Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia

Stop tring to put every train in victoria through southern cross. lets say country trains S and everything else flinders st and flagstaff.Have you ever tried to enter sc at peakhour? the footpaths just arent big enough.


Engineeringlogic

The metro Tunnel project will create a hub outside of the Spencer and FLinders Street hubs.  I agree that Sunshine needs to become a bigger interchange but this was not not done properly in the build only a few years ago.  We need Standard gauge interchange and ability for passengers to connect with the airport line which my not need a set of additional platforms.

With some level crossing removals around Sunshine and the Geelong Components,  why could we not have 200 km/h running between say Lara and Deer Park with express tracks being added to the RRL?

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  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

The Geelong Line should definitely be put through Metro 2 to Southern Cross. It terms of interchanges, I would push for the following:
  • Manor station (Werribee services extended to here allow with electrified Wyndham Vale local services)
  • Lara for heavy rail to Avalon. The Wyndham Vale local services could be extended here. If the budget is too small, light rail will suffice in the short term.
  • Newport (Interchange with Werribee line and Altona/Williamstown line
Assuming the maximum amount of stations from Geelong to the city are North Geelong, North Shore, Corio, Lara, Little River, Manor and Newport before Southern Cross, you could have a range of stopping all stations, express and limited express services. They don't really need to stop at Lara or Little River if the Avalon line serves those stations.
So...
If you want to go from Geelong to Southern Cross as is the most common journey, you get a fast, 200-250kph train (depending on costs) to the city or a stopping all stations V/locity also from Geelong. Small loops could be provided at stations for the express trains to overtake.
If you're heading to the (Tullamarine) airport, go to Manor, change for a Wyndham Vale service, then change at Sunshine for an airport service.
If you're going to Avalon change at Manor for a connecting service.
If you're going to any other station on the line then catch the V/locity.

There is no need for Geelong line trains to go directly to the airport. A Metro service should be the only train serving the airport for customers in Melbourne and anywhere but the North. Bendigo and Seymour lines will go via the airport, but should be pick up/drop off only, unless in the off peak there is capacity available (by the time this grand plan happens surely technology will have been implemented that can track precise passenger numbers on each train).
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
If, in the unlikely event that Fairfax publications go belly-up, there's always the ABC as the other provider of broadsheet standard news.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Fairfax will maintain its online presence, but I fear for the future of its printed newspapers.  Once upon a time, every second person on the train would be reading a newspaper on their way to work, but now it is all "devices", and the kiosk at my local station doesn't even sell newspapers any more.  The price of the Age seems to go up yet again with depressing frequency, and my newsagent says every time this happens, his sales of the Age fall away even further.  He really fears that sooner or later he will not be selling the Age any more.

As for the ABC:  
  • It is being continually, progressively and comprehensively "dumbed down", even in its news and current affairs programs,
  • Every year sees yet another cut to its funding,  further limiting its ability to deliver quality news,
  • Some conservative elements want to sell it off anyway, which is a real worry.  Who or what would buy it, and what would they do to it?    
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
I agree that Sunshine needs to become a bigger interchange but this was not not done properly in the build only a few years ago.  We need Standard gauge interchange and ability for passengers to connect with the airport line which my not need a set of additional platforms.

bevans
You do realise that everything that was done at Sunshine was done with the full involvement of both V/Line and CountryLink/Transport for NSW?

They were both asked if they wanted a Standard Gauge connection at Sunshine Station at the time or even in the future, and both stated that the Broadmeadows connection was best suited to their needs at the time and into the future.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

They were both asked if they wanted a Standard Gauge connection at Sunshine Station at the time or even in the future, and both stated that the Broadmeadows connection was best suited to their needs at the time and into the future.
Jack Le Lievre

Both entities were looking at the short to medium term and would NOT have been figuring, back in 2006 any future plans to construct heavy rail to the airport.

As things stand at present, there's an excellent link from NE trains to the airport via Broadmeadows station and the frequent 901 bus at no additional charge, unlike the suckers who pay $19.00+ each way to use the Skybus from SCS.

Mike.
  Jack Le Lievre Assistant Commissioner

Location: Moolap Station, Vic
The Geelong Line should definitely be put through Metro 2 to Southern Cross. It terms of interchanges, I would push for the following:
  • Manor station (Werribee services extended to here allow with electrified Wyndham Vale local services)
  • Lara for heavy rail to Avalon. The Wyndham Vale local services could be extended here. If the budget is too small, light rail will suffice in the short term.
  • Newport (Interchange with Werribee line and Altona/Williamstown line.
reubstar6
As has been pointed out, Metro 2 will not be able to accommodate any Geelong Line Services. There is no room to add any more Tracks, as there are these big things called High-Pressure Gas, AvGas(Aviation Fuel), and Oil Pipelines which can't be moved without a hell of a lot of fuss from the Owner, the Regulator, plus a hell of a lot of cash, and I am talking about Tens of Billions of Dollars. It was hard enough to get the High-Pressure Gas, and AvGas(Aviation Fuel) Lines moved for the RRL around Sunshine.

Hell SCT can't get a small little bridge built across the Pipelines, so that they can access their Terminal from the North and hence why there are the Three Deadends including Pointwork and Signals at Maidstone St, Altona.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

If V Line thought it could manage  high speed rail, I'd be like the famous Sam Goldwyn: "Include me out". The very thought of one of their many celebrated "Track Faults" or "Train Faults" at 200-plus km/h, would give the thinking man a severe attack of the Wobbling Abdabs,
Valvegear
Given V/Line's performance managing the Murray Basin work and particularly Ararat - Maryborough, the thought of them managing any HS infrastructure is downright scary! Shocked
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

What is with peoples fascination with having the Geelong line run back through Newport and then through METRO 2?

Besides the obvious capacity constraints, why do the folk of Geelong want there cake and eat it too?

You can not have a high speed express service that reaches the Metro network and then sits behind a stopper all the way to the city. Nor can you have express through the suburbs taking up train paths.

You have what you have now, a regional service to SCS (express through RRL) or a a standalone line. I expect Geelong will never get the later. Nor should they. Running express from Lara to Sunshine will shave 10 or so minutes from the timetable, putting the service just under an hour. Very acceptable for a regional centre.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
What is with peoples fascination with having the Geelong line run back through Newport and then through METRO 2?

Besides the obvious capacity constraints, why do the folk of Geelong want there cake and eat it too?

You can not have a high speed express service that reaches the Metro network and then sits behind a stopper all the way to the city. Nor can you have express through the suburbs taking up train paths.

You have what you have now, a regional service to SCS (express through RRL) or a a standalone line. I expect Geelong will never get the later. Nor should they. Running express from Lara to Sunshine will shave 10 or so minutes from the timetable, putting the service just under an hour. Very acceptable for a regional centre.
Lockie91
It's a much shorter route. As has been pointed out before, a hypothetical Geelong service via Metro 2 would be quite fine having the same stopping pattern through the tunnel as Werribee services - SCS/Fishermans Bend/Newport each serve quite large, separate and diverse residential and commercial/industrial catchments that would Geelong commuters would also use. That leaves only (Laughing) the need for passing lanes or full quadruplication between Laverton and Werribee. It's a high-cost, high-benefit route compared to the circuitous RRL route and indeed could be staged as the final route of a multi-decade Geelong HSR project.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

There is a perfectly good rail line that was only built just a few years ago. No need at all to spend billions building a new rail line through a brown fields area, just for the benefit of Geelong.

If I was to use your logic, every rail line in Melbourne should run via METRO 2 so they can access Fishermen’s Bend.

I imagine that Geelong will get an express electrified suburban service via RRL. All stations to Little River then Express - Sunshine - Footscray  SCS. Current running times are between 60 and 70 minutes depending on stopping patterns. If you take out RRL stations and increase the line speed to 200km. You will easily be able get that closer to 45min.

Geelong passengers will be able to interchange at SCS for Fishermen’s Bend, just as the rest of the Metro Lines will.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

As has been pointed out, Metro 2 will not be able to accommodate any Geelong Line Services. There is no room to add any more Tracks, as there are these big things called High-Pressure Gas, AvGas(Aviation Fuel), and Oil Pipelines which can't be moved without a hell of a lot of fuss from the Owner, the Regulator, plus a hell of a lot of cash, and I am talking about Tens of Billions of Dollars. It was hard enough to get the High-Pressure Gas, and AvGas(Aviation Fuel) Lines moved for the RRL around Sunshine. Hell SCT can't get a small little bridge built across the Pipelines, so that they can access their Terminal from the North and hence why there are the Three Deadends including Pointwork and Signals at Maidstone St, Altona.  
Jack Le Lievre
I wasn't aware of these. Where are they? Is it not possible to build underneath the suburban Metro 2 tunnels as is the case in MURL? I'm surprised there's space for two tracks at all. Surely there could be another route.
There is a perfectly good rail line that was only built just a few years ago. No need at all to spend billions building a new rail line through a brown fields area, just for the benefit of Geelong. If I was to use your logic, every rail line in Melbourne should run via METRO 2 so they can access Fishermen’s Bend. I imagine that Geelong will get an express electrified suburban service via RRL. All stations to Little River then Express - Sunshine - Footscray SCS. Current running times are between 60 and 70 minutes depending on stopping patterns. If you take out RRL stations and increase the line speed to 200km. You will easily be able get that closer to 45min. Geelong passengers will be able to interchange at SCS for Fishermen’s Bend, just as the rest of the Metro Lines will.
Lockie91
This is not just for the benefit of Geelong. I'm concerned about the sheer number of services being funnelled into the Sunshine-South Kensington corridor. At the moment there are what, six tracks going all the way through? The Metro pair will benefit from Metro 1, but this capacity will immediately be filled with Melton services once the electrified line inevitably opens. In the airport study, they are sure to realise that having three busy lines converging into one tunnel is not a great idea, as is the case with the current Northern loop. Then there is RRL. It's already almost at capacity, with the Ballarat, Bendigo and Geelong lines using it at the moment. It Seymour services are diverted via the airport as is looking increasingly more likely that will be another line. The other two are dual/standard(?) gauge lines and we all know the trouble slow freight trains cause in Sydney with passenger trains. These are best kept separate. Add in Wyndham Vale local services to the mix and ever increasing demands for more frequent services on all lines and it quickly becomes apparent the need for more lines.
A tunnel would have to be constructed. Sure, it wouldn't be as expensive as an expanded Metro 2, but what I and others on this site are suggesting is that instead Geelong line trains take a quicker, more direct and separate route. I'm not too concerned with Fishermen's Bend, but it always gives the option.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

As part of the RFI airport plan. Bendigo and Seymour services would divert via the airport to onto sunshine with underground platforms then on SCS. All via tunnel.

This clears paths for extra Ballarat & Geelong Services into to SCS. 20 minute services to both regional centres gives us 10TPH well within the 14TPH RRL is capable of. If HCS is installed between Sunshine and SCS on RRL we get up to 30TPH. Fly over at Deer Park for Ballarat Services, Geelong and Ballarat services express Deer Park JNC to Sunshine - Footscray.  

The original PTV 2009 NDP has 6TPH for the airport, this won’t happen anymore. So i suspect that Wyndham Vale will get 6TPH, Melton 6TPH. All stations between Deer Park and Sunshine have a 5 minute service (12TPH) With 24TPH between Sunshine and Domain. (2 minutes)
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Geelong and Ballarat services get to wiz past at 160km on the RRL, while the METRO stoppers do the heavy lifting.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

What is with peoples fascination with having the Geelong line run back through Newport and then through METRO 2?
Lockie91
Metro 2 Tunnel is the missing link in our rail network. Means a faster commute to the west and will seperate the Hurstbridge line with Mernda services. The Geelong line running through Werribee has been around before RRL was built. The idea was to quadruplicate that section. There is plenty of room on the outer sections of the Werribee line to expand to 4 tracks. So it won't be like the Dandenong line where it's much more difficult to implement.

The tricky bit is the tunnelling. Also doesn't quite mean that the Werribee and Geelong services use the same tunnels. They could either use 4 track tunnel between SC and Newport, or have the Werribee line use the existing route and Geelong service using the new tunnel route.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

the missing link in our rail network
James974


Gee that sounds awfully familiar...
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

@James974

Do you want an Express Geelong service or a Stopping all stations Metro Service. Geelong can’t have both. People can’t carry on about the travel time, but also want the service to run via METRO 2 to be stuck behind stoppers.

Geelong will NEVER go via METRO 2, the key word being METRO. High frequency stopping all stations services through built up suburbs.

Geelong will have there desperate Newport connection when West Werribe connection to RRL is completed. I don’t understand what the obsession is with this. I understand the historical connection, but those days are over.

Billions will NOT be spent on putting two more track through the suburbs when RRL was designed to be quadrupled. The bones are there, for a fraction of the cost Geelong can have an express run into SCS. Where passengers can interchange to any METRO service. Wyndham Vale METRO services will solve the overcrowding and reduce travel time for those from Geelong. Returning Geelong to a regional service as it should be.
  blowfish Junior Train Controller

With a long term planning view also, high-speed transit between Geelong and Melbourne should be segmented and efficient. Not to shuffle a large workforce living in Geelong into Melbourne on a daily basis. Geelong needs to be self-sufficient in its own right.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

@blowfish

Completely agree, regional and METRO services must be separated for maximum efficiency. RRL segregated the Geelong line away from METRO services and now some on RP are calling for it to go back to the mess it was before.

Also agree on your second point as well. Geelong does not need to be integrated into the major employment clusters in Melbourne. They can interchange just like everyone else will when METRO 1 is complete and if METRO 2 ever becomes reality.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

Given V/Line's performance managing the Murray Basin work and particularly Ararat - Maryborough, the thought of them managing any HS infrastructure is downright scary! Shocked
Lockspike
OK, upon reflection I'll add a verb. The thought of them managing any HS infrastructure 'build' is downright scary.
When one considers their 160km/h operations, when the trains do run, they generally run well.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Warning: this post is a little rambly, I was throwing thoughts onto the page as I went.

No reason why MM2 can't be 4 track. Two for express and two for stopping.

What this brings up is the problem with VicRail in its current state, the division between Metro and VLine. Needs to be split by stopping pattern and distance.

MM1 not starting at Caulfield is the biggest tragedy, because doing so would have allowed an express path for EXPRESS trains from Pakenham, Warragul (and beyond) and Frankston (and Stony point) from having a dedicated track into the city (Frankston via Dandenong), assuming Caulfield-Dandenong is quadded.

Again, Allow the Geelong line to be extended to Colac, Torquay, Drysdale and allow it to run express into the city, whilst allowing simultaneous stopping services alongside it. Untangle the Altona Loop and allow it to serve the south side of werribee. Express trains can connect at Newport and Lara for those who need to connect between.

This issue is because Melbourne has developed heavily east of the CBD. Ardeer still has a diesel service, and it's only 14.5km from the CBD as the crow flies, whilst Pakenham is 54km as the crow flies, and more so by track distance.

Werribee wasn't duplicated until the 60s and wasn't sparked beyond Newport until the 80s, and was a VLine service before that.

So Geelong isn't trying to have it's cake and eat it too, it is the easiest and busiest path to trial proper express services into the CBD, as it becomes arguably Melbourne's 2nd CBD. Pax from Belgrave wouldn't want an express service that went via Doncaster and Clifton Hill, which is the same as providing Geelong with an express path via Tarneit.

With the proper planning in place, there is ample room for Express services Box Hill, Dandenong, Frankston via Dandenong, Lara, Bacchus Marsh, Sunbury and Wallan into the city. No reason we can't start with Geelong.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

No reason why MM2 can't be 4 track. Two for express and two for stopping.

Why would you want to spend billions extra on tunneling just for express services from Geelong? The track pair already exists via RRL. Yes there is a few extra KMs of distance if you compare to Werribe. This is negated by the extra speed.

You would still need to quad from West Werrbie to Newport another waste of money for nill benefit

An extra track pair will be constructed from the Deer Park JNC to Sunshine to separate Express Geelong services from Wyndham Stoppers. Further increassing speed and reducing running time and overcrowding.

If you refer to PTV 2009 NDP the Altona loop has been separated. This forms part of the Williamstown service to FFS while Werribe services run express from Laverton - Newport - Fishermens Bend - SSC.

SEGREGATION, I will say it again SEGREGATION. This is how great Metro systems around the world work.

Independent stand alone lines with interchange stations. This applies to Regional services as well. Regional services need to be separated from ALL metro services, so they can breeze through the suburbs at 200km/h while METRO does the heavy lifting.

The one thing I do agree with is METRO 1, absolutely disgusting that it does not run to CFD. Staving Gippsland of an independent track pair to SSC.  
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Warning: this post is a little rambly, I was throwing thoughts onto the page as I went.

No reason why MM2 can't be 4 track. Two for express and two for stopping.

What this brings up is the problem with VicRail in its current state, the division between Metro and VLine. Needs to be split by stopping pattern and distance.
John.Z

What....VicRail Question

That's where you lost me....

VicRail as an entity morphed into V/Line...35 years ago Exclamation

Mike.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

When the Tarneit/Wyndam vale line gets electrified for METRO service, an additional track pair will need to be built between ~Lara and Melbourne. May as well do this via Werribee no? There is room for it.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
When the Tarneit/Wyndam vale line gets electrified for METRO service, an additional track pair will need to be built between ~Lara and Melbourne. May as well do this via Werribee no? There is room for it.
John.Z

There would be capacity adjacent the current RRL line from West Werribee and as discussed in the West Werribee Stabling Thread, tracks will be laid connecting Wyndam Vale to Werribee with electrification. This will also (as part of the same project) be continued to Sunshine enabling the running of trains in a so called loop from Sunhine to Newport and vv.

Plans are then to extend the electrification to Geelong from the junction.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

When the Tarneit/Wyndam vale line gets electrified for METRO service, an additional track pair will need to be built between ~Lara and Melbourne. May as well do this via Werribee no? There is room for it.

There would be capacity adjacent the current RRL line from West Werribee and as discussed in the West Werribee Stabling Thread, tracks will be laid connecting Wyndam Vale to Werribee with electrification. This will also (as part of the same project) be continued to Sunshine enabling the running of trains in a so called loop from Sunhine to Newport and vv.

Plans are then to extend the electrification to Geelong from the junction.
bevans
This is exactly what needs to happen; it covers the needs of Geelong commuters (seriously - 1 hour semi-express to Melbourne, once suburban passengers are out of the equation, is exceptional service), the needs of western suburbs pax, and produces increased "network effect". All for minimal cost. Also, it lends itself to a sensible staged approach:

  • Extend Werribee spark line to Wyndham Vale (short-term) - WV becomes pick-up/drop-off for VLP services a la Sunshine. Locals will be restless about increased travel time (say about 15 minutes) but massively reduces strain on VLP to and from Geelong. Also possibly offset by construction of MM2 in medium term, but note none of these projects depend on MM2 for completion. (Intermediate station "Black Forest Road" also a possibility.)
  • Quad and spark to Melton and WV as part of one enormous project (medium-term). Flyovers at Deer Park Junction and Sunshine to completely segregate spark services onto existing Main Suburban through Sunshine and onto Metro Tunnel. 8tph Sunbury, 8tph Melton, 8tph WV or some combination of the above easily achievable.
  • Spark RRL to Geelong 25kv AC and upgrade signalling through metro area (long-term). Easy because of segregated running; just complications at city end. Gradual upgrade to 200km/h between Lara and Sunshine.

Result: no unnecessary funds for ludicrous number of tracks through Sunshine, for "high-speed" to Geelong, for any other dreams, and a better railway.


Meanwhile, airport line is constructed on new track pair, probably underground through Sunshine etc., possibly to Bendigo, possibly to Shepp, possibly BG, possibly SG, who knows, it doesn't affect the Geelong corridor.

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