Clyde extension should not wait 10-15 years to get built

 
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
We've just had a state election here, NSW are about to go to theres. I'm assuming Labor is in Watch and Wait mode to see where they need to target money to get into Government.

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  ptvcommuter Train Controller

We've just had a state election here, NSW are about to go to theres. I'm assuming Labor is in Watch and Wait mode to see where they need to target money to get into Government.
TOQ-1


Hotham, La Trobe and Chisholm are marginal seats and could swing either way. What Shorten should do is  announce an extension to Clyde and have Rowville Rail going via Chadstone and Alamein.

There’s already nearly 500 Million on the table to do the Rowville Rail and the Cranbourne duplication work/planning for Clyde is being done by the Andrews Victorian government. Labor will be in watch and wait mode, I’d say there will be announcements for Queensland freight from Shorten and hopefully some promises for Victoria
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
What about Clunes?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Or My house as BG suggested
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

We've just had a state election here, NSW are about to go to theres. I'm assuming Labor is in Watch and Wait mode to see where they need to target money to get into Government.


Hotham, La Trobe and Chisholm are marginal seats and could swing either way. What Shorten should do is  announce an extension to Clyde and have Rowville Rail going via Chadstone and Alamein.

There’s already nearly 500 Million on the table to do the Rowville Rail and the Cranbourne duplication work/planning for Clyde is being done by the Andrews Victorian government. Labor will be in watch and wait mode, I’d say there will be announcements for Queensland freight from Shorten and hopefully some promises for Victoria
ptvcommuter
Correction: Rowville LIGHT Rail running from Caulfield - Rowville via Chadstone/Monash is being done by the Andrews Victorian State Government.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
We've just had a state election here, NSW are about to go to theres. I'm assuming Labor is in Watch and Wait mode to see where they need to target money to get into Government.


Hotham, La Trobe and Chisholm are marginal seats and could swing either way. What Shorten should do is  announce an extension to Clyde and have Rowville Rail going via Chadstone and Alamein.

There’s already nearly 500 Million on the table to do the Rowville Rail and the Cranbourne duplication work/planning for Clyde is being done by the Andrews Victorian government. Labor will be in watch and wait mode, I’d say there will be announcements for Queensland freight from Shorten and hopefully some promises for Victoria
ptvcommuter
Don't confuse State and Federal responsibilities.  Shorten may well be in favour, and willing to provide funding, but it's not up to him to make that kind of announcement.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity

Supports Dandenong quadding. Doesn't support Wyndham Vale/Melton Quadding on another post. Doesn't believe the west deserves a segregated metro services too. You can't have it both ways.

Express Gippsland services, but declines express services for Geelong and Ballarat, very questionable indeed.
True Believers
Believe it or not, but different situations call for different solutions.

Express SG tracks to Dandenong, potentially serving Frankston/MornPen, Cranbourne, Pakenham and the Latrobe Valley, both passenger and freight, are far more justifiable than express tracks from Melton to Sunshine to save a couple of minutes on an hourly Ballarat service.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

But how much more will they cost? I can't image the quadruplication of the Melton line costing that much. An express line for the east would cost far more.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

But how much more will they cost? I can't image the quadruplication of the Melton line costing that much. An express line for the east would cost far more.
reubstar6
Viaducts down Dandenong Rd and Eastlink from Caulfield to Yarraman would be prohibitively expensive, $1B max.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The current Ballarat Line upgrade is $557 million.

I could see quadding to Melton costing similar, with
- grade separated junction at Sunshine
- Possible changes needed to LX removals that are going to happen
- Flyover at Deer Park West Junction
- Changes to all the stations between Sunshine and Melton.


I don't think Quadding stacks up on its own - however quadding to Wyndham Vale would be good if it also added all the infill stations between Deer Park and Wyndham Vale. If you can get Vlocities running at the speeds they are capable of, you end up with a more efficient system and we don't need to keep building one a month to keep up with suburban growth.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Melton quad has provisions with the current stations being built so it isn't too hard, as does WV. It would need stations built at Mt Atkinson and Melton South

The WV line will also need new stations built at Sayers Rd, Davis Rd, Truganina, Derimut and Ravenhall.


Caulfield-Dandenong quadding is needed on its own now, adding the Mornington services justifies it even more.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner


Supports Dandenong quadding. Doesn't support Wyndham Vale/Melton Quadding on another post. Doesn't believe the west deserves a segregated metro services too. You can't have it both ways.

Express Gippsland services, but declines express services for Geelong and Ballarat, very questionable indeed.Believe it or not, but different situations call for different solutions.

Express SG tracks to Dandenong, potentially serving Frankston/MornPen, Cranbourne, Pakenham and the Latrobe Valley, both passenger and freight, are far more justifiable than express tracks from Melton to Sunshine to save a couple of minutes on an hourly Ballarat service.
ZH836301
A few points you have to consider, first is potentially more stations would be added along the Melton and the RRL route and more trains would need to run through when the area eventually develops. Yes it may only save a couple minutes right now.
But 10-15 years down the track, it will be more of an issue. As the Werribee line became more busy due to the developments in the west, the regional trains were diverted cause it became an issue there, as metro and regional trains were conflicting each other. Suburban rail loop is going through there too. Also much more cheaper than the Dandenong quadding, so it would be easier to implement.

SG is for freight only. If you made it dual gauge, then sure you could do easily could help freight lines, but same can be said if it was done in the west.

As for cost the south eastern rail quad is more expensive, but has similiar potential as the western side having quadruplication.

Both are needed around the same time. 10-15 years time. Although I expect the south eastern rail quad may take a little longer, perhaps done in 20 years time.
  John E Locomotive Driver

Melton quad has provisions with the current stations being built so it isn't too hard, as does WV. It would need stations built at Mt Atkinson and Melton South

The WV line will also need new stations built at Sayers Rd, Davis Rd, Truganina, Derimut and Ravenhall.


Caulfield-Dandenong quadding is needed on its own now, adding the Mornington services justifies it even more.
ptvcommuter
A key question that needs to be answered with the Caufield quadding proposition is are you trying to add more capacity or just a quicker journey for Gippsland pax and pax who board before Dandenong.

Quadding Dandenong to Caulfield is still going to be very expensive and disruptive especially from Oakleigh to Caulfield and won't add any capacity. That's why I think "Quadding" should be staged.

Next 10 years: For a relatively cheap amount they should quad from Dandenong to just past Sandown Park, which allows the Gippsland & some Pakenham services to overtake the stopping all stations service and save some time. Rough total cost $500M

Long Term 20 years (Crazy Proposition):  Continue Qaudding to Westhall and turn the line towards Monash Clayton - Chadstone shopping centre then turn towards St Kilda. You could have a station at Balaclava road intersecting with the Sandringham line. The St Kilda station would be near Fitzroy and Canterbury Road then tunnel/viaduct towards underground Southern Cross Station platforms, which will joins up to the Wyndham Vale/Melton lines. Total Tunneling likely to be 22km and total cost is likely to be close to $13 Billion.
This maybe a better long term solutions because it opens up
new travel routes that simple Quadding from Springvale to Caulfield does not and adds capacity to the network.
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
Quadruplication from Dandenong to Oakeigh is still a "relatively" easy option with a reasonable amount of room in the corridor. Caulfield to Oakleigh is the problem and, probably, always has been due to the close-to-the-line build up that was allowed along that part of the line.
With a distance of about 5km between Caulfield and Oakleigh stations not quadruplicating in the short term might not be that much of a problem if the rest of the length, to Dandenong, is done sooner than later.

Neil
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
A few points you have to consider..
True Believers
I've already considered all points, including the most important one everybody loves to ignore - money.

The expense of building quad track for a train or two an hour is completely unjustifiable.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

That's if you look at the situation currently 1-2 trains an hour for Ballarat and at best 3 trains an hour for Geelong.

If you read what I said in 10-15 years time this would increase and eventually you'd have enough train per hour on both lines to consider at the very least the section between Deer Park and Sunshine.

Also considering the electrifying those corridors means the delays on the Ballarat and Geelong line would significantly increase.

You haven't considered that this cost of doing the western section is much cheaper, why not do it when the land is already available.

Eastern half can't be done for freight and vline they run on different gauges. You'd have it go for either the expensive Dual gauge or pick which one you'd prefer to seperate: freight or passenger regional trains
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

A few points you have to consider..
I've already considered all points...
ZH836301
Shut down Railpage, folks, no point discussing anything now.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Eastern half can't be done for freight and vline they run on different gauges. You'd have it go for either the expensive Dual gauge or pick which one you'd prefer to seperate: freight or passenger regional trains
True Believers
This is why the network is a shambles - illogical impositions such as this and 'all trains must run through FSS'.

The solution?  Convert it to SG - hardly revolutionary.  As sectorisation is implemented all regional routes should go that way.


If you read what I said in 10-15 years time this would increase and eventually you'd have enough train per hour on both lines to consider at the very least the section between Deer Park and Sunshine.
True Believers

With three track pairs towards the city from Sunshine, the best option at least expense is:

*Sunbury - Metro
*Ballarat/Melton & Wyndham - Commuter/RER
*Airport/Bendigo & Seymour/Northeast - Commuter?RER & Regional

If Ballarat services are frequent enough to justify express trackwork, then they also become too frequent to combine with services coming from Keilor Park.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
That's if you look at the situation currently 1-2 trains an hour for Ballarat and at best 3 trains an hour for Geelong.

If you read what I said in 10-15 years time this would increase and eventually you'd have enough train per hour on both lines to consider at the very least the section between Deer Park and Sunshine.

Also considering the electrifying those corridors means the delays on the Ballarat and Geelong line would significantly increase.

You haven't considered that this cost of doing the western section is much cheaper, why not do it when the land is already available.

Eastern half can't be done for freight and vline they run on different gauges. You'd have it go for either the expensive Dual gauge or pick which one you'd prefer to seperate: freight or passenger regional trains
True Believers
You do realise there is a such thing as BG freight, right?
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
A few points you have to consider..
I've already considered all points, including the most important one everybody loves to ignore - money.

The expense of building quad track for a train or two an hour is completely unjustifiable.
ZH836301

Sydney is approaching this problem with a metro underground which ultimately Melbourne needs to do as Melbourne is growing faster than Sydney.  Problem is we keep thinking short term and we are always worried about money which should not be the main focus.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

That's if you look at the situation currently 1-2 trains an hour for Ballarat and at best 3 trains an hour for Geelong.

If you read what I said in 10-15 years time this would increase and eventually you'd have enough train per hour on both lines to consider at the very least the section between Deer Park and Sunshine.

Also considering the electrifying those corridors means the delays on the Ballarat and Geelong line would significantly increase.

You haven't considered that this cost of doing the western section is much cheaper, why not do it when the land is already available.

Eastern half can't be done for freight and vline they run on different gauges. You'd have it go for either the expensive Dual gauge or pick which one you'd prefer to seperate: freight or passenger regional trains
You do realise there is a such thing as BG freight, right?
railblogger
Yeah I thought most freight used SG in Victoria. Sorry I'm not too familiar with the freight corridors in Victoria. Maybe I've made a mistake on that part of the argument. Do correct me if I've made a mistake.

Anyways does any BG freight run through Melton? And I heard BG freight used RRL a few times as well.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Yeah I thought most freight used SG in Victoria. Sorry I'm not too familiar with the freight corridors in Victoria. Maybe I've made a mistake on that part of the argument. Do correct me if I've made a mistake.

Anyways does any BG freight run through Melton? And I heard BG freight used RRL a few times as well.
True Believers
When people talk about Freight to the East they're talking about (primarily) Long Island Steel which runs on BG between Hastings to Frankston to Flinders St and then out West. A new route would take it via Dandenong on tracks shared with Express services (metro and VLine).

There is also some additional freight which runs down to Gippsland, but again, both rail corridors are quite busy so it makes freight unviable at times. Opening up more paths would probably lead to an increase.
  ptvcommuter Train Controller

Think Clyde should be announced as part of a huge South Eastern Rail Project. It would cost around 5-6 Billion but reap immense benefits for travel and freight in Melbourne and Regional Victoria. Similar to the Western Rail Plan, it would involve

- Caulfield To South Yarra Quadruplication, using elevated allignment most of the way
- Extension to Clyde
- New Rail Link between Frankston and Dandenong, built above ground with minimal tunnelling
- New Rail Line To Mornington with huge Park and ride as well as bus services to the Peninsula
- Returning Rail to Wonthaggi and Inverloch via Leongatha
- Stony Point Line Upgarde with passing loops, platform and station upgrades and new, faster tracks
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Think Clyde should be announced as part of a huge South Eastern Rail Project. It would cost around 5-6 Billion but reap immense benefits for travel and freight in Melbourne and Regional Victoria. Similar to the Western Rail Plan, it would involve

- Caulfield To South Yarra Quadruplication, using elevated allignment most of the way
- Extension to Clyde
- New Rail Link between Frankston and Dandenong, built above ground with minimal tunnelling
- New Rail Line To Mornington with huge Park and ride as well as bus services to the Peninsula
- Returning Rail to Wonthaggi and Inverloch via Leongatha
- Stony Point Line Upgarde with passing loops, platform and station upgrades and new, faster tracks
ptvcommuter
All pushed through double track between Caulfield and Dandenong? Makes no sense.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
Think Clyde should be announced as part of a huge South Eastern Rail Project. It would cost around 5-6 Billion but reap immense benefits for travel and freight in Melbourne and Regional Victoria. Similar to the Western Rail Plan, it would involve

- Caulfield To South Yarra Quadruplication, using elevated allignment most of the way
- Extension to Clyde
- New Rail Link between Frankston and Dandenong, built above ground with minimal tunnelling
- New Rail Line To Mornington with huge Park and ride as well as bus services to the Peninsula
- Returning Rail to Wonthaggi and Inverloch via Leongatha
- Stony Point Line Upgarde with passing loops, platform and station upgrades and new, faster tracks
All pushed through double track between Caulfield and Dandenong? Makes no sense.
John.Z
@john.Z , I think PTV is thinking more laterally.
The Frankston-Dandy is so that all the overloaded dandy services can go to the city via Frankie.

Frankston line can handle it.
wouldn't cost much
Somebody
cheers
John:lol:

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