Geelong high speed rail and electrification

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Didn’t the former government, of which Mr Guy was a minister, cut two critical flyovers from the RRL, spend the money on roads and claim the project was completed under budget?
kitchgp

This is correct.  The project was cut back and the $300m+ was put into the duplication of the Western Highway with poor business case and also into the highway west of Geelong (upgrades) with no business case.  AIR.

The other casualty of this was the removal of the electrification and connection between Werribee to WV.

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  BaysideManny Chief Train Controller

Didn’t the former government, of which Mr Guy was a minister, cut two critical flyovers from the RRL, spend the money on roads and claim the project was completed under budget?

This is correct.  The project was cut back and the $300m+ was put into the duplication of the Western Highway with poor business case and also into the highway west of Geelong (upgrades) with no business case.  AIR.

The other casualty of this was the removal of the electrification and connection between Werribee to WV.
bevans
And that's why Mr. Guy's ridiculous and impossible posturing about Geelong services, means absolutely nothing.

Mannie
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sunbury, Vic
We've got State twats wanting High Speed Geelong Via RRL without any major upgrade to tracks or signalling.

Then the Federal twats spending $4 Billion to run a high speed Geelong service up the A$$ of a Metro Stopper at Newport.

Would be great if they could get together to sync their idiocy.

The current project is a horrendous waste of Money and a Political White Elephant.

While Mr Guy's is on the right track Laughing, he is going to need to sink some money into he's proposal. A new track Pair needs to be constructed from Little River to Sunshine at a minimum, this will allow Geelong an express run from Sunshine too Little River, which is all that is need to shave the timetable down to 40ish minutes. A metro Melton and WV picks up those left in the dust of the high speed train.  

All in all, the biggest problem for ether option is the fact that a city connection needs to be built. Wether this be from Newport to Southern Cross or Sunshine.

Now for a little foam. I believe there is more value in a link from Sunshine into the City, this doesn't only cater for Geelong, but also the Bendigo & Ballarat services. (Seems they are not worthy of a fast train) A lot of the hype around the previous market led proposal was about funnelling as many regional service via the Airport and having a gold plated airport train they could charge and arm and a leg for.

Leave RRL for Regional service, this is already well interfaced with Southern Cross. You could, (foam) run the WV & Melton Metro services via Sunshine into a new tunnel to Maribyrnong with a Station at the former defence site and Highpoint connecting into Flemington and running via Newmarket.(Approx. 8km of underground track) Newmarket and Kensington would need to be rebuilt, along with the LX removals. Use the existing Quad pair from Kensington into North Melbourne with a new platforms 7 & 8 and terminating at Platform 15 & 16 at Southern Cross. This allows Geelong (and those other pesky regional lines) to continue to use the current RRL alignment into the City.

For $15 Billion (MM1 8KM, 4 new $11B) you could have a city connection from Sunshine, a new station at a soon to be massive urban development site, a new station at a major trip generator and a High Speed Geelong Service.

Lets see if Mr Guy comes to his senses and develops a decent election commitment, not just shout Geelong Fast Train in November.

Lockie
  John E Locomotive Driver

Where is the quad track? If there is quad track doesn't it become 2 tracks again, then share with the Upfield line in the northern group?
Your suggestion for a tunnel via highpoint could work if the city loop reconfiguration happens and the craigeburn line goes straight through to the Frankston line.

14 trains p.h. to craigeburn and 10 to Melton or Wyndham Vale. I can't see the Craigeburn line needing more t.p.h.

I like your idea. Don't need to build a new underground station in the city and maximise capacity of existing infrastructure.

Also quicker way to transfer from craigeburn line to sunshine without having to go to north melbourne
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

We have a worthwhile and supportive announcement from Mr. Guy which is certain to make the people of Geelong happy.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/liberal-matthew-guy-says-30-minute-train-trip-between-geelong-and-melbourne-is-a-nobrainer  

I hope this project gets up and of course money has been promised from the federal government for this project which has been ignored by Daniel Andrews.
bevans
Totally incorrect. Feds have committed $ 2 bn to Geelong Fast Rail of which Victorian Government has actioned in partnership with Feds and RPV are designing speccing for express third track 160 kmh bi-di signalling from Up end of laverton to the Down end of Werribee as Stage - 1. Construction to start second half of 2022.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Didn’t the former government, of which Mr Guy was a minister, cut two critical flyovers from the RRL, spend the money on roads and claim the project was completed under budget?
kitchgp
No under current Government  now departed transport bureacrat made a hero of himself by cutting out flyovers at Sunshine and Robinsons Rd Junction to save $ of Commonwealth rail allocated funds which were then diverted to Vicroads.

The most critical deletion being a single track flyover to take the Down Ballarat line over both the Up and Down RRL Geelong lines at Robinsons Road locking in an at grade junction with the most stupid layout out of turnouts and crossovers dictating a maximum speed for majority of trains to 65 kmh instead of 100 kmh double track curve towards Tarneit.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

No under current Government  now departed transport bureacrat made a hero of himself by cutting out flyovers ..........
kuldalai


The line was under test when the Andrews government arrived in November 2014.

It seems rather odd that the BG junction at the southern end, Manor Junction, with little conflicting traffic to or from Werribee, should be grade-separated, yet Deer Park West, the junction with Ballarat, is not. Guess that’s the ARTC’s influence.

A flyover at Deer Park West should be revived.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
We have a worthwhile and supportive announcement from Mr. Guy which is certain to make the people of Geelong happy.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/liberal-matthew-guy-says-30-minute-train-trip-between-geelong-and-melbourne-is-a-nobrainer  

I hope this project gets up and of course money has been promised from the federal government for this project which has been ignored by Daniel Andrews.
Totally incorrect. Feds have committed $ 2 bn to Geelong Fast Rail of which Victorian Government has actioned in partnership with Feds and RPV are designing speccing for express third track 160 kmh bi-di signalling from Up end of laverton to the Down end of Werribee as Stage - 1. Construction to start second half of 2022.
kuldalai

Ok I stand corrected but I was talking about the larger amount of money the federal government made available for higher speed trains or is this it?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

No under current Government  now departed transport bureacrat made a hero of himself by cutting out flyovers ..........


The line was under test when the Andrews government arrived in November 2014.

It seems rather odd that the BG junction at the southern end, Manor Junction, with little conflicting traffic to or from Werribee, should be grade-separated, yet Deer Park West, the junction with Ballarat, is not. Guess that’s the ARTC’s influence.

A flyover at Deer Park West should be revived.
kitchgp
A flyover at Manor Junction was needed to separate the SG from the diverging BG line.
  Lockspike Chief Commissioner

A flyover at Manor Junction was needed to separate the SG from the diverging BG line.
duttonbay
I'm sure if ARTC had countenanced a flat crossing that is what would have happened.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

A flyover at Manor Junction was needed to separate the SG from the diverging BG line.
I'm sure if ARTC had countenanced a flat crossing that is what would have happened.
Lockspike
They have removed two flat crossings in Adelaide in recent years (well, recent for somebody who basically stopped photographing trains in the 1990s). I can't imagine ARTC thinking it would be a good idea - and I am sure VLine would not appreciate holding their Geelong trains for kilometre-long freight trains to cross.
  Tii Chief Train Controller

All in all, the biggest problem for ether option is the fact that a city connection needs to be built. Wether this be from Newport to Southern Cross or Sunshine.

Now for a little foam. I believe there is more value in a link from Sunshine into the City, this doesn't only cater for Geelong, but also the Bendigo & Ballarat services. (Seems they are not worthy of a fast train) A lot of the hype around the previous market led proposal was about funnelling as many regional service via the Airport and having a gold plated airport train they could charge and arm and a leg for.

Leave RRL for Regional service, this is already well interfaced with Southern Cross. You could, (foam) run the WV & Melton Metro services via Sunshine into a new tunnel to Maribyrnong with a Station at the former defence site and Highpoint connecting into Flemington and running via Newmarket.(Approx. 8km of underground track) Newmarket and Kensington would need to be rebuilt, along with the LX removals. Use the existing Quad pair from Kensington into North Melbourne with a new platforms 7 & 8 and terminating at Platform 15 & 16 at Southern Cross. This allows Geelong (and those other pesky regional lines) to continue to use the current RRL alignment into the City.
Lockie91
I like the thinking. Definitely keep the RRL for regional as intended and work out how to get Melton and WV both functional and open up new services in the missing elements in inner west. Have to agree the Fast rail thing money could be better used with wider benefit that would give a modest speed increase to Geelong and help the overall metro service coverage. Foam away.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

A flyover at Manor Junction was needed to separate the SG from the diverging BG line.
I'm sure if ARTC had countenanced a flat crossing that is what would have happened.
They have removed two flat crossings in Adelaide in recent years (well, recent for somebody who basically stopped photographing trains in the 1990s). I can't imagine ARTC thinking it would be a good idea - and I am sure VLine would not appreciate holding their Geelong trains for kilometre-long freight trains to cross.
duttonbay
It's more that ARTC are afraid of electricity.

They were fine with the two SG/BG crossings in Adelaide until the Noarlunga/Seaford line electrification was confirmed.

There was not much of a state/ARTC dispute to be had as two different federal governments (Gillard and Turnbull) funded both projects without requiring ARTC spend any of their own money.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sunbury, Vic
Where is the quad track? If there is quad track doesn't it become 2 tracks again, then share with the Upfield line in the northern group?
Your suggestion for a tunnel via highpoint could work if the city loop reconfiguration happens and the craigeburn line goes straight through to the Frankston line.

14 trains p.h. to craigeburn and 10 to Melton or Wyndham Vale. I can't see the Craigeburn line needing more t.p.h.

I like your idea. Don't need to build a new underground station in the city and maximise capacity of existing infrastructure.

Also quicker way to transfer from craigeburn line to sunshine without having to go to north melbourne
John E

There is Quad track from Kensington that current Flemington services use when the line is running. This track pair uses the upper viaduct to access platforms 5 & 6 at North Melbourne. There would already be a free track pair here (currently in use by RRL to SCS 15 & 16), just some track reconfiguration here is all that is needed if you didn't want to build new platforms at North Melbourne.

Post MM1 Craigieburn and Upfield get there own platforms at North Melbourne as Sunbury as been through routed to Pakenham. The reaming Northern Group share the 24 TPH in the Northern Loop, 12TPH each. Werribee has exclusive use of 5&6 and North Melbourne.
Melton and WV have exclusive use of 15&16 at SCS, again 24TPH, 12 each.

Geelong gets sped up on the existing RRL alignment.

I like the thinking. Definitely keep the RRL for regional as intended and work out how to get Melton and WV both functional and open up new services in the missing elements in inner west. Have to agree the Fast rail thing money could be better used with wider benefit that would give a modest speed increase to Geelong and help the overall metro service coverage. Foam away.
Tii

$4B that is being spent on stage one could get you half a tunnel and solve one of Melbournes biggest transport back holes. Issues with tunnels and such is the massive cost and when they only go from A to B and solve one problem the cost never adds up. They need to also connect new trip generators to allow the government to claw back some of the cost through value capture.

This was the issue with the half baked Airport Tunnel, $9B was never going to add up just going from A to B. Case in point here being SRL every new station is a Billion worth of new development the government can tax to recover cost. This is again the issue with GFR, there is already a regular train link. How much value is being added by speed up a train a few minutes?

Lockie
  John E Locomotive Driver

For the airport rail tunnel plan I am curious what platform/s Southern Cross the airport trains (and regional) would go to. Were they going to build underground platforms or somehow squeeze them in somewhere else?

I am pretty sure Southern Cross is leased privately until 2036 so redeveloping before then maybe problematic.

Eventually if Metro 2 goes through Southern Cross, this would be a good excuse to 'blow' things up & make some wholesale changes.

Having multiple lines out of operation at Southern Cross would be extremely disruptive. I am no expert but this is where the city loop reconfiguration may help because you could run a few lines through the loop without going through SC e.g start with a portal on the east side so Upfield & Craigeburn go through Frankston and Sandringham.
Furthermore some trains from the east could terminate at Flinders St, from the west maybe North Melbourne and of course Metro 1 would run as normal.
  Tii Chief Train Controller

Where is the quad track? If there is quad track doesn't it become 2 tracks again, then share with the Upfield line in the northern group?
Your suggestion for a tunnel via highpoint could work if the city loop reconfiguration happens and the craigeburn line goes straight through to the Frankston line.

14 trains p.h. to craigeburn and 10 to Melton or Wyndham Vale. I can't see the Craigeburn line needing more t.p.h.

I like your idea. Don't need to build a new underground station in the city and maximise capacity of existing infrastructure.

Also quicker way to transfer from craigeburn line to sunshine without having to go to north melbourne

There is Quad track from Kensington that current Flemington services use when the line is running. This track pair uses the upper viaduct to access platforms 5 & 6 at North Melbourne. There would already be a free track pair here (currently in use by RRL to SCS 15 & 16), just some track reconfiguration here is all that is needed if you didn't want to build new platforms at North Melbourne.

Post MM1 Craigieburn and Upfield get there own platforms at North Melbourne as Sunbury as been through routed to Pakenham. The reaming Northern Group share the 24 TPH in the Northern Loop, 12TPH each. Werribee has exclusive use of 5&6 and North Melbourne.
Melton and WV have exclusive use of 15&16 at SCS, again 24TPH, 12 each.

Geelong gets sped up on the existing RRL alignment.

I like the thinking. Definitely keep the RRL for regional as intended and work out how to get Melton and WV both functional and open up new services in the missing elements in inner west. Have to agree the Fast rail thing money could be better used with wider benefit that would give a modest speed increase to Geelong and help the overall metro service coverage. Foam away.

$4B that is being spent on stage one could get you half a tunnel and solve one of Melbournes biggest transport back holes. Issues with tunnels and such is the massive cost and when they only go from A to B and solve one problem the cost never adds up. They need to also connect new trip generators to allow the government to claw back some of the cost through value capture.

This was the issue with the half baked Airport Tunnel, $9B was never going to add up just going from A to B. Case in point here being SRL every new station is a Billion worth of new development the government can tax to recover cost. This is again the issue with GFR, there is already a regular train link. How much value is being added by speed up a train a few minutes?

Lockie
Lockie91
Mmm, maybe that will be thrown onto the table for the 2026 election?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
In light of Sydney to Newcastle announcement by albo what is the status of the money the Lind have provided Victoria for the Geelong upgrade ?

Where is the project at ?
  Carnot Minister for Railways

In light of Sydney to Newcastle announcement by albo what is the status of the money the Lind have provided Victoria for the Geelong upgrade ?

Where is the project at ?
freightgate
https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/fast-rail-to-geelong

Maybe an early 2023 start, although the State Govt has only committed $150 million, not $2 billion thus far.  Probably something we'll hear more about leading up to the 2022 Fed and State elections....
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The new tracks should be electrified so as to allow connection to an electrified Geelong and a connection to wyndhamvale from Werribee.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

They have removed two flat crossings in Adelaide in recent years (well, recent for somebody who basically stopped photographing trains in the 1990s). I can't imagine ARTC thinking it would be a good idea - and I am sure VLine would not appreciate holding their Geelong trains for kilometre-long freight trains to cross.
duttonbay
Issues in Adelaide were train length as well as interaction. Interstate used to start at the junction and trains on the OH line could be held for quite a while. The train length held blocked one level crossing and the next level crossing at Torrens Road limited the length of AdMels to 1500m. Now there is no interaction and ARTC trains race through with no impact on Outer Harbor services. A similar conflict at Goodwood was for the same reason and prevented intermodals blocking the Noarlunga later Seaford line.
Incidentally there is still a diamond crossing between the DIRN and Gawler lines at Kewdale with the highest contact height in Australia on 25kV, though, as far as I know, no double stacked traffic has ever used it!
  Yappo Train Controller

In light of Sydney to Newcastle announcement by albo what is the status of the money the Lind have provided Victoria for the Geelong upgrade ?

Where is the project at ?
https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/fast-rail-to-geelong

Maybe an early 2023 start, although the State Govt has only committed $150 million, not $2 billion thus far.  Probably something we'll hear more about leading up to the 2022 Fed and State elections....
Carnot
When the technical advisory contract was awarded 3 weeks ago to AGP it was suggested that work would indeed start early next year. AGP has worked on LXRP projects, Syd metro and Cross River Rail.

Seems obvious that the state govt would want to be able to state at the Nov election that the first stage of works are about to begin in early 2023.

https://infrastructurepipeline.org/project/fast-rail-to-geelong
  Tii Chief Train Controller

Yep add that detail announcement to the State election later in the year. Why does the extra track only go from Werribee to Laverton and not onward at least until just before Newport - a few minutes shaved here and there is the aim isn't it and if it's away from the metro tracks then even better through that corridor. There are 2 level crossings before New port I think but by then the Velocity will have slowed to snails pace to rejoin metro tracks.
  BaysideManny Chief Train Controller

Yep add that detail announcement to the State election later in the year. Why does the extra track only go from Werribee to Laverton and not onward at least until just before Newport - a few minutes shaved here and there is the aim isn't it and if it's away from the metro tracks then even better through that corridor. There are 2 level crossings before New port I think but by then the Velocity will have slowed to snails pace to rejoin metro tracks.
Tii
The Geelong Fast Rail project is a ridiculous idea and is a waste of money. It is just a thought bubble from the Morrison Government in a feeble attempt to curry favour with a few marginal seats in the Barwon area. For $4 Billion we could have a world class bus network, rehabilitate and electrify the Somerton Link and through to Wallan and build extra HCMT's.

The Newport to Footscray section is a huge bottleneck, which cannot accommodate more tracks without some major demolition. Moreover that Section has stopping all stations services to Williamstown and to Laverton and express services to Werribee. That's 9 trains an hour. Where will the Geelong fasts fit. Without the Melbourne Metro 2 tunnel being built or find a way to reuse the freight corridor from Newport to Sunshine and from Sunshine to Melbourne the Geelong Fast Rail Project should be a non starter.

$4 Billion to shave 15 mins=A colossal waste of money


Mannie
  Tony M. Junior Train Controller

It seems pretty obvious that the current (if largely unspoken) plan is:

a): Use the half-baked Geelong Fast Rail as an excuse to shift at least some Geelong trains back onto the Werribee line, thus enabling the paths on RRL to be devoted entirely to Tarniet / Wyndham Vale / etc passengers. Considering the rate of growth out there and how crowded the existing trains can currently get, this probably makes sense sooner or later.

b): Geelong Fast Rail will once again run slap bang into the Newport-Footscray bottleneck, as those who remember the Geelong peak trains crawling into Melbourne years ago know all too well. This will be a massive downgrade for Geelong services, and no doubt will cause plenty of complaints, leading to...

c): Political pressure to build the tunnel from Newport to Fisherman's Bend as part of MM2. Which presumably other groups in society (mostly real estate developers building in Fisherman's Bend) will also be lobbying for, but will be difficult for a government to build without an obvious public interest case. Which they'll have thanks to the Newport bottleneck.

The downside to all this is a decade or so of increasingly substandard travel for Geelong passengers - probably more as the whole scheme stalls at the MM2 stage every time the Liberals get in and cancel all public transport projects.
  Tii Chief Train Controller

While I agree the whole idea is half baked and only practical with Metro 2 and the money would be better used to get more of the network sorted first, my simple question remains- should the extra single track be extended from Laverton toward Newport ? Or is it that the G trains can rejoin existing track and run at high speed up to Newport at least with some upgrades ?

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