Melbourne Metro tunnel 2

 
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Reading through your replies to my map, Rushall is above ground.
Doncaster rail is required. The traffic is terrible.
I didn't know that Rushall was dangerous.
I will rethink Doncaster and Fishermans Bend.
I thought Point Cook rail would be good once, but it would be easier to just have trams out there that connect to Laverton station.
I didn't just have Williamstown there to use its own tracks, but to also have extra capacity and have Werribee more expresslike. This would also get more people on Williamstown trains - it currently only has 3 stations that it serves by itself.
And I would keep Clifton Hill myself - it's a good interchange for someone who wants to go up to South Merang/Mernda.

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  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
Raze Rushall and Merri and build a new station exactly in between and get rid of that curve.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I think that Clifton Hill should remain on the South Morang line if possible because otherwise Hurstbridge Line users would have to wait until Flagstaff to interchange, which is quite frankly a waste of time (I'm assuming it's Sunday when busses don't run).
reubstar6

You are also assuming you want get off a station and go for a quick walk. If the line didn't go to Clifton hill it would be quicker if the Hurstbridge users got off at Westgarth and change to Merri, it is a 10 minute walk, instead going into the city loop.

But anyways, it just someone suggested cutting down the tunnels since they are expensive, but the catch is Hurstbridge passengers don't have a quick connection, but 10 minute walks ain't that awful. The lack of South Yarra connection from Metro 1 would be difficult since that one you have to head into city and back if wanna interchange between Sandringham and Dandenong, but it aint the most common journey.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Doncaster rail is required. The traffic is terrible.
Mr Gus Meister
And yet the most recent Doncaster rail feasibility study found that 98% of all patronage on a Doncaster heavy rail line would come from... existing PT users. Oops.

Bus Rapid Transit is an appropriate solution for the area. Light rail between Doncaster Hill and the City maybe is by some miracle Doncaster, Bulleen etc turn into a marginal electorate.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

Doncaster rail is required. The traffic is terrible.
And yet the most recent Doncaster rail feasibility study found that 98% of all patronage on a Doncaster heavy rail line would come from... existing PT users. Oops.

Bus Rapid Transit is an appropriate solution for the area. Light rail between Doncaster Hill and the City maybe is by some miracle Doncaster, Bulleen etc turn into a marginal electorate.
LancedDendrite
But if you had heavy rail, you would get buses off the freeway and you could get rid of the transit lane, to allow more space for cars. But I do get your point.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

Reading through your replies to my map, Rushall is above ground.
Doncaster rail is required. The traffic is terrible.
I didn't know that Rushall was dangerous.
I will rethink Doncaster and Fishermans Bend.
I thought Point Cook rail would be good once, but it would be easier to just have trams out there that connect to Laverton station.
I didn't just have Williamstown there to use its own tracks, but to also have extra capacity and have Werribee more expresslike. This would also get more people on Williamstown trains - it currently only has 3 stations that it serves by itself.
And I would keep Clifton Hill myself - it's a good interchange for someone who wants to go up to South Morang/Mernda.
Mr Gus Meister
About Rushall, remove the station, its not like the stations are not in walking distance. The curve and bend is a hazard so its best to reroute the railway underground as proposed by Doncaster rail study team.

Traffic is terrible everywhere, traffic means productivity into the city centre. They may have good intentions but the real cost and risk they play compared with other projects make it politically difficult and not economy smart. There is already an established DART system, just improve that system to BRT standards.

Improving transport links to the North, West and South west is kinda the priority, this is where all the extra load is on the rail system. Segregating the lines is the priority not adding new ones to the mix.

Trams in Point Cooke, well then put Trams to Werribee plaza that makes more sense but still that sounds silly. Point Cooke not really, improving the buses by putting double decker buses, run on segregated bus ways is all thats needed. Trams are slow, buses are fast, the problem is you need dedicated lanes and bigger buses to cater the extra demand.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Doncaster rail is required. The traffic is terrible.
And yet the most recent Doncaster rail feasibility study found that 98% of all patronage on a Doncaster heavy rail line would come from... existing PT users. Oops.

Bus Rapid Transit is an appropriate solution for the area. Light rail between Doncaster Hill and the City maybe is by some miracle Doncaster, Bulleen etc turn into a marginal electorate.
But if you had heavy rail, you would get buses off the freeway and you could get rid of the transit lane, to allow more space for cars. But I do get your point.
Mr Gus Meister
More space for cars = more traffic. Induced demand is a real thing and will inevitably clog up any new or upgraded freeway despite what certain *ahem* Transurban-ised politicians claim. Taking buses off the freeway in lieu of heavy rail/light rail/BRT won't benefit car traffic.

What would benefit traffic on the Eastern Freeway is tolling, or at the very least a peak-period congestion charge. Adding an actual cost to a trip along the Eastern will discourage 'marginal' drivers - that is, people who could've used other routes or modes of transport - from using the freeway.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

I know that more freeway space means more cars, but if you could make the train faster, more people would use it than driving. Most people work on speed, not lanes on a freeway!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I know that more freeway space means more cars, but if you could make the train faster, more people would use it than driving. Most people work on speed, not lanes on a freeway!
Mr Gus Meister
Your missing the point it is not all about speed, if it is competitive with the road network. That include cost of travel, frequency of service, of course how long it takes, and finally how busy the service is.

Having road charging is a good policy implemented in European countries that is proven to reduce car congestion by putting fees on busy sections of roads. Since a road can only take a certain amount of vehicles before it becomes deadlocked, the charge ensures that the capacity of the road doesn't reach the limit and it will flow freely.

Now a Doncaster railway is good on paper, but the area isn't growing or increasing much in density compared with areas already connected by rail. Yes the buses are full and unreliable for Doncaster and the road is full. But that doesn't mean it needs a railway. Other areas such as Wollert (maybe) , Cranbourne East and Mernda are areas where a bus/light rail link would be not enough to cater the growth, as well as got a dedicated area for extension. Doncaster lost most of its alignment and is not a growing outer suburb it once was. An upgrade to its bus service or a light rail will be enough to cater the area, some can connect onto the existing Hurstbridge or Burnley group railways to get into the CBD.
  Mr Gus Meister Junior Train Controller

I know that more freeway space means more cars, but if you could make the train faster, more people would use it than driving. Most people work on speed, not lanes on a freeway!
Your missing the point it is not all about speed, if it is competitive with the road network. That include cost of travel, frequency of service, of course how long it takes, and finally how busy the service is.

Having road charging is a good policy implemented in European countries that is proven to reduce car congestion by putting fees on busy sections of roads. Since a road can only take a certain amount of vehicles before it becomes deadlocked, the charge ensures that the capacity of the road doesn't reach the limit and it will flow freely.

Now a Doncaster railway is good on paper, but the area isn't growing or increasing much in density compared with areas already connected by rail. Yes the buses are full and unreliable for Doncaster and the road is full. But that doesn't mean it needs a railway. Other areas such as Wollert (maybe) , Cranbourne East and Mernda are areas where a bus/light rail link would be not enough to cater the growth, as well as got a dedicated area for extension. Doncaster lost most of its alignment and is not a growing outer suburb it once was. An upgrade to its bus service or a light rail will be enough to cater the area, some can connect onto the existing Hurstbridge or Burnley group railways to get into the CBD.
James974
A CBD toll would also work. If they really didn't want to have heavy rail, they could run express trams from the CBD with stops where the stations are, running at a metro/train frequency. This is sometimes called PreMetro.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

You could go into a tunnel before the curve, cut the curve that way, and then continue on to wherever. I wonder if it would be worth having connections to the Hurstbridge/Doncaster lines if it were built. You'd imagine they would build a line to Doncaster with it, as it would fill a great gap in the network. I'm sure that it would be feasible, using the build and they will come principal.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

I am currently working on a youtube video on this topic. I am going to do some research on this. Thankfully Daniel Bowen has covered the topic briefly. I'll upload it here when it's completed. Smile
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Will be interested in seeing it.
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
You could go into a tunnel before the curve, cut the curve that way, and then continue on to wherever. I wonder if it would be worth having connections to the Hurstbridge/Doncaster lines if it were built. You'd imagine they would build a line to Doncaster with it, as it would fill a great gap in the network. I'm sure that it would be feasible, using the build and they will come principal.
reubstar6
I would suspect that if the Metro 2 tunnel was to be built with a portal before Clifton Hill then connections to the Hurstbridge & Doncaster lines would definitely be needed.  Reason being that trains from Hurstbridge (& presumably Doncaster) would need to access Epping workshops as that is the main works depot for that group of lines. I believe that is the Metro Trains strategy for untangling the network - to have major works depots near the ends of the lines with minor works depots at intermediate locations.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

You could go into a tunnel before the curve, cut the curve that way, and then continue on to wherever. I wonder if it would be worth having connections to the Hurstbridge/Doncaster lines if it were built. You'd imagine they would build a line to Doncaster with it, as it would fill a great gap in the network. I'm sure that it would be feasible, using the build and they will come principal.
I would suspect that if the Metro 2 tunnel was to be built with a portal before Clifton Hill then connections to the Hurstbridge & Doncaster lines would definitely be needed.  Reason being that trains from Hurstbridge (& presumably Doncaster) would need to access Epping workshops as that is the main works depot for that group of lines. I believe that is the Metro Trains strategy for untangling the network - to have major works depots near the ends of the lines with minor works depots at intermediate locations.
jdekorte
No reason why workshops couldn't be built on the Hurstbridge/Doncaster Line instead. No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
  rokaifly Station Master

If they do, keep the  rushall-Merri section  for trains needing to go to Epping
  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
You could go into a tunnel before the curve, cut the curve that way, and then continue on to wherever. I wonder if it would be worth having connections to the Hurstbridge/Doncaster lines if it were built. You'd imagine they would build a line to Doncaster with it, as it would fill a great gap in the network. I'm sure that it would be feasible, using the build and they will come principal.
I would suspect that if the Metro 2 tunnel was to be built with a portal before Clifton Hill then connections to the Hurstbridge & Doncaster lines would definitely be needed.  Reason being that trains from Hurstbridge (& presumably Doncaster) would need to access Epping workshops as that is the main works depot for that group of lines. I believe that is the Metro Trains strategy for untangling the network - to have major works depots near the ends of the lines with minor works depots at intermediate locations.
No reason why workshops couldn't be built on the Hurstbridge/Doncaster Line instead. No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
John.Z
Where would you build workshops for the Hurstbridge/Doncaster lines the size of the Epping workshop? Epping is designed to handle trains from that group of lines, and a facility there controls the signalling for the Hurstbridge line.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
Its not for all time-sake, its so it creates an easy interchange between the two lines. If excluded, its approximately a 10-15 minute walk between the two lines.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
Its not for all time-sake, its so it creates an easy interchange between the two lines. If excluded, its approximately a 10-15 minute walk between the two lines.
James974
And the 3 people per train who interchange in peak should outweigh the remaining 1197 on the train who just want to shave 10 minutes off of their train journey into the CBD?
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
Its not for all time-sake, its so it creates an easy interchange between the two lines. If excluded, its approximately a 10-15 minute walk between the two lines.
And the 3 people per train who interchange in peak should outweigh the remaining 1197 on the train who just want to shave 10 minutes off of their train journey into the CBD?
John.Z
Where is the disadvantage having one extra stop, the diversion isn't so great. The only real disadvantage it will cost more, but overall these lines are essential to be connected. The lines are right next to each other. So people from Clifton Hill can continue to take the train from either Hurstbridge and South Morang. And since our network is radial, a lot more people are doing cross-trips than you may think. Many people change at Footscray from the Werribee line to get to Sunshine for example.

South Yarra interchange is different for Metro Tunnel since there is a lack of room involving expensive purchases of land. Clifton Hill is much easier to create an interchange and improving the entrances there at the same time.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

No need to route Mernda via Clifton Hill for old time sake, it creates an uneccessary diversion between Merri and Parkville Stations.
Its not for all time-sake, its so it creates an easy interchange between the two lines. If excluded, its approximately a 10-15 minute walk between the two lines.
And the 3 people per train who interchange in peak should outweigh the remaining 1197 on the train who just want to shave 10 minutes off of their train journey into the CBD?
Where is the disadvantage having one extra stop, the diversion isn't so great. The only real disadvantage it will cost more, but overall these lines are essential to be connected. The lines are right next to each other. So people from Clifton Hill can continue to take the train from either Hurstbridge and South Morang. And since our network is radial, a lot more people are doing cross-trips than you may think. Many people change at Footscray from the Werribee line to get to Sunshine for example.

South Yarra interchange is different for Metro Tunnel since there is a lack of room involving expensive purchases of land. Clifton Hill is much easier to create an interchange and improving the entrances there at the same time.
James974
Tunnel would need to start after Northcote to avoid sharp curve and be deep enough to go under Merri Creek.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
About Rushall, remove the station, its not like the stations are not in walking distance. The curve and bend is a hazard so its best to reroute the railway underground as proposed by Doncaster rail study team.
James974
The South Morang line separation shown in the PTV Doncaster Rail Study You Tube clip seems silly to me and I agree that it should go underground from just after Merri station and skip Rushall and Clifton Hill altogether.

Another interesting thing is that Victoria Park Station seems to be missing from the video, I hope they are not trying to tell us something!

Now here's one out of left field for you.

I catch a couple of Metro services per week to and from Vic Park. The stations along the corridor from Vic Park to Jolimont are EXTREMELY busy and many passengers have to wait while full trains stop and go in the peak. Demand at these stations is set to grow at a rapid rate due to a huge amount of apartment construction going on in the inner city, particularly in Collingwood and Abbotsford.

So why not run South Morang and Hurstbridge lines into Metro 2 tunnel with a new underground station near Rushall.

Then re-instate the old Inner Circle line from Rushall to connect with the Upfield line and run into the city via North Melbourne and Jolimont. South Morang and Hurstbridge line Pax for Clifton Hill > Jolimont could then change at Rushall and would also be able to head in the other direction towards North Melbourne.

Doncaster Rail could then use the corridor from Vic Park to Flinders Street, sharing with the Inner Circle services which would also service pax from Fitzroy and Carlton North via rebuilt stations there.

I can hear the NIMBYs shifting in their chairs already!

BG
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

About Rushall, remove the station, its not like the stations are not in walking distance. The curve and bend is a hazard so its best to reroute the railway underground as proposed by Doncaster rail study team.
The South Morang line separation shown in the PTV Doncaster Rail Study You Tube clip seems silly to me and I agree that it should go underground from just after Merri station and skip Rushall and Clifton Hill altogether.

Another interesting thing is that Victoria Park Station seems to be missing from the video, I hope they are not trying to tell us something!

Now here's one out of left field for you.

I catch a couple of Metro services per week to and from Vic Park. The stations along the corridor from Vic Park to Jolimont are EXTREMELY busy and many passengers have to wait while full trains stop and go in the peak. Demand at these stations is set to grow at a rapid rate due to a huge amount of apartment construction going on in the inner city, particularly in Collingwood and Abbotsford.

So why not run South Morang and Hurstbridge lines into Metro 2 tunnel with a new underground station near Rushall.

Then re-instate the old Inner Circle line from Rushall to connect with the Upfield line and run into the city via North Melbourne and Jolimont. South Morang and Hurstbridge line Pax for Clifton Hill > Jolimont could then change at Rushall and would also be able to head in the other direction towards North Melbourne.

Doncaster Rail could then use the corridor from Vic Park to Flinders Street, sharing with the Inner Circle services which would also service pax from Fitzroy and Carlton North via rebuilt stations there.

I can hear the NIMBYs shifting in their chairs already!

BG
BrentonGolding
Mernda will need the full 24tph, Hurstbridge/Doncaster only need 12 each. That's assuming Doncaster is built, if not plenty of track space for Clifton Hill starting trains into City.
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

The portal could be on the south side of the current bridge near Merri with the existing alignment re-worked to provide access to the workshops. Rushall is obviously closed, with a replacement station in the form of Fitzroy nearby.
  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

The proposed maps are very interesting.
But in my view often there are too many new stations proposed.
I think new stations should be spaced about 2kms - 2.5kms apart, minimum.
If someone has a scientific study showing what the ideal distance is between train stations, please share it.
We aren't living in the 19th Century any more, one example is Westgarth - Alphington. They are too close together.

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