Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  david harvey Junior Train Controller

Location: Bairnsdale
The thread is now 37 pages long and nobody is any the wiser about where it might or might not go.
Valvegear
How true Mr Valvegear .Your post  has been the most correct contribution so far. The air port rail link will not get built if that cost is $15 Billion in todays money. What will the cost be in 2027!

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland

And yes, i know we are mostly supporters of rail here but this is a classic Utopia scenario where governments set up bodies like IV and IA to de-politicise the planning process and then completely ignore their recommendations.

BrentonGolding
No Government will ever de-politicise the planning and project delivery process.

The marginal seats will get the big promises / commitments with cream and a cherry on top.

Safe seats (especially safe opposition) will have to fight over what ever crumbs are left.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

If this is the plan and I hope it is not. $8 - 13 Billion for what? A re config of Sunshine and 10Km on track in a Greenfields environment, a few bridges and a station at the Airport. What is the other $10 Billion for.

It is sad that the government came to power promising to deliver infrastructure and it did early on with the LXRA, Mernda and MM1. Now it is more about trying to tick boxes at the lowest price.
  • Fast Rail to the regions has been talked about since last year, no money or talk of it since.
  • Western rail got money for a business case to tell us what we already knew, no real plan to get Metro services to Melton or WV.
  • Money for works at Clifton Hill and Newport in the last budget but not a word about what the works are.
  • Waurn Ponds is still a basket case. Murry Basin fell to pieces.
  • Fishermans Bend Renewal and MM2 have been scratched as If they never existed.
  • All silent on Hurstbridge Stage 2
  • Regional Rail Revival seems to stand for Ballarat Line Upgrade, besides the Avon River Bridge there has not been much work on any of there other annoyed projects.
  • Its Flagship Westgate tunnel is poisoned
  • MM1 many billions over budget.


Its now realised it doesn't have the money or the man power to knock it all off. The Razor Gang has been called to the MARL project and if news is true Victoria will suffer the nastiest Airport Link. With future generations starved of rail services and future governments throwing good money after bad to complete what should of been done now.

A great shame this governments 'getting things done' mantra has become.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Basically In a nutshell the State Government has no Idea how to manage the State's finances, with cost blow outs and project descoping happening left right and centre.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Exactly the same thing’s happening in NSW. It’s a symptom of a broader malaise. A couple of decades deskilling and outsourcing the public service has left both governments in a position where they do not have the machinery or institutional knowledge to remain in control of a major stimulus program.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Exactly the same thing’s happening in NSW. It’s a symptom of a broader malaise. A couple of decades deskilling and outsourcing the public service has left both governments in a position where they do not have the machinery or institutional knowledge to remain in control of a major stimulus program.
potatoinmymouth
oh, I forgot, in the past the govt departments never made mistakes.....

Basically govts now operate like big industry, they don't major projects in house, its all outsourced.
  Upven Station Master

If this is the plan and I hope it is not. $8 - 13 Billion for what? A re config of Sunshine and 10Km on track in a Greenfields environment, a few bridges and a station at the Airport. What is the other $10 Billion for.

It is sad that the government came to power promising to deliver infrastructure and it did early on with the LXRA, Mernda and MM1. Now it is more about trying to tick boxes at the lowest price.
  • Fast Rail to the regions has been talked about since last year, no money or talk of it since.
  • Western rail got money for a business case to tell us what we already knew, no real plan to get Metro services to Melton or WV.
  • Money for works at Clifton Hill and Newport in the last budget but not a word about what the works are.
  • Waurn Ponds is still a basket case. Murry Basin fell to pieces.
  • Fishermans Bend Renewal and MM2 have been scratched as If they never existed.
  • All silent on Hurstbridge Stage 2
  • Regional Rail Revival seems to stand for Ballarat Line Upgrade, besides the Avon River Bridge there has not been much work on any of there other annoyed projects.
  • Its Flagship Westgate tunnel is poisoned
  • MM1 many billions over budget.


Its now realised it doesn't have the money or the man power to knock it all off. The Razor Gang has been called to the MARL project and if news is true Victoria will suffer the nastiest Airport Link. With future generations starved of rail services and future governments throwing good money after bad to complete what should of been done now.

A great shame this governments 'getting things done' mantra has become.
Lockie91
This is a discussion regarding the airport link, not "grievances I have with the State Government that could be resolved with a cursory internet search".

Simple reality is; any proposed route is only that, proposed. It'll be a while before anything is even close to being 'finalised'. The Age and the Herald are both stirring up mild controversy; see Ballarat Courier for a more level headed response.

https://www.thecourier.com.au/story/6620937/government-claims-fast-rail-still-the-aim-but-opposition-grows-to-non-tunnel-option/?cs=62
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

@Upven

This is a discussion regarding MARL and all its aspects. One of those is the governments ability to plan & build it. As such past or current performance on other major transport projects are relevant. If you would like to rebuke some of the points I have made...

Secondly this all sounds a bit like an old fashioned media beat up by the government. Leak details of the ‘less favourable’ plan let the public and the media get up in arms about it. In a week release the ‘real’ plan and been seen as listening to the outcry.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-airport-urges-dedicated-rail-line-tunnel-to-cut-congestion-20200209-p53z60.html
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Basically In a nutshell the State Government has no Idea how to manage the State's finances, with cost blow outs and project descoping happening left right and centre.
Nightfire

Starting to look like this is the case but why?

Is Victoria relying too much on contract planners and builders rather than taking the entire planning of a project in house as was the case.
  chomper Junior Train Controller

I'm beginning to think the cost numbers being thrown about are being thrown about so that the MARL doesn't get built.
  Upven Station Master

@Upven

This is a discussion regarding MARL and all its aspects. One of those is the governments ability to plan & build it. As such past or current performance on other major transport projects are relevant. If you would like to rebuke some of the points I have made...

Secondly this all sounds a bit like an old fashioned media beat up by the government. Leak details of the ‘less favourable’ plan let the public and the media get up in arms about it. In a week release the ‘real’ plan and been seen as listening to the outcry.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/melbourne-airport-urges-dedicated-rail-line-tunnel-to-cut-congestion-20200209-p53z60.html
Lockie91
Gladly:
  • Fast Rail to the regions has been talked about since last year, no money or talk of it since.
$100 million committed to developing the preferred route and detailed planning. (source, source, source, source) Included in this is detailed planning for the Melton electrification but to you it's either no money or "stuff we already know".


  • Money for works at Clifton Hill and Newport in the last budget but not a word about what the works are.

Source?

  • Fishermans Bend Renewal and MM2 have been scratched as If they never existed.
Source? Fishermens Bend is still being planned, the new secondary school was fully funded in the latest budget. (source) Independent third party review of MM2 (Parkville to Newport) found it would cost $8b to $13b and that's not taking into consideration extending this all the way to Clifton Hill. Stations $420m each. (source) Perhaps the silence is because we cannot afford this at the moment, especially when we're competing with every other major city in Australia for limited resources and suitable labour pool.

  • All silent on Hurstbridge Stage 2

Here's the community update for you dated January 2020: source
You can register for email updates: here
  • Regional Rail Revival seems to stand for Ballarat Line Upgrade, besides the Avon River Bridge there has not been much work on any of there other annoyed projects.
As stated in other threads these projects are out to tender. View tender here. View planned Gippsland line improvements here. The North East Line was a topic of discussion earlier this month as funding to improve track quality, here, here.

  • MM1 many billions over budget.
Just like Sydney Metro? Again, it's all speculation until there's confirmation. Auditor General's office has only confirmed over budget of $150 million. Nothing concrete since, only media hyperbole.


Reason these projects are going to go over-budget and will not be just sloppily signed up to:
New roads and other major projects face delays thanks to a lack of skilled workers and resources
Infrastructure spending blitz puts defence projects at risk
  Upven Station Master

I'm beginning to think the cost numbers being thrown about are being thrown about so that the MARL doesn't get built.
chomper

Perhaps that's why the private consortium have offered $2b additional funding today.


I can definitely see the Victorian Government trying to avoid any type of outcome reminiscent of Sydney/Green Square/Mascot with station access fees making it uncompetitive with Uber/Taxi etc.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I'm beginning to think the cost numbers being thrown about are being thrown about so that the MARL doesn't get built.

Perhaps that's why the private consortium have offered $2b additional funding today.


I can definitely see the Victorian Government trying to avoid any type of outcome reminiscent of Sydney/Green Square/Mascot with station access fees making it uncompetitive with Uber/Taxi etc.
Upven
I was about to reply to Lockie's post that it was also possible that the Government is trying to flush the Airport Consortium out for either more money or a reduction in the extortionate fees being banded about (if indeed they are correct) for use of the tunnell.

Interesting times
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria
I was about to reply to Lockie's post that it was also possible that the Government is trying to flush the Airport Consortium out for either more money or a reduction in the extortionate fees being banded about (if indeed they are correct) for use of the tunnell.

Interesting times
BrentonGolding
Shows how good the initial bid by the consortium must have been for them if they are willing to splash an extra $2 Billion.

I'm sure there's still a lot in it for them even for $7 Billion.  It will be like CityLink all over again, the Government giving away a monopoly which turns out to be a licence to print money for year upon year.

Ross
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm beginning to think the cost numbers being thrown about are being thrown about so that the MARL doesn't get built.
chomper

Usually how things get done in Victoria.  This is going on way too long and it is now Daniel Andrew's who is looking the fool.  Needs to be signed and up and running asap which it will be before the next election. However as my learned friend @Duncs would atest, that these days does not always get you re-elected.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
More press and pressure for a tunnel from Bendigo and the Rail Futures Institute. https://t.co/U0Bhq4faHA?amp=1

How would Bendigo passengers be disadvantaged by lack of a tunnel as they would be changing trains at Sunshine for the airport?  I just don't get it.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
More press and pressure for a tunnel from Bendigo and the Rail Futures Institute. https://t.co/U0Bhq4faHA?amp=1

How would Bendigo passengers be disadvantaged by lack of a tunnel as they would be changing trains at Sunshine for the airport?  I just don't get it.
bevans
It's in the article

"Mr Hearsch said the Rail Futures Institute put forward a proposal to the government for a connection on the Bendigo line between Clarkefield and Tullamarine.

"Instead of going through the suburban system, it would allow Bendigo trains to go straight to the airport," Mr Hearsch said. "It would benefit Bendigo because it would be about 30 minutes quicker to the airport."

Obviously Bendigo pax would be way better off if the line ran via the Airport but that looks highly unlikely however cramming more and more trains into the existing corridor between Sunshine and Spencer St will mean less chance of more services on the Bendigo line (which is supposed to be going 20/40/5 in my lifetime.......) while the existing services will have an even greater chance of being delayed by congestion than they do already.

I (along with many other RP users) get the V/Line feed via the app and/or by email. The number of Bendigo services listed as delayed by "congestion in the Metro area" is eye opening if you haven't experienced it yourself. And yes, I know, Gippsland and Seymour / Shepp have the same problems but they don't have the RRL which was supposed to 'fix' this problem for Geelong, Ballarat and Bendigo trains.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I understand that component BG of the want to divert the bendigo line via the airport  but believe that was not going to happen.  From this perspective it is better for Bendigo users perhaps. Appreciate your input.

I was focused on the tunnel between the city and Sunshine v the above ground tracks between the two.  This to my mind does not impact Bendigo and Ballarat users and if they were serious this airport work could start now building the albion to airport line (as mentioned above) getting the project started.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
More press and pressure for a tunnel from Bendigo and the Rail Futures Institute. https://t.co/U0Bhq4faHA?amp=1

How would Bendigo passengers be disadvantaged by lack of a tunnel as they would be changing trains at Sunshine for the airport?  I just don't get it.
bevans
I do get it.

Its the AirRail group spreading their BS far and wide, to try and embarrass the govt into getting what they (AirRail) want.

Its the same story all the past week.
If they don't build a tunnel then we can't get more service to Ballarat/Geelong/Maryborough/Portland/Mildura/Bendigo/Hamilton/[insert name here].

It's all bollocks. @Brenton has already explained what the Bendigo example is really about. Just John Hearch beating his usual drum, 'cause he can't get his pet idea going anywhere.

cheers
John
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I understand that component BG of the want to divert the bendigo line via the airport  but believe that was not going to happen.  From this perspective it is better for Bendigo users perhaps. Appreciate your input.

I was focused on the tunnel between the city and Sunshine v the above ground tracks between the two.  This to my mind does not impact Bendigo and Ballarat users and if they were serious this airport work could start now building the albion to airport line (as mentioned above) getting the project started.
bevans
AARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!! Did you even read my post? I covered that!!!!!!!

More trains on same number of tracks = less paths for Bendigo and other services. Simples!
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

I'm beginning to think the cost numbers being thrown about are being thrown about so that the MARL doesn't get built.

Usually how things get done in Victoria.  This is going on way too long and it is now Daniel Andrew's who is looking the fool.  Needs to be signed and up and running asap which it will be before the next election. However as my learned friend @Duncs would atest, that these days does not always get you re-elected.
bevans
Agreed Bevans!

But the smart thing to do is to start the Albion to Tullamarine section now, integrated (temporarily) with the current above ground network. Then build the tunnel from SCS to Sunshine.

BTW I have used the London Paddington to Heathrow airport link. It takes 15 - 20 minutes, has a frequency of 4 TPH so one every 15 minutes. Pus and get this, it runs almost all the way overground on the existing western rail corridor out of London Paddington. So it shares the track effectively with other services.
  Lockie91 Chief Train Controller

@Duncs & @bevans

Can you please explain how exisiting tracks between Sunshine and Footscray will Handel 6TPH to the Airport, 14TPH out to Sunbury, 6+ to Melton plus the envisaged 3 TPH to Bendigo?

Even with the old MM1 plans there will be 23TPH between Sunshine and the Tunnel portals on day one operations. Plus 3TPH to Bendigo, plus Airport is 33TPH. Zero room for any growth into the future.

The foam from the RFI aside (can’t see Bendigo going via the airport any sooner than me being in a wooden box) The PRIMARY issue is between Sunshine and the City.

The RFI AirTrain plan also included Seymour via the Airport as well. It’s a great plan and gold plating of the highest order. If the government had an unlimited bucket of money I’m sure RFI would be incorporated into the DOT.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Really @Lockie91 where did you learn arithmetic . 33 LOL.

On you own figures,  MM1 to Sunshine = 14 Sunbury, 6 Melton, 6 MARL = 26.TPH ( MAXIMUM AT PEAK TIME). Well within the abilty of High Capacity Signal being installed.

Bendigo do NOT share these tracks, it's RRL.
Now Sunshine to Albion does need some reconfigure to untangle the spagetti between MARL/Sunbury/Bendigo/Freight. Not a huge task in the scheme of things.

cheers
John
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Really @Lockie91 where did you learn arithmetic . 33 LOL.

On you own figures,  MM1 to Sunshine = 14 Sunbury, 6 Melton, 6 MARL = 26.TPH ( MAXIMUM AT PEAK TIME). Well within the abilty of High Capacity Signal being installed.

Bendigo do NOT share these tracks, it's RRL.
Now Sunshine to Albion does need some reconfigure to untangle the spagetti between MARL/Sunbury/Bendigo/Freight. Not a huge task in the scheme of things.

cheers
John
justarider
He said existing tracks, he didn't specify suburban or RRL

RRL is already at capacity during peaks so there needs to be space found for more planned services there. Easy right? Electrify Melton and run those via MM1 = your 26 TPH. I thought that Wyndham Vale was in the offing for sparking and running via MM1. That frees up a few more paths on the RRL but now you are at 32 TPH on the MM1 pair if the WV frequency is to match Melton.

Then you need to find paths for extra Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong services that are planned. This will eat up most of the paths on the RRL that you have freed up by moving Melton and WV onto MM1. 3TPH for Bendigo and Ballarat is planned. Is it 6 TPH for Geetroit? If you leave WV on the RRL that takes you up to 18 TPH*

Then lord help us if anything goes wrong, you have pretty much zero padding to divert services onto other lines in case of a failed train or other problem. IMO it is all way too tight between Sunshine and Footscray and is just a recipe for constant delays and problems.

*back of the envelope stuff here so let me know if I have made a mistake
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Really @Lockie91 where did you learn arithmetic . 33 LOL.

On you own figures,  MM1 to Sunshine = 14 Sunbury, 6 Melton, 6 MARL = 26.TPH ( MAXIMUM AT PEAK TIME). Well within the abilty of High Capacity Signal being installed.

Bendigo do NOT share these tracks, it's RRL.
Now Sunshine to Albion does need some reconfigure to untangle the spagetti between MARL/Sunbury/Bendigo/Freight. Not a huge task in the scheme of things.

cheers
John
He said existing tracks, he didn't specify suburban or RRL

RRL is already at capacity during peaks so there needs to be space found for more planned services there. Easy right? Electrify Melton and run those via MM1 = your 26 TPH. I thought that Wyndham Vale was in the offing for sparking and running via MM1. That frees up a few more paths on the RRL but now you are at 32 TPH on the MM1 pair if the WV frequency is to match Melton.

Then you need to find paths for extra Bendigo, Ballarat and Geelong services that are planned. This will eat up most of the paths on the RRL that you have freed up by moving Melton and WV onto MM1. 3TPH for Bendigo and Ballarat is planned. Is it 6 TPH for Geetroit? If you leave WV on the RRL that takes you up to 18 TPH*

Then lord help us if anything goes wrong, you have pretty much zero padding to divert services onto other lines in case of a failed train or other problem. IMO it is all way too tight between Sunshine and Footscray and is just a recipe for constant delays and problems.

*back of the envelope stuff here so let me know if I have made a mistake
BrentonGolding
OK Brenton, let's accept that Lockie meant share the 33 TPH between 2 sets of tracks.
That's REALLY GOOD light usage, but of course a bunch of hyperbole.

Down to in tacks, your back of envelope is OK as far as it goes,
BUT this discussion is about MARL (you know, the extra line to Airport)
NOT, let's build and extra pair of sparky lines for Wyndham Vale.

When (if) Melton gets it's own spark line, then those trains come OFF RRL.
Maybe Ballarat will get some of those slots back, MAYBE.

When (if) WV get's it's own spark line, that's another discussion about how to get into the CBD.
Agreed that squeezing the extra 3TPH (grow to 6 ?) into The Sunbury/MM1 track definitely won't work, and the time to think about an extra pair to look after all the growth from the west.
Again takes pressure off RRL, giving scope maybe for more Geetroit trains.

Alas, I don't hold much hope for any sizable increase for Bendigo in the foreseeable future.
Until such time as a dedicated path is found between the rural fringe and Sunshine, no scope - you're going to be stuck behind the 14 TPH Sunbury SAS.
From what I can see, the nasty bottleneck that forces the V/los to wait and wait and wait, is still the half hearted effort done on RRL (how many at grade cross-overs are there ?) , which the re-work for MARL should(must) fix.

cheers
John

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