Re building the N Class in Victoria

 
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

At some point in the near future the N Class used by V Line will be replaced. As they are on average 35 years old they would be a good candidate for a rebuild. At present they use an EMD 12 cylinder 645 engine. Is it possible to either?

  1. Upscale from the 12 cylinder 645 to a 12 cylinder 710 engine. OR;
  2. Remove the HEP unit and expand the existing engine size from 12 cylinders to 16 cylinders, staying with the 645 capacity.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
I'm guessing the N Class would the phased out by future orders of more Vlocity railcars.

V/Line would than sell or hire their fleet of N Class to other operators (maybe with an order to keep them on the Victorian system)
  gary george Beginner

Possibile to replace although with new emission regulation around engines would not meet new rules. also carriages they pull are as old as them and some are even older.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This shall probably happen, the sole a class shall be the first to go then the N class and when they are gone the piolets shall be next as their is no use for them
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

This shall probably happen, the sole a class shall be the first to go then the N class and when they are gone the piolets shall be next as their is no use for them
Dangersdan707
I cannot understand what you are saying here. This sounds like gibberish.
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

The N class may not have enough cooling capacity for a 12-710 or 16-645...although the success of the XRs and VLs perhaps proves otherwise. Aurizon and Progress Rail are currently developing prototype rebuilds for the turbo 12-645 2300s (more or less the same as the Ns) and non turbo 12-645 2470 class using the 8-710 rated to 2320hp. A similar rebuild retaining HEP for the N class would probably be the best solution to maintain their current haulage capacity and range.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The N class may not have enough cooling capacity for a 12-710 or 16-645...although the success of the XRs and VLs perhaps proves otherwise. Aurizon and Progress Rail are currently developing prototype rebuilds for the turbo 12-645 2300s (more or less the same as the Ns) and non turbo 12-645 2470 class using the 8-710 rated to 2320hp. A similar rebuild retaining HEP for the N class would probably be the best solution to maintain their current haulage capacity and range.
Sulla1
Sulla 1 You make a good point here.

I will mention GML 10 which while a one off unit, closely resembles the N Class. It uses a V12 710 EMD engine with no apparent cooling problems. It is rated to 3300hp. I guess the real issue is how much cooling space do you need for a 710 engine and can that be achieved within the body of an N Class.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This shall probably happen, the sole a class shall be the first to go then the N class and when they are gone the piolets shall be next as their is no use for them
Somebody
ok I understand, typing on a phone is annoying.
What I mean is that A66 will most likely be the first of the locos to be withdrawn, next the entire N class Probably sold of or retained for leasing, when all the loco hauled trains are gone then the Y and P class pilots shall go
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
This shall probably happen, the sole a class shall be the first to go then the N class and when they are gone the piolets shall be next as their is no use for them
ok I understand, typing on a phone is annoying.
What I mean is that A66 will most likely be the first of the locos to be withdrawn, next the entire N class Probably sold of or retained for leasing, when all the loco hauled trains are gone then the Y and P class pilots shall go
Dangersdan707
I can't see V/Line leasing any of them, that is not really their business these days, I reckon they will get rid of them ASAP.

If they were a private company there would be balance sheet valuation considerations but they aren't and if they rack up another loss in the process it's OK, we taxpayers will foot the bill Laughing

BG
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
This shall probably happen, the sole a class shall be the first to go then the N class and when they are gone the piolets shall be next as their is no use for them
ok I understand, typing on a phone is annoying.
What I mean is that A66 will most likely be the first of the locos to be withdrawn, next the entire N class Probably sold of or retained for leasing, when all the loco hauled trains are gone then the Y and P class pilots shall go
I can't see V/Line leasing any of them, that is not really their business these days, I reckon they will get rid of them ASAP.

If they were a private company there would be balance sheet valuation considerations but they aren't and if they rack up another loss in the process it's OK, we taxpayers will foot the bill Laughing

BG
IIRC they leased locos out to the old and now defunct El Borrow? man I wish there was a partly agree button
  M636C Minister for Railways

The N class may not have enough cooling capacity for a 12-710 or 16-645...although the success of the XRs and VLs perhaps proves otherwise. Aurizon and Progress Rail are currently developing prototype rebuilds for the turbo 12-645 2300s (more or less the same as the Ns) and non turbo 12-645 2470 class using the 8-710 rated to 2320hp. A similar rebuild retaining HEP for the N class would probably be the best solution to maintain their current haulage capacity and range.
Sulla 1 You make a good point here.

I will mention GML 10 which while a one off unit, closely resembles the N Class. It uses a V12 710 EMD engine with no apparent cooling problems. It is rated to 3300hp. I guess the real issue is how much cooling space do you need for a 710 engine and can that be achieved within the body of an N Class.
Duncs
GML 10 has no cooling problems because it has a radiator about 50% bigger than that on an N class.
The third cooling fan above the radiator is a bit of a giveaway in that regard.
It is rated at 3030HP, not 3300HP.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't fit the larger radiator in an N class if you wanted to.
There is a Clyde drawing of a N class with a 12-645F3 engine, which has a larger radiator but still only two cooling fans.
This would be good for 2800 HP. This was apparently an alternative not selected by V/line.

An 8-710G3 would provide 2000HP, a reduction of 250HP on the present N class.

Peter
  Graham4405 The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Dalby Qld
typing on a phone is annoying.
Dangersdan707
So, either don't do it or triple check what you have typed before you press submit...
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I can't see V/Line leasing any of them, that is not really their business these days, I reckon they will get rid of them ASAP.

If they were a private company there would be balance sheet valuation considerations but they aren't and if they rack up another loss in the process it's OK, we taxpayers will foot the bill Laughing

BG
IIRC they leased locos out to the old and now defunct El Borrow? man I wish there was a partly agree button
Dangersdan707
I fully agree with you re the partly agree button and i partly agree with you about the rest!

Whilst V/line have in the past (and still do occasionally for Heritage tours) lease out locos I can't see them retaining a fleet of otherwise redundant N class locos for that purpose.

It would be quite a large fleet requiring a separate maintenance regime which they already struggle with plus a dedicated group of staff to manage the hiring.

My bet is that they will flog the lot off to the highest bidder. But only time will tell, so many other factors such as which party is in power, management at Vline etc etc.

BG
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I can't see V/Line leasing any of them, that is not really their business these days, I reckon they will get rid of them ASAP.

If they were a private company there would be balance sheet valuation considerations but they aren't and if they rack up another loss in the process it's OK, we taxpayers will foot the bill Laughing

BG
IIRC they leased locos out to the old and now defunct El Borrow? man I wish there was a partly agree button
I fully agree with you re the partly agree button and i partly agree with you about the rest!

Whilst V/line have in the past (and still do occasionally for Heritage tours) lease out locos I can't see them retaining a fleet of otherwise redundant N class locos for that purpose.

It would be quite a large fleet requiring a separate maintenance regime which they already struggle with plus a dedicated group of staff to manage the hiring.

My bet is that they will flog the lot off to the highest bidder. But only time will tell, so many other factors such as which party is in power, management at Vline etc etc.

BG
BrentonGolding
I largely agree, however they still haven't sold off the P class yet and they have been out of service for over a year now
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I largely agree, however they still haven't sold off the P class yet and they have been out of service for over a year now
Dangersdan707
Hmmm, so now we need a Largely agree button as well....... Maybe we need to divide the full Agree into quarters so we could have an Agree a Little Bit, Half agree (which would be similar to your Partly), a Largely Agree (3/4) and a Fully Agree button. Mods please take note!

Re the P, the P class is pretty low rent at 1100hp and they are also very old being a 1980s rebuild of a mid 1950s loco.

The N class are a more modern frame and design with anti climb beam, high impact screens etc and could be rebuilt into something around 3000hp pretty easily by the sounds of it and therefore would be much more attractive to a freight operator IMHO

BG
  jakar Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I largely agree, however they still haven't sold off the P class yet and they have been out of service for over a year now
Dangersdan707


Don't know where you're getting your facts from, but the last regular P class services only ceased around the end of August 2017......

They have been spot hired since then and unless it has changed very recently they're still on the books and getting started + serviced regularly.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Aside from perhaps terminal shunters (which the T Class seems to do ok), im not sure what use Ns would have post passenger service.  I dont see a rebuild in the future given that the current SG fleet looks to be going to take over BG work in the Murray Basin which will cascade locos like the G and XR to allow retirements of older locos like the S.  Some will probably end up in heritage given the heritage fleets will probably need augmenting (especially the Ts which have been back on revenue service with QUBE).
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

The N class may not have enough cooling capacity for a 12-710 or 16-645...although the success of the XRs and VLs perhaps proves otherwise. Aurizon and Progress Rail are currently developing prototype rebuilds for the turbo 12-645 2300s (more or less the same as the Ns) and non turbo 12-645 2470 class using the 8-710 rated to 2320hp. A similar rebuild retaining HEP for the N class would probably be the best solution to maintain their current haulage capacity and range.
Sulla 1 You make a good point here.

I will mention GML 10 which while a one off unit, closely resembles the N Class. It uses a V12 710 EMD engine with no apparent cooling problems. It is rated to 3300hp. I guess the real issue is how much cooling space do you need for a 710 engine and can that be achieved within the body of an N Class.
GML 10 has no cooling problems because it has a radiator about 50% bigger than that on an N class.
The third cooling fan above the radiator is a bit of a giveaway in that regard.
It is rated at 3030HP, not 3300HP.

That doesn't mean that you couldn't fit the larger radiator in an N class if you wanted to.
There is a Clyde drawing of a N class with a 12-645F3 engine, which has a larger radiator but still only two cooling fans.
This would be good for 2800 HP. This was apparently an alternative not selected by V/line.

An 8-710G3 would provide 2000HP, a reduction of 250HP on the present N class.

Peter
M636C
Peter

Thanks for the info on GML 10. I did not realise that it had a bigger radiator and three cooling fans to the N’s two fans. I suspect your calculation of 2800 HP (via a rebuilt 12-645F3 engine) will be where this all goes. Assuming a bigger radiator is also installed.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Could a N class be upgraded to essentially become a Westrail S class ? The S has 3010 HP with a EMD 710 and weight is nearly identical.
GS4
If you made Aurizon a good offer you could probably buy the eleven S class...

Peter
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
I think we should all remember that not everything can, and nor should it, survive....
  NR61 Station Staff

The locomotive class leader should be preserved. Just like X31, N451 should be preserved. I'd say in V/Line Orange and Grey.
  ivahri Train Controller

I think we should all remember that not everything can, and nor should it, survive....
james.au
Reverend Jones from Dorrigo will be demanding your repentance from such blasphemy by the next electrical storm...
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The locomotive class leader should be preserved. Just like X31, N451 should be preserved. I'd say in V/Line Orange and Grey.
NR61
Keep the best regardless of its number if you must keep one.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
We already know that the medium to long term plan is to replace them with a new Vlocity derived DMU deigned specifically for long haul trips. This is expected to be introduced inside the next 5 years, first on the Warrnambool and Albury services, then on the Bairnsdale and Swan Hill services. With the appropriate upgrades to the Shepparton line, it will be serviced by standard Vlocity and Sprinter railcars.

All other V/Line services will be operated by Vlocities and Sprinters.

When this is done, all Locomotive hauled passenger trains will be redundant in Victoria, with the exception of Heritage specials of course.

At this time, the remaining N and Z cars & H sets will all be for the scrap heap, except for maybe a handful to be saved for preservation purposes, if their is significant interest.

A60 should go into preservation (being originally B60, the first mainline diesel electric locomotive built for the Victorian Railways, it is highly significant and should be saved, even if only as a static display), the rest of the A class and all of the N class should then be put up for sale.

If any of the A & N class don't sell, then some of them may be acquired by heritage groups.

P and Y class the same, although their may be a limited market for these smaller locomotives, especially with less and less of the state being Broad Gauge.

If the N class are sold and their new owners deem it worthwhile, then and only then are they likely to see any sort of rebuild.
  greasyrhys Chief Commissioner

Location: MacDonald Park, SA
A standard gauge N would be perfect for The Overland, if only V/Line were interested in running that service. Maybe by the start of next year (we can dream right?)

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