doubt it shall change anytime soon. If it was closed it would be political suicide. I have no idea why it wasn't Jeffed into oblivion
  62440 Chief Commissioner

Why electrify to the depot? Just use a 2 car diesel to shuttle trains between Frankston and Baxter. It works in Adelaide.

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