Rail line to Langy call on Daniel Andrews

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Nov 2017 12:37
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
There is no way any minister is going to remove a rail service to Stony Point with the Ferry and all.  The costs to the government would be too high.

A do agree the electrification needs to be done to the end of the line in one foul swoop. This will lead to more services and more commuters as a sprinter service is currently seen as substandard to the metro network.

Would also make the sprinters available for other traffic.

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  True Believers Chief Commissioner

There is no way any minister is going to remove a rail service to Stony Point with the Ferry and all.  The costs to the government would be too high.

A do agree the electrification needs to be done to the end of the line in one foul swoop. This will lead to more services and more commuters as a sprinter service is currently seen as substandard to the metro network.

Would also make the sprinters available for other traffic.
x31
The question is when is the right time to electrify the line, other lines are also up for candidates for electrification. First is Melton. Secondly the Regional Rail Link corridor. And Third is the Wallan corridor. Is the Stony Point gonna get developed into a commuter line into the future with homes and new business are attached to the area? It is a great idea or concept but it would mean other areas already in development will have to wait. Maybe after these lines are electrified, then it would be the perfect time to discuss this. Electrifying to Melton is no risk, but electrifying to Stony Point is a risk, no current development, the line is in a very poor state and a lot of money at stake.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

There is no way any minister is going to remove a rail service to Stony Point with the Ferry and all.  The costs to the government would be too high.

A do agree the electrification needs to be done to the end of the line in one foul swoop. This will lead to more services and more commuters as a sprinter service is currently seen as substandard to the metro network.

Would also make the sprinters available for other traffic.
The question is when is the right time to electrify the line, other lines are also up for candidates for electrification. First is Melton. Secondly the Regional Rail Link corridor. And Third is the Wallan corridor. Is the Stony Point gonna get developed into a commuter line into the future with homes and new business are attached to the area? It is a great idea or concept but it would mean other areas already in development will have to wait. Maybe after these lines are electrified, then it would be the perfect time to discuss this. Electrifying to Melton is no risk, but electrifying to Stony Point is a risk, no current development, the line is in a very poor state and a lot of money at stake.
James974
Why do we have this attitude that new services are to the detriment of others? Can't more things be done at once. Imagine if the LXRA did one crossing at a time.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
There is no way any minister is going to remove a rail service to Stony Point with the Ferry and all.  The costs to the government would be too high.
x31
That would make sense if the ferry was integrated.  AFAIK the ferry does not meet the train, and you can't use MYKI on it.  (Happy to be corrected on that.)

The cost to the Government would be much the same as for Leongatha, Cobram, Wonthaggi, Healesville ...... ???  Probably less, because of the shorter distance.
  TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Power Trainger
The ferry connects to the train heading to Melbourne, which results in a 40 minute or so gap going the other way.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
TO return to the original topic at hand, wasn't the plan originally to have a large suburban depot and terminus at Baxter?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Why end the overhead at Baxter? Somerville seems to be much larger, at least when looking at the Melway maps.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
Why end the overhead at Baxter? Somerville seems to be much larger, at least when looking at the Melway maps.
Heihachi_73
I think there was already land set aside for the depot there; I recall seeing something during Denis Naptime's reign that suggested PTV had a long term plan to terminate electric services there.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
how about single track electrification and duplicate the hole thing later, I'm a local to this area btw. that seems to be a compromise at least!
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

how about single track electrification and duplicate the hole thing later, I'm a local to this area btw. that seems to be a compromise at least!
Dangersdan707
Well you could add passing loops along the corridor.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Alright, I've been holding off on this one until I had time to treat it appropriately, so hold on, this will take a while.

Firstly, the current Sprinter service between Frankston and Stony Point is properly pathetic. Weekdays see only 10 down trains a day, the last train from Frankston on a Saturday departs as early as 7:30PM, I mean this timetable is reminiscent of a V/Line timetable circa 1996.

Now compare that with say, the current Geelong line, which has trains running at 10 minute headways in the peak, and 20 minute inter peak and considering that is still dieselised, I hardly think Stony Point is at the stage of being up for electrification just yet.

As I understand it, the primitive signalling and safeworking used on the line only allows one train at a time.

So before the line gets electrified, it will need to be improved massively. Upgraded signalling, construction of crossing loops, the ability to run multiple trains at once while still allowing for adequate pathing for the highly lucrative steel freight, and an upgrade to the current Sprinter's timetable. More Sprinters can be released by V/Line if the demand is there.

Secondly, The reason Baxter is earmarked for electrification over the busier Somerville and/ or Hastings, or even the further Stony Point has nothing to do with serving passengers. Land at Baxter has been put aside for a large Craigieburn style maintenence and stabling facility. The line will need something like that soon, you could easily argue it needs it now, there is no available land further up the line, Baxter is the chosen site.

For this site to be built, the line between Baxter and Frankston will need to be duplicated and electrified. The reality is, this has nothing to do with providing the good citizens of Baxter or Langwarrin with an improved rail service over the rest of the Stony Point line. It is just an operational requirement.

-----

Ideally, the government would build the new depot at Baxter, duplicate and electrify to Hastings, and mothball past Hastings until such a time as the urban sprawl has made its mark further down the line. That will not happen. Neither political party could survive the fury the public would unleash on them if they closed that line, neither can they justify spending that much money on the line over corridors with much higher growth figures, ie: Melton - Sunshine, Werribee - Tarneit, etc

Why do we have this attitude that new services are to the detriment of others? Can't more things be done at once. Imagine if the LXRA did one crossing at a time.
John.Z
The only way the government was able to fund the LXRA was to sell the Port of Melbourne. Without another Port of Melbourne lying about and unless Daniel Andrews finds a spare few billion hiding under his couch, it is a reality that we must make these choices.

It is important to note, historically the Labor party have been opposed to selling off the farm to fund government spending, just ask Jeff Kennett about the kicking he received for doing just that. That said, selling off the Port has provided the government with a lot of cash, cash that they have spent wisely, there are only so many of those Golden Geese, they certainly shouldn't be in a hurry to sell them all.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
@Gman_86 the line I believe get sufficient traffic up to crib point, because people from the surrounding area park there cars there (and bitten) and take the train to Frankston thus to the big smoke. though if they shut down stoney point station the locals would be really pissed off even though nothing is their!
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Just some numbers to back up what I have said in the above post.

Stony Point currently has 10 down passenger services a day, compare that with some other lines;

Upfield, is currently the quietest electrified line on the Metro network (not including the racecourse line), it receives 56 down trains a day;

Geelong is the busiest of the V/Line diesel powered lines, currently it receives 60 down trains a day including 5 Wyndham Vale short runs;

Hurstbridge, South Morang and Sunbury all lines I have chosen to check at random, each receive 80 down services a day, including short runs to Macleod, Greensborough, Eltham, Epping and Watergardens;

Frankston, as possibly the busiest line, and the line in question. Due to a higher inter peak frequency of 10 minutes, including short runs to Moorabin, Cheltenham, Mordialloc and Carrum, Frankston recieves a whopping 123 down trains a day.

No, it isn't a contest, just an indicator on where the Stony Point line currently sits in the great pecking order, pretty low down the order it would seem.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Ideally, the government would build the new depot at Baxter, duplicate and electrify to Hastings, and mothball past Hastings until such a time as the urban sprawl has made its mark further down the line.
Gman_86
Hastings to Crib Point the land Is actually rather built up.

Stony Point only ever existed because of It's wharf on Western Port Bay.

Blackwood timber used to be cut and milled on the Gippsland side of the Bay than shipped across the bay to the VR system at Stony Point to be forwarded on to further markets.

It's wharf Is now only passengers today (port authority service vessels also)

Passenger ferry service should be promoted much greater as a unique way to get to bustling Cowes during the peak Summer season.
Where road traveling time on or off the Island can take many hours longer than normal, traffic can cue up as far as Bass and Kilcunda and sometimes stop dead If there Is a crash and the road gets closed for an unknown amount of time.
  True Believers Chief Commissioner

@Gman_86 I like your point, but to correct you, the Port of Melbourne is not sold but leased over 50 years. The reality is there isn't billions of dollars in the at disposal. So whatever is spent on the rail network must be carefully spent.

Regional Rail Link was mostly funded by Federals, not State.
Metro Tunnel is a 10 year project, has a PPP (public, private partnership) arrangement, the state gov chips in 1 or so billion each year, private sector helps out.
Level Crossing Removal Project is funded both taxpayers money and the leasing infrastructure:
The first few crossings were funded by state government. The crossing funded by the Port Lease are likely the North Western level crossings.
Regional Rail Revival: which includes Ballarat rail upgrade. Is Funded mostly by Feds, some of it via state government.
Mernda Rail link is fully funded by state government.
And other small improvements like rail duplication is state government
The Dandenong rail upgrade is another PPP arrangement, state gov puts money into this project, private sector helps out.

As you thought most projects over $1 billion, are within the state capabilities but it most cases have private sectors help out with the funding or Federal Government cooperation. As well as leasing infrastructure.

The only major rail project that seemed to happen with only state government funding is the Mandurah line in Perth. Yes that was quite impressive in today standards. 70 kms of double track rail and some city tunnels, about $1 or so billion dollars.

But of course, Melbourne has many rail lines to upgrade and many areas to expand to.
  bomberswarm2 Junior Train Controller

Stony Point does not have the traffic to justify electrification.  It's a bit surprising that it has not gone the same way as Healesville - similar type of  service, and Healesville is much bigger than Stony Point.

Electrification at any rate will increase services and provide any uplift required in passenger numbers.
bevans

Stony point averages 0.5 passengers per service.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
I am not aware of any federal funding announcements for this work at least last night so rail misses out here.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I am not aware of any federal funding announcements for this work at least last night so rail misses out here.
freightgate
An Extension of sparks Baxter does not add up financially, the reports are out and have been for some time. So go read them. Me thinks this proposal was just some pork Barreling for Mr Hunt, in an attempt to combat the ever increasing swings in his seat to labour. Its unsurprising the Feds aren't funding this.

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