New long-distance V/Line rolling stock

 
  steve195 Train Controller

With the announcement in this year's budget that a revamped long-distance variant of the V/locity DMU will be designed (both SG and BG), it would seem that time is running out (very slowly) on loco-hauled passenger trains in Victoria.*

First of all, this was not mentioned in the 2015 "Rolling Stock Strategy" at all - which makes one wonder why they bothered with printing that at all. The strategy included a new "high capacity regional train" that would be delivered from 2019 onwards, with additional refurbishment of older cars and more V/Locity orders between now and then.
I assume that the "high capacity" trains will be some sort of upgraded VL with 4 cars per set and as many seats crammed in a possible.

As for the new long-distance variant, I propose the following:
  • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).
  • 160km/h operation on RFR lines would cut travel times and hopefully reduce delays on congested sections of track (RRL).
  • I'd like to see first-class retained, but I wouldn't be too upset if they got rid of it.
  • No need for a buffet, a couple of vending machines is enough.
  • Run Shepparton services with 'normal' VL sets, à la Echuca/Ararat/Maryborough - thus long distance would only be to Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Albury and Bairnsdale. Alternatively, an argument could be made for confining VLs to inter-urban services and running the new long-distance trains to Shepparton and Echuca.
  • Rotating seats (like on the XPT) would be nice.
  • Since we live in the 21st century, power points are a must and onboard WiFi should be considered.


Hopefully more comfortable, more reliable and faster trains will encourage more people to travel on long-distance Vline services. (Though equally important in making these services more attractive is speeding them up by removing unnecessary stops at stations that are well served by commuter trains.)

With new trains along with improved infrastructure and (hopefully) better frequencies, there is a huge opportunity to completely revamp the inter-city side of V/Line's business over the next decade.


What are everyone else's ideas for a long-distance VL based design?

*Excluding the Overland and potentially the XPT replacement.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
As SG VLocity's are now a definite going forward...why can't an SG VLocity replace the Overland Question
  woodford Chief Commissioner

With the announcement in this year's budget that a revamped long-distance variant of the V/locity DMU will be designed (both SG and BG), it would seem that time is running out (very slowly) on loco-hauled passenger trains in Victoria.*

First of all, this was not mentioned in the 2015 "Rolling Stock Strategy" at all - which makes one wonder why they bothered with printing that at all. The strategy included a new "high capacity regional train" that would be delivered from 2019 onwards, with additional refurbishment of older cars and more V/Locity orders between now and then.
I assume that the "high capacity" trains will be some sort of upgraded VL with 4 cars per set and as many seats crammed in a possible.

As for the new long-distance variant, I propose the following:
  • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).
  • 160km/h operation on RFR lines would cut travel times and hopefully reduce delays on congested sections of track (RRL).
  • I'd like to see first-class retained, but I wouldn't be too upset if they got rid of it.
  • No need for a buffet, a couple of vending machines is enough.
  • Run Shepparton services with 'normal' VL sets, à la Echuca/Ararat/Maryborough - thus long distance would only be to Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Albury and Bairnsdale. Alternatively, an argument could be made for confining VLs to inter-urban services and running the new long-distance trains to Shepparton and Echuca.
  • Rotating seats (like on the XPT) would be nice.
  • Since we live in the 21st century, power points are a must and onboard WiFi should be considered.


Hopefully more comfortable, more reliable and faster trains will encourage more people to travel on long-distance Vline services. (Though equally important in making these services more attractive is speeding them up by removing unnecessary stops at stations that are well served by commuter trains.)

With new trains along with improved infrastructure and (hopefully) better frequencies, there is a huge opportunity to completely revamp the inter-city side of V/Line's business over the next decade.


What are everyone else's ideas for a long-distance VL based design?

*Excluding the Overland and potentially the XPT replacement.
steve195
steve195 said...........

  • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).


  • No, Such a set will weight of around 280 tons and a wheel rim power of 1900bhp, this is 6.8bhp/ton. A 4 car Nset and an N class loco will weight just over 300 tons and a wheel rim power of just over 2000bhp giving a power to weigh to ratio of 6.7bhp/ton. A VLocity set under normal conditions has a power to weight ratio of 10.5bhp/ton. The higher power to weight ratio's will be required to maintain a decent timetable particularly on hillly lines like Ballarrat, Bendigo and Seymour.

    woodford
      Bogong Chief Commissioner

    Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
    In the past year I've travelled on trains in the UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Poland and Hungary. They all had some sort of power outlets available for customers and most had Wifi included in the price of the ticket.

    In the past 9 days, I've travelled to Macedon by Velocity and Wang by a hybrid N set. No way to recharge my phone or laptop on either of them, although I did see a power point next to the buffet on the N set with a (probably untrue) label "Not suitable for general use".

    Why are we still building trains that don't even have a USB type power outlet for passengers? That's just crazy. Sad
    It's understandable that there are no power outlets on unrefurbished N sets which were built when laptops and mobiles were rare luxuries, but it's insane that no Velocity carriages have them.

    That is seriously third world! Rolling Eyes
      steve195 Train Controller

    As SG VLocity's are now a definite going forward...why can't an SG VLocity replace the Overland Question
    The Vinelander
    Bureaucracy, probably.

    Doesn't the Overland rely on year-by-year funding from the Vic and SA governments? If so, there would be a strong case for V/Line to take over. Especially if it allows them to expand their SG fleet, making it more cost effective. (Efficiencies of scale etc.)




    PS Thanks for crunching the numbers @woodford
      HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

    Location: Route 48
    Why are we still building trains that don't even have a USB type power outlet for passengers?
    Bogong
    Because the Vlocity design essentially predates the smart phone and noone bothered to add them to the requirements for subsequent orders. Nonetheless I 100% agree with the crux of the post...
      tazzer96 Chief Commissioner

    Good Idea in general, but long distance should be 2x2 seating at max.   Agree with running shepparton with regular VL's, but if you are ordering a whole bunch of new rolling stock, the swan hill, echuca, Ararat and Maryborough services should also be run using the new stock, just with unreserved seating.  

    Rotating seats sounds nice, but lets face it, they would break within a year from people messing with them, in the XPT they only get turned by staffed, and sitting backwards isn't a big deal like some of those here make it out to be.
      mikesyd Chief Commissioner

    Location: Lurking
    Quote :  "Since we live in the 21st century, power points are a must and onboard WiFi should be considered."

    I agree on the need for power outlets at each seat.

    WiFi is a problem though - it only takes a few to start using YouTube and the like and the speed is throttled for the rest. A way would have to be worked around it, else don't do it. Most people are using data plans of one kind or another these days.
      kuldalai Chief Commissioner

    With the announcement in this year's budget that a revamped long-distance variant of the V/locity DMU will be designed (both SG and BG), it would seem that time is running out (very slowly) on loco-hauled passenger trains in Victoria.*

    First of all, this was not mentioned in the 2015 "Rolling Stock Strategy" at all - which makes one wonder why they bothered with printing that at all. The strategy included a new "high capacity regional train" that would be delivered from 2019 onwards, with additional refurbishment of older cars and more V/Locity orders between now and then.
    I assume that the "high capacity" trains will be some sort of upgraded VL with 4 cars per set and as many seats crammed in a possible.

    As for the new long-distance variant, I propose the following:
    • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).
    • 160km/h operation on RFR lines would cut travel times and hopefully reduce delays on congested sections of track (RRL).
    • I'd like to see first-class retained, but I wouldn't be too upset if they got rid of it.
    • No need for a buffet, a couple of vending machines is enough.
    • Run Shepparton services with 'normal' VL sets, à la Echuca/Ararat/Maryborough - thus long distance would only be to Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Albury and Bairnsdale. Alternatively, an argument could be made for confining VLs to inter-urban services and running the new long-distance trains to Shepparton and Echuca.
    • Rotating seats (like on the XPT) would be nice.
    • Since we live in the 21st century, power points are a must and onboard WiFi should be considered.


    Hopefully more comfortable, more reliable and faster trains will encourage more people to travel on long-distance Vline services. (Though equally important in making these services more attractive is speeding them up by removing unnecessary stops at stations that are well served by commuter trains.)

    With new trains along with improved infrastructure and (hopefully) better frequencies, there is a huge opportunity to completely revamp the inter-city side of V/Line's business over the next decade.


    What are everyone else's ideas for a long-distance VL based design?

    *Excluding the Overland and potentially the XPT replacement.
    steve195 said...........

  • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).


  • No, Such a set will weight of around 280 tons and a wheel rim power of 1900bhp, this is 6.8bhp/ton. A 4 car Nset and an N class loco will weight just over 300 tons and a wheel rim power of just over 2000bhp giving a power to weigh to ratio of 6.7bhp/ton. A VLocity set under normal conditions has a power to weight ratio of 10.5bhp/ton. The higher power to weight ratio's will be required to maintain a decent timetable particularly on hillly lines like Ballarrat, Bendigo and Seymour.

    woodford
    woodford
    Any new 5 or 6 car Inter City V/Locity trains would be in fixed consists with one non powered trailer car in the 5 or 6 car consist .  Five powering cars still plenty of  hp .
      N463 Locomotive Driver

    Here's my thoughts on possible future long distance V/Locities (and on other peoples ideas as well)....


    Good Idea in general, but long distance should be 2x2 seating at max.
    tazzer96tazzer96

    V/Locity seating is already 2x2




    Rotating seats sounds nice, but lets face it, they would break within a year from people messing with them, in the XPT they only get turned by staffed, and sitting backwards isn't a big deal like some of those here make it out to be.
    tazzer96


    Victoria never seems to have bothered much with rotating seats outside of First class.
    The only Second/Economy class cars with rotating seats that I can think of are the BZ (13 carriages, most of which had the seating replaced with fixed N car seating during the '90's), DRC (4 railmotors, purchased second hand from NSW), and the BCZ cars (ex ACZ cars with seating originally intended for First class, whilst the seating can be rotated, V/Line don't bother to do so).

    Was there any other rotating seating used in Victoria (aside from in First)?


    Agree with running shepparton with regular VL's, but if you are ordering a whole bunch of new rolling stock, the swan hill, echuca, Ararat and Maryborough services should also be run using the new stock, just with unreserved seating.  
    tazzer96


    In the past year I've travelled on trains in the UK, Netherlands, Sweden, Poland and Hungary. They all had some sort of power outlets available for customers and most had Wifi included in the price of the ticket.
    Bogong
    Power outlets would be a good idea. I'm less convinced about Wi-Fi, as most people will have 3G/4G internet (and mobile black spots along many routes is apparently going to be addressed soon/eventually), which alleviates the need for Wi-Fi.

    No way to recharge my phone or laptop on either of them, although I did see a power point next to the buffet on the N set with a (probably untrue) label "Not suitable for general use".
    Bogong
    Someone in insurance, etc probably thought there may be a one in a million chance that a passenger's device would get fried by a freak surge, and legal panicked that they would get sued...
    Seriously though, I've seen heaps of people use the power points in N cars to charge phones or laptops, and I've never heard of anything going wrong because of it.


    As SG VLocity's are now a definite going forward...why can't an SG VLocity replace the Overland Question
    The Vinelander
    Why indeed? Once the new SG trains are running on the NE line, then V/Line have a design, and they also (hopefully) have the necessary maintenance facilities to service a SG fleet of DMU's. Once you've got all that, buying a few extra sets to service the western SG (whether that's the Overland, or some successor service) seems like the logical next step.


    • 160km/h operation on RFR lines would cut travel times and hopefully reduce delays on congested sections of track (RRL).
    steve195
    As all long distance lines except Shepparton and Albury travel for part of the journey on RFR tracks, 160km/h capability would seem a must for new rolling stock design that may end up been used on the broad gauge network.



    • I'd like to see first-class retained, but I wouldn't be too upset if they got rid of it.
    • No need for a buffet, a couple of vending machines is enough.
    steve195
    For long distance services, First class and a buffet should be retained. The buffet serves a wider range of food then could be provided by a vending machine. The buffet staff also provides an additional point of contact for any passengers needing assistance at times when the conductor is otherwise busy.


    Also, any new long distance rollingstock should also have some sort of curtains/blinds/venetians on the windows, there needs to be some way for passengers to shut out the sun when it is shining directly in their window.

    Also some van space (long distance passengers are more likely to travel with a lot of luggage).

    What is going to happen with the level crossings on long distance lines that don't have boom barriers?
    Will they all be upgraded to have boom gates (best but very expensive option), or would it be possible to engineer a cab with sufficient crashworthiness into a DMU design to allow travelling through crossings at over 80km/h?
    Slowing the train to 80km/h at every crossing would surely make the trip take longer then the existing loco hauled service.

    N463
      Nightfire Minister for Railways

    Location: Gippsland
    Looks like they are only funding level crossings upgrades on the Warrnambool and Albury corridors (Bairnsdale too ?) to enable them to take Velocity's at up to 130 km/h, ells a crippling 75 km/h limit would apply ! (Echuca)
      The Vinelander Minister for Railways

    Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
    Why are we still building trains that don't even have a USB type power outlet for passengers?
    Because the Vlocity design essentially predates the smart phone and noone bothered to add them to the requirements for subsequent orders. Nonetheless I 100% agree with the crux of the post...
    HardSleeper

    Yes....something else for the scrotes to vandalise and get away with Exclamation

    Do you think the armrests between the seats break themselves and the etching on the windows and the vandalism and graffiti in the disabled toilets appears...as if by magic..Question

    Mike.
      DalyWaters Chief Commissioner


    WiFi is a problem though - it only takes a few to start using YouTube and the like and the speed is throttled for the rest. A way would have to be worked around it, else don't do it. Most people are using data plans of one kind or another these days.
    mikesyd
    No download problem for Firefly or Skybus buses though.

    Also, Velocities have the Faraday shield effect that makes getting a signal tougher to achieve.  WiFi would be the answer if V/Line maintenance were up to the challenge.
      RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Dubai UAE
    If there are issues with unprotected level crossings, do what QR does for the Cairns Til Train, slow down for the duration of the crossing to 100km/h, then return to line capable speed. Annoying, but not end of world stuff and overall impact is not huge but obviously not ideal.

    With the Velocities for use to replace N-class hauled sets. You want to use the basic platform of the V/locities as this keeps costs down. I don't see the need to have all DMU's powering all the time, surely the engines should operate on as as demand basis.

    Overland agree, its should be converted to Long range V/locity when the time is right.

    Power points, agree not hard, just do it. One per set of seats. Or in this stage and age, as USB outlet

    Don't need rotating seats, the TGV I caught doesn't have.

    Wifi, fairly common in these sorts of environments to throttle the use to text based services and slow photo/internet due to costs and prevention of everyone using the train's wifi to down load smeg.
      steve195 Train Controller

    Also, any new long distance rollingstock should also have some sort of curtains/blinds/venetians on the windows, there needs to be some way for passengers to shut out the sun when it is shining directly in their window.
    N463
    100% agree.

    Also some van space (long distance passengers are more likely to travel with a lot of luggage).
    N463

    Making the luggage racks a bit bigger might be more efficient, though I do appreciate that a separate space can be more convenient for some users.

    What is going to happen with the level crossings on long distance lines that don't have boom barriers?
    Will they all be upgraded to have boom gates (best but very expensive option), or would it be possible to engineer a cab with sufficient crashworthiness into a DMU design to allow travelling through crossings at over 80km/h?
    Slowing the train to 80km/h at every crossing would surely make the trip take longer then the existing loco hauled service.
    N463

    That's the big question. After the current round of upgrades, surely Echuca will be 130km/h. It would seem that Warrnambool, Shepparton and Albury will be upgraded with money in this year's budget.
    Beyond that, a long-term investment in systematically upgrading each line before the new DMUs start running is required.
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    Looks like they are only funding level crossings upgrades on the Warrnambool and Albury corridors (Bairnsdale too ?) to enable them to take Velocity's at up to 130 km/h, ells a crippling 75 km/h limit would apply ! (Echuca)
    Nightfire
    Level crossings on the Albury line are already configured fro 130kph.

    woodford
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    With the announcement in this year's budget that a revamped long-distance variant of the V/locity DMU will be designed (both SG and BG), it would seem that time is running out (very slowly) on loco-hauled passenger trains in Victoria.*

    First of all, this was not mentioned in the 2015 "Rolling Stock Strategy" at all - which makes one wonder why they bothered with printing that at all. The strategy included a new "high capacity regional train" that would be delivered from 2019 onwards, with additional refurbishment of older cars and more V/Locity orders between now and then.
    I assume that the "high capacity" trains will be some sort of upgraded VL with 4 cars per set and as many seats crammed in a possible.

    As for the new long-distance variant, I propose the following:
    • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).
    • 160km/h operation on RFR lines would cut travel times and hopefully reduce delays on congested sections of track (RRL).
    • I'd like to see first-class retained, but I wouldn't be too upset if they got rid of it.
    • No need for a buffet, a couple of vending machines is enough.
    • Run Shepparton services with 'normal' VL sets, à la Echuca/Ararat/Maryborough - thus long distance would only be to Warrnambool, Swan Hill, Albury and Bairnsdale. Alternatively, an argument could be made for confining VLs to inter-urban services and running the new long-distance trains to Shepparton and Echuca.
    • Rotating seats (like on the XPT) would be nice.
    • Since we live in the 21st century, power points are a must and onboard WiFi should be considered.


    Hopefully more comfortable, more reliable and faster trains will encourage more people to travel on long-distance Vline services. (Though equally important in making these services more attractive is speeding them up by removing unnecessary stops at stations that are well served by commuter trains.)

    With new trains along with improved infrastructure and (hopefully) better frequencies, there is a huge opportunity to completely revamp the inter-city side of V/Line's business over the next decade.


    What are everyone else's ideas for a long-distance VL based design?

    *Excluding the Overland and potentially the XPT replacement.
    steve195 said...........

  • They be able to be configured into 4 or 5 car sets (with new motors would an M-T-M-T-M configuration be powerful enough?).


  • No, Such a set will weight of around 280 tons and a wheel rim power of 1900bhp, this is 6.8bhp/ton. A 4 car Nset and an N class loco will weight just over 300 tons and a wheel rim power of just over 2000bhp giving a power to weigh to ratio of 6.7bhp/ton. A VLocity set under normal conditions has a power to weight ratio of 10.5bhp/ton. The higher power to weight ratio's will be required to maintain a decent timetable particularly on hillly lines like Ballarrat, Bendigo and Seymour.

    woodford
    Any new 5 or 6 car Inter City V/Locity trains would be in fixed consists with one non powered trailer car in the 5 or 6 car consist .  Five powering cars still plenty of  hp .
    kuldalai
    A 5 car VLocity with only 4 cars driving, speed climbing the Ingliston Bank 85kph, instead of 107kph, distance to reach 160kph on LEVEL track, just under 10kilometres as opposed to 6Kilometres. This would effectively end 160kph running at least on Ballarrat.

    woodford
      TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Power Trainger
    A 4/5 Train would be only for the long distance lines, and thus wouldn't be travelling via Ballarat. Warrnambool and Albury are the only two lines that are being upgraded for Long Distance DMUs at this time.

    I don't think the 3 Car Commuter VLocities will be going anywhere soon, just later ones configured for long distance may be delivered with one or two unpowered cars in the mix, based of course on what they work out.
      dthead Site Admin

    Location: Melbourne, Australia
    What is long distance? Should NSW and VIC combine their  SG long distance plans, so NSW get XPT replacements, and VIc gets it's SG fleet as well ? Would that bring the price down if the orders are combined ?

    Or is the NSW long distance, and VIC are medium distance, as seen by NSW ?

    Regards,
    David Head
      RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Dubai UAE
    What is long distance? Should NSW and VIC combine their  SG long distance plans, so NSW get XPT replacements, and VIc gets it's SG fleet as well ? Would that bring the price down if the orders are combined ?

    Or is the NSW long distance, and VIC are medium distance, as seen by NSW ?

    Regards,
    David Head
    dthead
    I think there would be some benefit in merging all SG CSO regional operations (from Brisbane to Adelaide and everything in between) with one operator and using a common rolling-stock for all services which is what NSW is about to do merging the XPL and XPT replacements into one single fleet.

    The bulk of Vic SG services are very similar to the XPL Canberra services in distance and/or duration.

    Would there a benefit for V/line to jump onto the SG XPT/XPL replacement order, yes, but the V/locity order and fleet size is so large they don't need to and I don't see sny benefit in using the XPT/XPL replacement stock over V/locity. In fact as the V/line fleet is based in Melbourne its probably smarter to stick with the highly successful V/locity platform with different fit out for longer haul services.
      kitchgp Chief Commissioner

    If it's only for 130kph running, build some non-powered VLocity buffet carriages (TR) with reversible luxury (reclining perhaps) seating, power points for laptops, USB charging and Wi-Fi. Club seating allows small groups to hold meetings whilst travelling. Add a surcharge, say $20 - $40, for seats in the carriage. Consider making provision in the design for the installation of motors at a later date, if needed.

    DM(D) - TM - TR - TM - DM  

    vicsig.net abbreviations:
    DM - Driver Motor
    DM(D) - Driver Motor with disabled toilet
    TM  - Trailer Motor
      RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Dubai UAE
    If it's only for 130kph running, build some non-powered VLocity buffet carriages (TR) with reversible luxury (reclining perhaps) seating, power points for laptops, USB charging and Wi-Fi. Club seating allows small groups to hold meetings whilst travelling. Add a surcharge, say $20 - $40, for seats in the carriage. Consider making provision in the design for the installation of motors at a later date, if needed.

    DM(D) - TM - TR - TM - DM  

    vicsig.net abbreviations:
    DM - Driver Motor
    DM(D) - Driver Motor with disabled toilet
    TM  - Trailer Motor
    kitchgp
    This would under-power the train, especially if one of the powered cars should have a traction system failure.

    Off the top of my head, you could probably get away with a non powered trailer if the train was at least 4 cars long + the non-powered trailer. ie 5 cars. The WE Prospector cars have a significantly higher power to weight ratio.

    The bulk of the remaining loco hauled services in V/line would be replaced with either a 3 or 4 car V/locity most of the time. The odd 5 car set maybe required on busier services.
      woodford Chief Commissioner

    If it's only for 130kph running, build some non-powered VLocity buffet carriages (TR) with reversible luxury (reclining perhaps) seating, power points for laptops, USB charging and Wi-Fi. Club seating allows small groups to hold meetings whilst travelling. Add a surcharge, say $20 - $40, for seats in the carriage. Consider making provision in the design for the installation of motors at a later date, if needed.

    DM(D) - TM - TR - TM - DM  

    vicsig.net abbreviations:
    DM - Driver Motor
    DM(D) - Driver Motor with disabled toilet
    TM  - Trailer Motor
    kitchgp
    A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormouse power to climb hills or accelarate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.

    A second point is currently all VLocity cars have there own Auxilary power supply, this being a small (around 50bhp) diesel alternator to supply, lighting , airconditioning etc. I do not know if they have the ability to supply another car, particuarly one with additional food storage, heating and freezing, this can easily add 10kw to the load.
    In a system like this, say a 3 car set, where the Auxilary power supply can take over when one of the other 2 sets fail. One power supply MUST be able to supply the whole thing, otherwise one risks a cascading failure due to overloads of indivdual supplies, when a supply fails..
      DounutCereal Chief Train Controller

    Location: Who knows.
    If it's only for 130kph running, build some non-powered VLocity buffet carriages (TR) with reversible luxury (reclining perhaps) seating, power points for laptops, USB charging and Wi-Fi. Club seating allows small groups to hold meetings whilst travelling. Add a surcharge, say $20 - $40, for seats in the carriage. Consider making provision in the design for the installation of motors at a later date, if needed.

    DM(D) - TM - TR - TM - DM  

    vicsig.net abbreviations:
    DM - Driver Motor
    DM(D) - Driver Motor with disabled toilet
    TM  - Trailer Motor
    A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormouse power to climb hills or accelarate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.

    A second point is currently all VLocity cars have there own Auxilary power supply, this being a small (around 50bhp) diesel alternator to supply, lighting , airconditioning etc. I do not know if they have the ability to supply another car, particuarly one with additional food storage, heating and freezing, this can easily add 10kw to the load.
    In a system like this, say a 3 car set, where the Auxilary power supply can take over when one of the other 2 sets fail. One power supply MUST be able to supply the whole thing, otherwise one risks a cascading failure due to overloads of indivdual supplies, when a supply fails..
    woodford
    I imagine they'd keep the aux generators at one per car even on the unpowered ones since they are already happy with generators under the floors of loco hauled cars now. Having 5 cars worth of gens I would hope would be more than enough so in the event of one failing, 4 would be sufficient to (and wired for) running 1 dead car and putting 1.25 car loads on each.

    The unpowered car would be quieter without a 19L cummins hammering away under the floor so I imagine the first class passengers would prefer to be on it as opposed to paying premium to listen to engine noise for the entire Melbourne to Warrnambool run plus the space that would normally be taken up with an engine could be used for a range extending fuel tank to feed the neighbouring cars.

    With the longer distances between stations and the less of a priority of fast acceleration though I have to wonder about the need for 4 powered cars instead of an M-T-M-T-M setup, especially when there would be more 115/130km/h running than 160km/h. You'd have more cars available for first class passengers paying for a smooth and quiet ride and be burning less fuel when cruising. You'd still have the ~1800hp of a regular 3 car set but when taking the place of a N class hauled train you'd be without the turbo lag of the 2,400hp N class on leaving stations and without the 124T using some fo that power to accelerate and move itself
      RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

    Location: Dubai UAE
    A couple of points, we have to take care in reducing motive power in a set, it takes enormouse power to climb hills or accelarate a train over 100kph, A VLocity can reach 130kph in under 2000 metres on level track, it takes another 4000 metres to reach 160kph and can only JUST maintain 160kph on a 1 in 100 grade. A 6 car VLocity based set with only 4 powered cars has a power to weight ratio of somewhat more than 6 car N set drawn by an N class loco.

    A second point is currently all VLocity cars have there own Auxilary power supply, this being a small (around 50bhp) diesel alternator to supply, lighting , airconditioning etc. I do not know if they have the ability to supply another car, particuarly one with additional food storage, heating and freezing, this can easily add 10kw to the load.
    In a system like this, say a 3 car set, where the Auxilary power supply can take over when one of the other 2 sets fail. One power supply MUST be able to supply the whole thing, otherwise one risks a cascading failure due to overloads of indivdual supplies, when a supply fails..
    woodford
    I would have thought they operate with a common buss bar along the train for Aux power so if one fails, no issue. Sparks in the cities do pretty much the same so should have been added to a modern DMU design. AC is alot more than 10kW alone.

    The Aux unit is rated at 80kW, size of a small-medium car engine which seems heaps more than enough for a single car.

    I'd say at a guess the V/locities operate their Aux supply on a N-1 design criteria and that on a 2 car set in 40C weather, one can fail and all is good. Hence on a 4 car train you could loose 2 x Aux units, but not 1 unit on a 40C day, but with AC off yes.

    The V/locity sets need to be operated in normal condition with all traction engines operating or at least available to achieve the desired track speed and acceleration. Adding a unpowered trailer obviously limits both. On a trip to Mildura, after the first 150km, stops are rare, so are hills and there won't be 160km/hr running.

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