Why Australia's power prices are going up?

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia


We sell our coal overseas and we are not allowed to use it here for cheap power.

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
What do the "Watermelons" (aka Greens) got to say about this ?
  allan Chief Commissioner

You'll find both sides of the argument at https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11396455.htm
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
What do the "Watermelons" (aka Greens) got to say about this ?
Nightfire

Rednecks will believe anything they're told.

Roberts is a bona fide nutter who probably thinks the world is till flat, but believe what you want.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville


We sell our coal overseas and we are not allowed to use it here for cheap power.
bevans

Please list the regulations that say it cannot be used in Australia.

The only coal plants to have been closed are those that are no longer profitable.

The coast of building new coal fired power stations to replace them makes coal uneconomic and therefore not 'cheap'.

And of course a dose of good old fashioned racism thrown in will always win an argument with the lower socio economic orders Razz
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
The only coal plants to have been closed are those that are no longer profitable.
bingley hall
Direct subsides to 'green' energy total $2.8bn p/a; indirect subsidies even more. Would this be a factor in coal being 'not economical'?

The other answer to the equation is: 'gold plating' the privatised networks; indemnifying them against their own bad maintenance (Black Saturday bushfire legal costs ultimately borne by the VIC government) and incredibly expensive gas because of the east coast gas cartel in operation. Electricity is the most expensive in the world in South Australia and it's going to get even more expensive in years to come as coal is phased out because of an idea.

And as pointed out by Allan, we've been here before - everyone knows what everyone else thinks on this board.
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1205102-flat-earth-theory
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
God help us, did I see Malcolm Roberts being quoted!

He was an embarrassment and good riddance from parliament.

While he demanded empirical evidence on climate change, particularly with Professor Brian Cox on Q&A, he couldn't provide empirical evidence at the High Court on his citizenship.

I take his opinion with a grain of salt, as he also have an interest in promoting coal mines as an ex Coal Mine Manager. I hope his UFO has taken him to another planet so he can live comfortably there and leave us alone. He always reminded me of the dude that Louis Theroux interviewed, that claimed he channelled aliens.

Back to the point, I agree like free trade Australia shouldn't be the first to lead and cop it in the neck. However he kind of ignores what most of the OECD are doing it already.

My view is that coal is part of the essential mix for power provision. It is not the only source, just like solar, hydro, wind etc.

My view is that if we truly want to stop spewing crap into the air, we need to adopt nuclear.

Yes everyone quotes Chernobyl and 3 mile island. But my Vic 20 from the 1980s is also redundant. technology moves on. the only issue is NIMBY not just the power plant but the locating a suitable nuclear waste repository. We do have the ability, but not the willingness.

To the man made climate change sceptics, all I will say irrespective if you think there is man made or not, accelerated climate change, is it ok to grow the amount of air pollution into the atmosphere?

I think we need to remove the focus on carbon and focus on air pollution. You have seen how China has reacted following the increasingly worsening air quality over there. they have reacted to calm the masses, as they were becoming restless over it.

Oh, Mr Roberts also didn't mention the growth of renewable energy there either. I guess it doesn't help his argument.
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
Direct subsides to 'green' energy total $2.8bn p/a; indirect subsidies even more. Would this be a factor in coal being 'not economical'?
don_dunstan
I am not anti coal, but if you truly want to compare what about the direct subsidies for coal mining? Such as the diesel fuel excise exemption? Remove those and we would see it dwarf those to renewable.
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
This suggests China should have three stacks in the 'after' box.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=33092
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Direct subsides to 'green' energy total $2.8bn p/a; indirect subsidies even more. Would this be a factor in coal being 'not economical'?
I am not anti coal, but if you truly want to compare what about the direct subsidies for coal mining? Such as the diesel fuel excise exemption? Remove those and we would see it dwarf those to renewable.
Big J
That's hardly a subsidy, heavy industry that doesn't operate on roads is not required to pay the road tax component on diesel.

Open to correction, but I believe the following don't pay, mining, off-road manufacturing vehicles an fuel for energy generation, farming, shipping, RAIL.

Anyway, the impact would be minor and considering the price of power at the moment, not the smartest thing to apply at this time.
  Big J Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Paradise


We sell our coal overseas and we are not allowed to use it here for cheap power.
bevans
Umm according to the empirical evidence black coal generation has decreased by a massive, wait for it...... 2.1%
https://www.energy.gov.au/sites/g/files/net3411/f/energy-update-report-2017.pdf

Hardly 50% that his cartoon claimed.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Spent last two weeks travelling round industrial China, 5 cities and 8 factories, all carbon product related. At the same time flew over or drive past more coal fired power stations that Australia has ever owed.

Overall impression, do not under estimate the cleanliness of China, every thing is green, even parts of the desert are being "Greened", the ski is very much blue, including Bejing and most coal fired power stations are running on reduced output with no visible emissions. Even the ones is the desert used closed loop cooling systems to save water.

Most of the factories we visited have govt installed cameras and other monitors on the stacks and finding a stack with a visible particulate emission is hard.

Yes the countryside is also dotted with wind turbines and hills covered in solar panels.

Basically China's cleanlyness puts Australia to shame, but they still rely on coal.


Meanwhile I still visit India usually once a year for work and it remains a "sh_t" hole of pollution. The Himalaya does a nice job at keeping this sh_t atmosphere out of China, for which they are grateful.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
THE UK has just gone nine days without any substantial power being generated from wind: Bloomberg.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Some MP's actually have some common sense - MP Craig Kelly talking to Ray Hadley last week on 2GB:

Liberal backbencher Craig Kelly claims more than $50 billion spent on renewable energy subsidies could’ve been invested into Australian coal-fired power stations...

...Mr Kelly tells Ray Hadley the cost of subsidies is being passed onto the consumer in the form of higher electricity prices.

“We’ve spent over $50 billion subsidising renewables, and that’s been added onto everyone’s electricity bill.

“We could’ve actually reconstructed our entire fleet of coal-fired power stations… and had $20 billion to put into the bank.”

Mr Kelly can’t see the sense in sending coal overseas for other countries to use.

“There’s over a thousand coal-fired power stations being built around the world, it seems completely illogical that we are exporting record amounts of Australian coal… but yet there’s are feeling we can’t use it here.”

Crazy green ideology leading to the complete de-industrialisation of our country; we'll all be living in grass yurts soon just how they want it.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Crazy green ideology leading to the complete de-industrialisation of our country; we'll all be living in grass yurts soon just how they want it.
don_dunstan"
I think I know the answer, but what is a yurt?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Crazy green ideology leading to the complete de-industrialisation of our country; we'll all be living in grass yurts soon just how they want it.
I think I know the answer, but what is a yurt?
Valvegear
Little grass hut sort of a thing.
  apw5910 Deputy Commissioner

Location: Location: Location.
Crazy green ideology leading to the complete de-industrialisation of our country; we'll all be living in grass yurts soon just how they want it.
I think I know the answer, but what is a yurt?
Little grass hut sort of a thing.
don_dunstan
I think a yurt is actually covered in animal skin. Which probably makes it somewhat less than green Razz
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Crazy green ideology leading to the complete de-industrialisation of our country; we'll all be living in grass yurts soon just how they want it.
I think I know the answer, but what is a yurt?
Little grass hut sort of a thing.
I think a yurt is actually covered in animal skin. Which probably makes it somewhat less than green Razz
apw5910
Think teepee but more insulated and more sturdy.  And with a (flued) fire in them the temperature can become stifling...
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
While China is indeed building RE at a fast rate, they won't let the population sit in the dark or expose its industry to uneconomic power prices and hence building a few hundred coal power stations.

Through all this all the state govt forgot first rule of politics. Cause no harm.ie build RE all you like but it should not affect neither the power price not availability.

While there are no road blocks to build coal power stations in Oz. No one can do it on Australian fiance or indeed almost any other finance source as it's considered high risk. This is because our respective state and fed govts ha e lowered their standards to that of a developing nature and hence no one trust's them. JG's about face on CO2 tax is case in point.

You want a 2400MW coal fired power station to replace Liddel on private finance, you will have them lined up to bid. But you will first need to get the Fed and NSW govt and opposition leaders to declare in public and sign that they will not apply punitive taxes or levies for the life of the plant.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Resurrecting this thread simply because of its title. It's all about PRICES.

The following article should make a few people crawl back under their rocks. Regardless of the bent of the author, the fact remains that renewables do NOT result in an increase of the wholesale price.

Comparing fig.1 and fig.2, it is clearly seen that the bulk of large scale investments in renewables occurred AFTER the wholesale price had already risen steeply, and it has gradually fallen since:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/turnbull-was-knifed-by-a-lie-renewables-are-already-bringing-prices-down-67013/
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Resurrecting this thread simply because of its title. It's all about PRICES.

The following article should make a few people crawl back under their rocks. Regardless of the bent of the author, the fact remains that renewables do NOT result in an increase of the wholesale price.

Comparing fig.1 and fig.2, it is clearly seen that the bulk of large scale investments in renewables occurred AFTER the wholesale price had already risen steeply, and it has gradually fallen since:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/turnbull-was-knifed-by-a-lie-renewables-are-already-bringing-prices-down-67013/
DirtyBallast
No correct.

As the article said, Australia's wholesale power prices have been impacted by bad govt policy in providing direction, regardless whether the govt is pro or against RE.

However the fact remains, reliable 24/7 supply of dispatch-able electricity is still more expensive when sourced from wind and solar. I'm not talking cost of installed per MW, in this gas Wind and PV solar can often undercut coal, but only when the wind is blowing and/or sun shining, so as a back up you need costly alt power sources and/or potentially longer HV lines to place your RE plant in the right location. As you can see in the case of Sydney, the city is basically ringed my major coal power stations which only transmit 100-150km to the end user. Although in some cases coal must also be remote, as was Northern in SA.

if you need evidence of what is cheaper, simply look at the large scale energy intensive heavy industry. For example one of the world's most energy intensive industries, aluminium smelting, not one runs off wind or solar (GM of Tomago stated similar recently on the radio).

The heavy industrial sector buys power in bulk, at high voltage and usually requires 24/7/365 supply with minimal variance to the load, aluminium operates with 99% load factor and cannot tolerate outages exceeding more than 3 h. Hence its very price sensitive to wholesale power prices. Domestic consumers pay nearly double for HV transmission and LV distribution than what they actually pay for power generation, so they are far less sensitive to whole sale power price rises. For example a lot of consumers are complaining, but the average increase is around $10/wk for last 5 years in total.

The article is interesting, its also written by a very biased author who has selectively choose their data.

So, should we still crawl back under a rock?

And for the record, I actually believe support RE and its current practical and financial limitations.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I'm sure this is of interest to some, certainly off-shore wind farming provides a more reliable (not reliable) source of wind energy.

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/06/uk/largest-offshore-wind-farm-irish-sea-intl/index.html
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Interesting stats from South Australia of late:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-takes-centre-stage-in-south-australia-becoming-no-1-energy-source-in-middle-of-day-68689/

South Australia is entering a new phase of its transition towards a 100 per cent renewable energy grid, with solar starting to become the biggest contributor to the state’s grid in the middle of the day.

Three times over the past week, the share of solar – both rooftop and utility-scale – has been at around 40 per cent during the midday hours, relegating gas and wind, which had previously fought over the number one spot, to second and third position.

And this:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-overtakes-brown-coal-in-mid-day-power-and-keeps-prices-down-43149/
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
I don't have a rooftop array and I'm paying 40 cents a kilowatt hour for my electricity - which is the highest domestic electricity price in the world. Compare this to an average utility price in the southern United States of around 15 cents per kilowatt hour.

I don't have enough swear-words for the idiocy of making our grid unreliable and dependent on fully imported hardware to run it while I get ripped off every single day providing massive subsidies for this fraud.

I'm the captive grid user who is paying for this policy and I'm not happy.

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