R766- the final hurdle

 
  ivahri Train Controller

I really want to give them some money... and I'm not talking about $50 or $100. I would love to take them up on a cab ride in return for $1000. It is a great cause, and getting this mighty loco running on the SG would be a great plus for rail preservation.

BUT

Whether they like it or not anyone with half a brain is going to want to know how kosher this all is. They say the money is for the radio but what about the boiler stays? They mention they need to be replaced before the boiler can get a fresh ticket. They say it is a dead cert otherwise they wouldn't be chasing the money for the radio.

But I don't know these people. They wouldn't be the first or the last in the rail preservation community to stretch the truth... or tell fibs. Given they chose not to tell us anything until now no trust has been created... sometimes being more open can help to build relationships when the time comes when they are needed.

So will the boiler pass? How do we know? Are the stays the only problem? How do they know? Have they lifted the boiler before?

Lots of questions... and until I feel confident that this mighty loco will run in the next year or so, in NSW, I'm not giving them my hard earned. I'll trust them when they trust me...


Richard

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  Matthew Chief Train Controller

So, an ICE Radio needs to be installed in the Cab of any Loco that leads a train on most networks? - ie, ATRC, JHR in NSW, VLine etc. I gather it applies to all DMU Cabs, EMU as well?

The Base2 Company must be doing well.

http://www.base2.com.au/Mobile-Communications/ice-radio.html
mikesyd
They are probably not the only company who can provide a mobile unit.
Looks like the underlying intellectual property of the NTCS system is owned by ARTC and Telstra. Other vendors could license the technology and make radio units for trains, but 'competition' won't do much for the price as an alternative vendor will have to demonstrate full interoperability with other the vendor's radios complying to the NTCS standard. That's a LOT of work and not cheap.

Any train operating on the ARTC network needs to have an NTCS compatible radio. Most EMU's probably don't, in Melbourne, the suburban network is broad gauge and not part of the national rail network. In Sydney the network operated by Sydney Trains has been kept in NSW hands, so the suburban trains don't need NTCS radios. The DMU's that go further afield do.

JHR in NSW wouldn't actually need a NTCS unit to run on a NSW branch line, but the train couldn't get to that branch line without crossing ARTC tracks where such a radio would be required.
  ivahri Train Controller

Moving right along - are there no radio enthusiasts in Australia who could build one of these radios? Like others, I am appalled at 70 grand for one.
Valvegear
You really are kidding? We aren't talking about grand-dad's crystal set, or a 27MHz CB from your childhood. These radios aren't just a single radio, they are satellite phone, 4G data & voice unit, and high UHF digital radio built into a fully integrated, auto-switching/routing enclosure. The answer to your question is not no, but HELL NO.


Richard
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

Matthew, thanks for a very good, detailed reply. (You will no doubt have gathered that I know 3/5ths of 5/8ths of nothing about radio.)
Valvegear
Proposing that a ham radio fan construct one of these complex radios indicates you know absolutely nothing about such radios.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Big wide world outside of Railpage you know! There has been quite a few small updates and even pictures of it on Facebook over the last few years.
traincatcher

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“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard."
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  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
now I have seen a least 42 post about R766 in my time on Railpage Australia™
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Proposing that a ham radio fan construct one of these complex radios indicates you know absolutely nothing about such radios.
"nswtrains"


You really are kidding? We aren't talking about grand-dad's crystal set, or a 27MHz CB from your childhood. These radios aren't just a single radio, they are satellite phone, 4G data & voice unit, and high UHF digital radio built into a fully integrated, auto-switching/routing enclosure. The answer to your question is not no, but HELL NO.
"ivahri"


You're both a bit late. Go back to page one of the thread, and you can read my question, Matthew's excellent reply, and my admission that I know nothing about radio.
It may come as a ghastly shock to both of you that I asked the question because I didn't know the facts. Now I do, because of one good mannered contributor who was kind enough to provide a detailed answer. I was also good mannered enough to publicly thank him. Your comments did not contribute anything to the sum of human knowledge and I thank you both for nothing.
  ivahri Train Controller

Proposing that a ham radio fan construct one of these complex radios indicates you know absolutely nothing about such radios.


You really are kidding? We aren't talking about grand-dad's crystal set, or a 27MHz CB from your childhood. These radios aren't just a single radio, they are satellite phone, 4G data & voice unit, and high UHF digital radio built into a fully integrated, auto-switching/routing enclosure. The answer to your question is not no, but HELL NO.


You're both a bit late. Go back to page one of the thread, and you can read my question, Matthew's excellent reply, and my admission that I know nothing about radio.
It may come as a ghastly shock to both of you that I asked the question because I didn't know the facts. Now I do, because of one good mannered contributor who was kind enough to provide a detailed answer. I was also good mannered enough to publicly thank him. Your comments did not contribute anything to the sum of human knowledge and I thank you both for nothing.
Valvegear

Matthew's reply was WRONG. I'm sorry but both of you have no idea how many years of industry discussion went into this system. I work in the radio industry & I know that large multinational companies investigated this. It is extremely complex & the R&D that went into it was in the many millions...

So no, an Aussie radio nut could not have developed it without significant design help.


Richard
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic


Matthew's reply was WRONG. I'm sorry but both of you have no idea how many years of industry discussion went into this system. I work in the radio industry & I know that large multinational companies investigated this. It is extremely complex & the R&D that went into it was in the many millions...

So no, an Aussie radio nut could not have developed it without significant design help.
ivahri

I cannot comment on your assertion that Matthew is wrong because I don't have the knowledge. I note that either you can't be bothered to correct him, or you don't know where he's wrong. Until further evidence is adduced, I'll continue to accept what Matthew wrote. "WRONG" is not evidence.
Furthermore, you can stop telling me that I have no idea; I've said it now twice, and yet you feel compelled to tell me for a second time. I've got the message thanks. Why not try to tell me what's correct?
  ivahri Train Controller



Matthew's reply was WRONG. I'm sorry but both of you have no idea how many years of industry discussion went into this system. I work in the radio industry & I know that large multinational companies investigated this. It is extremely complex & the R&D that went into it was in the many millions...

So no, an Aussie radio nut could not have developed it without significant design help.
I cannot comment on your assertion that Matthew is wrong because I don't have the knowledge. I note that either you can't be bothered to correct him, or you don't know where he's wrong. Until further evidence is adduced, I'll continue to accept what Matthew wrote. "WRONG" is not evidence.
Furthermore, you can stop telling me that I have no idea; I've said it now twice, and yet you feel compelled to tell me for a second time. I've got the message thanks.
Valvegear
3rd option... I couldn't be bothered. The whole argument is a waste of time. Do you really think that the rail industry are so stupid that they choose to pay large amounts of money if there was a cheaper option?

Integrating a variety of communications mediums into a single box that knows which one to use wherever the train is, was very complex.

I frankly don't care who you choose to believe. Ignorance Is Bliss should be the motto for Railpage.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
3rd option... I couldn't be bothered. The whole argument is a waste of time. Do you really think that the rail industry are so stupid that they choose to pay large amounts of money if there was a cheaper option?

Integrating a variety of communications mediums into a single box that knows which one to use wherever the train is, was very complex.

I frankly don't care who you choose to believe. Ignorance Is Bliss should be the motto for Railpage.
"ivahri"
You really are a mine of information, aren't you, but bad manners are your preferred option.
You could impart useful knowledge but you choose not to.
Why should anyone believe you? Just because you say, "He's wrong; I'm right"?
Ignorance will continue until people like you, with knowledge, decide to teach those without. So far you've contributed nothing which is a pity. I suspect there would more than just me who'd like some detail.
  ivahri Train Controller

Valvegear the topic of discussion is R766. If you wish to hold a discussion on train radio then there is another section on Railpage for that. I will not be a party to your diverting the discussion from the real issue.
  Duffy Chief Commissioner

Location: ACT
Actually, you do need one for the JHR network. Most of it operates under Electronic Train Order safeworking and this is done through the ICE radio system.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
The topic may be R766, but they are asking for money to fund an ICE Radio.

Myself and Valvegear may have diverted more to the ICE Radio side, but then some rude responses from some self appointed  know it all was what really turned the thread away from its intended topic.

So, to avoid a visit from a mod armed with a padlock and a disposable key, let us all keep to the original subject.
  lsrailfan Chief Commissioner

Location: Somewhere you're not
What really has let a lot of people down, is the lack of information about this project, I'm as keen to see this engine run as anyone else is, I'm sure, but having more regular updates about this Loco would have helped a lot , even just a quick note to say "the project will be delayed slightly because of this, or that," I am looking forward to seeing this engine when she finally gets underway

Kind Regards
  Carnot Minister for Railways

I'm glad the 'cone of silence' has finally been lifted and some momentum is building to get this machine on the rails sooner rather than later.
  LowndesJ515 #TeamRog

Location: Not in Victoria
You can make ICE radio's portable between locomotives. The HMI and CCU parts can be transferred between locomotives, which is the most expensive part.

During the design phase on the locomotive, you can make the above items easy to get in and out. All the aerials and wires can be fixed to the locomotive. Takes about 10 mins to swap between locomotives. When the Garratt was parked outside of Canberra, we took the HMI and CCU back to Canberra for safe keeping. When the Garratt was not in use, the HMI and CCU was swapped between 4403, 4807 or 3016. In the month leading up to the demise of the ARHS, same units were fitted to the CPH's for mainline use. The aerials and wires is the only thing that cost to get the CPH's up and going, sadly they never saw a single Train Order.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Big wide world outside of Railpage you know!
traincatcher
If there is such a wide world outside of Railpage then why did the OP feel the need to come here to this little world with the begging bowl out?

There are a whole bunch of worthy Rail projects out there at the moment including K160 which is getting a full overhaul at Newport for a return to service on the Victorian Goldfields Railway (and yes, I am biased towards that one!)

Personally I will be giving my hard earned (and hopefully some more volunteer hours) to that project and I will continue to support other organisations such as 707, Dermpav and others (including Steamrail) who provide regular updates via newsletters, website updates, facebook posts and blogs etc.

Heck I even joined the SRHC mailing list after coming across their excellent blog online a few months back!

BG
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Wait SRHC have a mailing list too? Sweet
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I have seen the same announcements on a number of facebook groups and pages, most likely preceding the RP post. If I was trying to raise some money for a preservation (or restoration) project I would be announcing it in all the groups, forums, and the like, that I could think of.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I have seen the same announcements on a number of facebook groups and pages, most likely preceding the RP post. If I was trying to raise some money for a preservation (or restoration) project I would be announcing it in all the groups, forums, and the like, that I could think of.
duttonbay
Agree totally.

Railpage is just one of the many placed people would publisise  their appeal.  People seem to  be making a mountain out of a molehill.  It's no special deal. It's also true when there is no news, people complain. When there is news, people complain. A no win situation - therefore they do what they want.

And the appeal is stated  for the radio, so radio talk is very revelant here.


If you donate, or not is your personal decision.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
t's no special deal. It's also true when there is no news, people complain. When there is news, people complain. A no win situation - therefore they do what they want
"dthead"
I think that's an unfortunate generalisation. Complaints about no news are just that - we've heard nothing. Complaints about news are not made because it has arrived and we have heard something.

Nothing heard for years, and suddenly a video with "look what we've done" would have been excellent and I don't think anyone would have complained about it.
This particular complaint is quite specific and I don't need to go into it again.
  Shed_Rat Train Controller

Location: 'A' Shop - Swindon Works
As well as the YouTube video a link to a page that gives the following would help their cause a bit more than just saying we need $$ to buy & install a ICE radio.

- Where will it be mainly based? (Rothbury or another location?)
- Under whose accreditation will it run? (a new R766 group or due to the affiliation of those involved LVR?)
- How often is it planned to run?

I also found it amusing how the need to replace wall stays in the boiler was said in passing  after it was said that the loco was basically ready to run bar the ICE radio & testing for accreditation approval.
  ivahri Train Controller

The wording of the Gofundme page is deceptive.

It says that once the radio equipment is fitted it will be ready for main line trials.

It hasn't got a boiler ticket. No mention of that...

It needs a number of new stays. No mention of that...

I find having no information a problem when deciding to donate. I find having deceptive information even worse.

Honesty. They should try it...


Richard
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
- Where will it be mainly based? (Rothbury or another location?)
human

it seems that the LVR will be using it in the near future. an educated guess refer to 'the picnic train' headboard on loco and Facebook page for 'the picnic train'

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