Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

Wow Matthew Guy is a joke. Just the fact that he wants to run it from Essendon, which will be strained enough when short starter services begin from there. Also intersection removals are for the most part silly. Better off Skyrail-ing the Upfield Line.

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  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I must say, I am really quite bemused by this talk about rail to the Airport. Even discussing spending $10 Billion for rail to the airport whilst Albury and Shepparton corridors are services by old life expired equipment that third world countries would sneer at, impending capacity constraints on the Cragieburn and Bendigo corridors and the crisis on long distance V/line services, is absolutely disgusting and nothing short of blatant electioneering on the part of the Turnbull Liberal Government. Just think of what Victoria could do with $10 Billion. For a start it could electrify the Ballarat line out to Melton, rehabilitate the line from Upfield to Somerton which would ease the pressure on and allow for extra services on the Broadmeadows route. Transform the Bus Network into a fully functional high frequency network instead of the dog breakfast we have now, provide extra tracks between Caulfield and Dandenong. I could go on. I just find it hard to take when the Airport isnt even adequately served by bus. As far as Im concerned, there should be only two options to be considered. Make it a V/Line service diverting, Shepparton and Bendigo services through the airport, or string up cheap trolley wire, rebuild some old trams (Victoria has plenty of them), build some tram stops and make it part of the tram networks. Michael
Yes, of course the money could be better spent. I would rather the Metro 2 tunnel. But hey, if the feds are putting up the money, Victoria might as well chip in $5 billion otherwise it will be a wasted opportunity. I don't think that they will consider diverting V/line services alone. They would have to come in addition to the Metro services. There would just be too much of a strain on the V/line trains. Doing the line properly: making it part of the train network with other stations, will have several great benefits. Less traffic on the Tullumarine Freeway, a service to the airport, reduced Skybus demand (or even better, a cheaper Skybus service), etc. Melton electrification will come fairly soon. Metro 1 will add more services on the Broadmeadows route. Upfield to Somerton will also eventually come. So will Caulfield to Dandenong quadruplication when a government wins in a landslide. It's about time something is done about the airport. It's an embarrassment to the world's most liveable city!
reubstar6
Diverting Bendigo and Seymour/Shepparton services on to the Albion corridor will allow for more services. Currently the Bendigo service shares track with the Sunbury line from Sunshine. I fail to see how diverting V/Line services through the Airport will cause strain. You could not make this up. Here is the Herald Sun complaining about the Melbourne Metro which will provide added capacity to the system costing too much and yet spending even more money on a dedicated rail service to the airport which will do nothing in the way of relieving the rest of the network.

Michael
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
...... or string up cheap trolley wire, rebuild some old trams (Victoria has plenty of them), build some tram stops and make it part of the tram networks.


Michael
mejhammers1
I don't think a tram service would work.  It may be OK for airport workers, but not for airline passengers, because:

  • Airline passengers usually have heavy luggage.  Trams are not suitable.
  • Too slow.  Airline passengers want to get to or from the airport as quickly as possible, which is where (semi) express rail comes in.

It comes down to who is the airport link primarily intended for?  Airline passengers or airport workers?

.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

...... or string up cheap trolley wire, rebuild some old trams (Victoria has plenty of them), build some tram stops and make it part of the tram networks.


Michael
I don't think a tram service would work.  It may be OK for airport workers, but not for airline passengers, because:

  • Airline passengers usually have heavy luggage.  Trams are not suitable.
  • Too slow.  Airline passengers want to get to or from the airport as quickly as possible, which is where (semi) express rail comes in.

It comes down to who is the airport link primarily intended for?  Airline passengers or airport workers?

.
Lad_Porter
Fair enough, although I would not imagine it would be hard to configure the trams so that they would have longitudinal seating and storage space for luggage. The point is that the Airport link should be done on the cheap. Diverted V/Line services, not tunneling and electrification.

Michael
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Going via Broady would only make sense if you quadruplicated the current line to Broady and ran Bendigo trains via the airport as well to free up capacity on Sunbury/Melton lines.  Is there room to do that under the Tullamarine fwy at Pascoe Vale?  And it would probably wipeout any cost savings too.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Anyway, I am quite surprised that the federal government has finally decided that Melbourne is worth spending infrastructure money on! Too bad that Turnbull's lost 30 news polls in a row. This will all stop if Abbott returns.
reubstar6
Not necessarily. If Abbott returns that will pave the way for a Labor government, who might be very happy to keep Victoria onside.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

Going via Broady would only make sense if you quadruplicated the current line to Broady and ran Bendigo trains via the airport as well to free up capacity on Sunbury/Melton lines.  Is there room to do that under the Tullamarine fwy at Pascoe Vale?  And it would probably wipeout any cost savings too.
Carnot
Which seems hideously expensive considering the RRL to Airport is already segregated, and the only cost would be an additional BG track between Albion and the junction to the Airport, followed by a dual track pair through the airport to Gisborne.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
So, according to their Website: https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable

Skybus operates every 10 mins during daytime between Southern Cross and the Airport, so 6 per hour at about 50 seats = 300 passengers an hour in each direction. Plenty of spare seats on a 6 Car Metro train.

Where are all the passengers going to materialise from to justify a train from Southern Cross with a similar frequency?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

So, according to their Website: https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable

Skybus operates every 10 mins during daytime between Southern Cross and the Airport, so 6 per hour at about 50 seats = 300 passengers an hour in each direction. Plenty of spare seats on a 6 Car Metro train.

Where are all the passengers going to materialise from to justify a train from Southern Cross with a similar frequency?
mikesyd
Totally agree if you are insisting That the Airport link should be a dedicated link serviced by Metro.

However the opportunity exists to use this link as a basis of removing capacity constraints on the Bendigo and Seymour Shepparton lines with services provided by V/Line.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I'm not a huge advocate for the airport rail however state pride will not allow Melbourne's Airport railway to be done on the cheap.

Mike.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
So, according to their Website: https://www.skybus.com.au/melbourne-city-express/timetable

Skybus operates every 10 mins during daytime between Southern Cross and the Airport, so 6 per hour at about 50 seats = 300 passengers an hour in each direction. Plenty of spare seats on a 6 Car Metro train.

Where are all the passengers going to materialise from to justify a train from Southern Cross with a similar frequency?
Totally agree if you are insisting That the Airport link should be a dedicated link serviced by Metro.

However the opportunity exists to use this link as a basis of removing capacity constraints on the Bendigo and Seymour Shepparton lines with services provided by V/Line.

Michael
mejhammers1
Yes, a V junction beyond the Airport ("Oaklands Junction" could actually mean something maybe), one way heading over to about Clarkefield, the other to around Donnybrook. Run the Bendigo and Seymour/Shepparton trains through with an Airport stop, as well as Airport trains that terminate/start from that "Oaklands Junction". It then frees up capacity on the other two lines for Metro. The line from Airport to Southern Cross needs to be Express, or maybe one stop, depending on the route that it takes.

The el Cheapo (even that would not be cheap) version would be shuttle to/from Coolaroo, which would be similar to the arrangement in Singapore.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner

Just turn right at Sunshibe and use the elevated rail scheme, just like the Dandy line and Moornda extension cheaper and simple, and be damned with all the other of options.................Lookout I just might run for Parliament...........Very Happy
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Guy is already pushing the 'via Broadmeadows' link. To save money....bugger the best solution.
ParkesHub
This route has been ruled out long ago, due to It been the slowest route and the existing line been riddled with level crossings (other options have none)
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I must say, I am really quite bemused by this talk about rail to the Airport. Even discussing spending $10 Billion for rail to the airport whilst Albury and Shepparton corridors are services by old life expired equipment that third world countries would sneer at, impending capacity constraints on the Cragieburn and Bendigo corridors and the crisis on long distance V/line services, is absolutely disgusting and nothing short of blatant electioneering on the part of the Turnbull Liberal Government.

Just think of what Victoria could do with $10 Billion. For a start it could electrify the Ballarat line out to Melton, rehabilitate the line from Upfield to Somerton which would ease the pressure on and allow for extra services on the Broadmeadows route. Transform the Bus Network into a fully functional high frequency network instead of the dog breakfast we have now, provide extra tracks between Caulfield and Dandenong. I could go on. I just find it hard to take when the Airport isnt even adequately served by bus. As far as Im concerned, there should be only two options to be considered. Make it a V/Line service diverting, Shepparton and Bendigo services through the airport, or string up cheap trolley wire, rebuild some old trams (Victoria has plenty of them), build some tram stops and make it part of the tram networks.


Michael
mejhammers1
Agree,
Mel doesn't have airport train now because its expensive, some people just don't seem to get this part.

My thinking is the absolute top end price will be around $4-5B assuming it doubles up serving other customers AND/OR solves other problems in the network as has Perth, Syd and Brisbane. But NO WAY in HELL is Melbourne going to get a dedicated airport line for $4-5B OR MORE!

again Toronto has alot in common with Melbourne and in the end so might be the final solution for rail to the airport
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
The main issue I have with Airport Rail is this, The media love it. The Politicians love it. They love it because they relate to it, not necessarily because it is the most urgent thing we need to build. That said, I still think it is needed, and I do think that it is a very good thing that it looks like we finally may see some movement on this front.

Basic sum up from today's Hun:

Option 1. Craigieburn Route
Run on existing tracks to a point North of Broadmeadows, then a branch line (at ground level) to the Airport with an underground station at the Airport

Option 2. Direct Tunnel Route
Construct a tunnel from Footscray to East Keilor, with underground stations at Victoria University (Footscray Campus), Highpoint, Maribyrnong (large new suburb to be built on old defence property), Milleara Rd (Corner of Milleara Rd and Buckley St), then run along at ground level from East Kielor to the Airport with an underground station at the Airport.

Option 3. Tunnel via Flemington Route
Utilising the existing Flemington Racecourse line, run along that to its terminus, then construct a new underground line from Flem' Racecourse to Highpoint, then along the same alignment as Option 2 from Highpoint to the Airport.

Option 4. Albion Route
Utilising the existing Sunbury line to Albion, then along a new ground level line to the Airport with an underground station at the Airport.

Options 1 through 3 will run via Southern Cross, Flinders St and the City Loop, while Option 4 will run via the Metro Tunnel, and through route out to Dandenong and beyond.

- - - - -

Option 1. There is no space for an additional 2 tracks along the Broadmeadows line, (without property acquistion at least) so any airport line train would have to squeeze between slow stopping all stations commuter trains. In other words, it would be slower than going by the freeway and not be worth doing.  

Forget about this option. It will not happen, it should not happen. I suspect it has only been added to beef up the amount of options provided.

Option 2. This is by far the most over the top expensive option, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. It does tick some boxes, it would be very fast, and it would provide coverage to the new suburb to be built in the former Military Ammunitions factory land. It would be hideously expensive though. I suspect this might fall down on cost viability.

Option 3. While this would be cheaper than option 2, it would still not be cheap. It would still require extensive tunnelling, and there is the small matter of getting from the elevated position at the Flemington Racecourse above the Maribyrnong River, across the river, and then underground before Highpoint. This would be challenging, not insurmountable, but challenging. Like with option 2, it would provide coverage to the new, as yet unnamed, suburb adjacent to Maribyrnong. Another thing to consider with this option is the capacity of the Flemington Racecourse line during the Spring Carnival. During the carnival, trains run at a very high frequency, and they are all packed full. Would there be paths for Airport trains on this line at these times?

Option 4. Still my favourite option. It would provide Sunshine as an interchange hub with multiple lines, both Country and Metro, negating the need for all people from the West, North West, etc to travel into the City 1st. It would also run through the metro tunnel and on to places in the far South East, extending its reach. While it doesn't cover the new suburb, this I believe is a more worthy route. Also, unlike options 2 and 3, it doesn't require significant tunneling, making it substantially cheaper.

- - - -

Unlikle others, I do believe it is needed, but I would love Daniel Andrews to take the oppurtunity to find a way to package up Airport rail with some other desperately needed Heavy Rail major projects.

Turnbull was clear, he has allocated $5 Billion and he expects Andrews to match it. Andrews doesn't seem likely to back away from this, so that gives us at least $10 Billion to play with. As others have said, if Option 4 (Albion Route) was selected, that shouldn't cost much more than $5 Billion. As we all know, governments always spend too much, so lets call it $7 Billion. Then the other $3 Billion could be spent on upgrading the Melton and/or Wyndham Vale lines to electric suburbans. With Quadruplication from Sunshine to Deer Park West Junction included.

The only chink in this plan of mine is I have absolutley no idea what any of this would actually cost. Especially when you consider it would be impossible to route all trains to Wyndham Vale, Melton, Sunbury and the Airport through one pair of tracks from Sunshine to the City, meaning a 2nd pair of suburban tracks would be required (making a grand total of 8 tracks along this route, 2 RRL, 2 Suburban express, 2 Suburban local, 2 DG freight), and I can't imagine this wouldn't involve some tunneling of its own, especially through Sunshine and Footscray.

This gets me back to what I said, all of the way at the beginning of this post, as much as Airport rail is needed, so are many other things, such as the upgrade of the Wyndham Vale and Melton lines to a suburban standard.
  UP4014 Beginner

What does everyone here think about using a Monorail aligned with major roads along the route (not the Freeway), stations at VU and Highpoint along the way? Something like this. I can't think of a single downside

Scott Morrison said this morning, I'm no engineer, but...it won't be a monorail.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Ah thanks for that. Link: http://www.abc.net.au/radio/melbourne/programs/mornings/scott-morrison/9643774 @ 5:09. He explicitly didn't rule it out, but he did laugh at the idea.



What does everyone here think about using a Monorail aligned with major roads along the route (not the Freeway), stations at VU and Highpoint along the way? Something like this. I can't think of a single downside

Scott Morrison said this morning, I'm no engineer, but...it won't be a monorail.

Mike.
The Simpson's Episode on Monorail technology really wasn't that far from the truth! its 1960's futuristic technology that never really achieved what it was hoped for. Small capacity, slow speeds and costly and complex junction infrastructure for changing lines.

I just hope Sydney can sort out the LR construction drama down George Street pretty quick or forget any chance of such a project being repeated any time soon and follow the Sydney Monorail.
RTT_Rules


The Simpsons Episode was hilarious however Monorail has come leaps and bounds.

Sydney Monorail was a Tourist Monorail, not intended for actual Public Transport.

A better example to look at is the Bombardier INNOVIA 300 Monorail. 1m/sec^2 acceleration, 80km/h top speed, wider than our current trains/trams, a 7-car/86m train can hold 1002 PAX (@6 PAX/sq. m). Completely Automatic operation. In service in Sao Paulo Brazil and still being rolled out in Thailand, China and Saudi Arabia.

They can change tracks just fine.

http://www.monorails.org/tMspages/TPInnovia300.html
https://www.monorailsaustralia.com.au/trains.html

Monorail Beams are low cost and allow tight corners, we could get the route we want at a fraction of the cost of total land acquisition, tunneling or Heavy Skyrail.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I must say, I am really quite bemused by this talk about rail to the Airport. Even discussing spending $10 Billion for rail to the airport whilst Albury and Shepparton corridors are services by old life expired equipment that third world countries would sneer at, impending capacity constraints on the Cragieburn and Bendigo corridors and the crisis on long distance V/line services, is absolutely disgusting and nothing short of blatant electioneering on the part of the Turnbull Liberal Government.

Just think of what Victoria could do with $10 Billion. For a start it could electrify the Ballarat line out to Melton, rehabilitate the line from Upfield to Somerton which would ease the pressure on and allow for extra services on the Broadmeadows route. Transform the Bus Network into a fully functional high frequency network instead of the dog breakfast we have now, provide extra tracks between Caulfield and Dandenong. I could go on. I just find it hard to take when the Airport isnt even adequately served by bus. As far as Im concerned, there should be only two options to be considered. Make it a V/Line service diverting, Shepparton and Bendigo services through the airport, or string up cheap trolley wire, rebuild some old trams (Victoria has plenty of them), build some tram stops and make it part of the tram networks.


Michael
Agree,
Mel doesn't have airport train now because its expensive, some people just don't seem to get this part.

My thinking is the absolute top end price will be around $4-5B assuming it doubles up serving other customers AND/OR solves other problems in the network as has Perth, Syd and Brisbane. But NO WAY in HELL is Melbourne going to get a dedicated airport line for $4-5B OR MORE!

again Toronto has alot in common with Melbourne and in the end so might be the final solution for rail to the airport
RTT_Rules
Precisely. The Airport link can only be justified if it solves other problems. Spending $10 Billion on a dedicated link is ridiculous. I do not get the obsession of a dedicated link to the Airport. An efficient service provided by V/Line from Bendigo, Seymour and Shepparton should be suffice.

Michael
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
The Politicians may love it, but you can bet that apart from a 'photo opportunity' none of then would use it when they needed to go to the Airport, be it for a 'business trip (aka junket)' or a holiday.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

There’s no doubt about the LNP; State or Federal

$10B - $15B project:
$5B from the Federal Government.
$2B from the sale of Victoria’s share of the Snowy Hydro.
Where does the other $3B to $8B come from?

Sounds more like a scheme to quarantine Victoria’s Snowy Hydro (and other) money so that it can’t be spent on other vote-winning projects for the approaching election. As for Matthew Guy’s dream of the Federal Government totally footing the bill for a route via Essendon …………………………………………………………..

It’ll be interesting to see where the $5B actually comes from (or if it will still exist after November, 2018). $500M of the $3B promised by the Abbott Federal Government for the now defunct East-West road link was originally allocated for improvements to the Metropolitan Ring Road. The $500M was returned to the ring road when the East-West link died, thereby enabling the Feds to claim $1500M of contributions for the same $500M ($500M for the original project, $500M when it was shifted to the East-West link and $500M when it was returned to the ring road). The fiddling with the Regional Rail Link by the previous State LNP Government to move funds to road projects doesn’t augur well.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland



Precisely. The Airport link can only be justified if it solves other problems. Spending $10 Billion on a dedicated link is ridiculous. I do not get the obsession of a dedicated link to the Airport. An efficient service provided by V/Line from Bendigo, Seymour and Shepparton should be suffice.

Michael
mejhammers1
Communities of Bendigo, Seymour and Shepparton would be over the moon about the prospects of having a direct rail link to Victoria's main International airport.

The Victorian Government have made It very clear that regional Victoria has to be part of the airport link.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

How are the seymour/shepparton lines going to have a direct connection?  This doesn't make much sense to me
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

How are the seymour/shepparton lines going to have a direct connection?  This doesn't make much sense to me
tazzer96
My assumption has always been that they'd run via the Albion-Jacana, but not the airport.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Running via albion-jacana was the "preferred" option but with 10 billion on the table I would expect the direct tunnel option.  But even running via the albion-jacana line won't deliver a direct connection to the airport.

With the metro tunnel taking away roughly 1/3 of trains off the craigieburn line, the flemington route option also seems pretty good.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The Politicians may love it, but you can bet that apart from a 'photo opportunity' none of then would use it when they needed to go to the Airport, be it for a 'business trip (aka junket)' or a holiday.
mikesyd

Don't necessarily believe everything you think...

Minister Allan was on ABC radio this afternoon describing her use of the Sydney Airport line...

Mike.
  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
The Politicians may love it, but you can bet that apart from a 'photo opportunity' none of then would use it when they needed to go to the Airport, be it for a 'business trip (aka junket)' or a holiday.

Don't necessarily believe everything you think...

Minister Allan was on ABC radio this afternoon describing her use of the Sydney Airport line...

Mike.
The Vinelander
Ah yes, but not in the State that she serves. I bet she didn't use PT after getting off her plane on her return to Tullamarine.

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