Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
After that section is complete, maybe then a proper Airport - Watergardens - Caroline Springs - Tarneit - Werribee section may happen.

Remember, the original announcement did not have it complete until 2050.

meaning a Broadmeadows - Werribee trip is a transfer at Airport and Sunshine

I would have thought to get from Broadmeadows to Werribee you would just continue to change trains at North Melbourne.
Gman_86
Agree re Airport > Werribee, I wouldn't have thought that the demand for the service would  justify the costs ATM but the case should look better in 15 > 20 years with all the development out West

Re the change at NM that makes good sense although a direct service with limited stops would be a fair bit quicker. However as above I just can't see the justification for the expense right now, it makes far more sense to build the sections where most demand is first and then add on as required

Airport > Werribee would also open up an opportunity to run Geelong > Melbourne Airport services depending on gauge, rollingstock etc etc perhaps even via Avalon to give max choice to passengers

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  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
It's staring right at you in the face - the north-western section of the SRL will be the airport rail link which will be complete before 2030.  Everyone needs to give up on stupid fantasies of the line that will be part of the northern section (likely the last to be built) will be extended anywhere near the west.

You have to look at how the west will develop - and its fate was sealed long before SRL was even a thing - it was back when the urban growth boundary was put in place well over a decade ago.

The base map is one that shows you the status of any PSP - Precinct Structure Plan (a set of documents that govern how new suburbs are made in greenfields site) - in the West with me adding the red lines to the map for context.



In a nutshell, we need to focus on the Melton and Wyndham Vale corridors.  The Sunbury line will only really take on any major new patronge from Sunbury itself, NOT south of Watergardens because the area will only take on higher-densities, rather lower-densities of new fringe greenfields dev.

The west is going to develop very differently to how the east has over the past century and a half.  It is a false dichotomy to wish some form of warped equalisation of the east with the west - it's apples and oranges.  Each of the new PSPs, broadly speaking, have mixed-use and mixed-density town centres built around existing or new train stations on either the RRL corridor or the Melton line.  The east was developed as towns along country rail lines and is fundamentally complete (except for the outer S.E. - which is a focus on new services to Cranbourne/Pakenham).

The tunnel that has been talked about and was in the leaked version of the NDP will eventually be needed to take either both quadruplicated & electrified Melton + electrified Wyndham Vale (maybe also quadruplicated to maintain regional / metro split) into the city and thanks to the exclusivity of a train pair for those two suburban services, frequencies can scale up and down as needed, thus forming the southwestern corner of the loop but also acting as a rapid access pathway to the city (this is a clear and present advantage for the west over east going forward).

We already have commitments to have 2 of the 4 sections complete by 2030 (Southland-Box Hill and the Airport line), I'm willing to bet the Melton/Wyndham Vale electrification (either both together or phased) will be the 3rd to go under construction with the 4th phase the second part of the new rail tech extended from Box Hill to the airport.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I personally couldn't give a Rat's tossbag what they do as I won't be using it but having to change trains due to gauge at the airport (if this is indeed the case) a) doesn't make it a true loop (not that it was in the first place I suppose) and b) will lead to some potential pax choosing not to use it

This in my mind makes it more likely that something else will be done down the track to link up the SRL and the West

Did any of these grand master plans include anything at all about an SRL 10 years ago? 5 years? 3 years?

Things can change very rapidly when governments just decide to do things and bypass the bureaucrats and after what has happened with the SRL I don't think you can rule anything in or out especially with a growing population in the West. Population = votes
  Upven Junior Train Controller

I personally couldn't give a Rat's tossbag what they do as I won't be using it but having to change trains due to gauge at the airport (if this is indeed the case) a) doesn't make it a true loop (not that it was in the first place I suppose) and b) will lead to some potential pax choosing not to use it

This in my mind makes it more likely that something else will be done down the track to link up the SRL and the West

Did any of these grand master plans include anything at all about an SRL 10 years ago? 5 years? 3 years?

Things can change very rapidly when governments just decide to do things and bypass the bureaucrats and after what has happened with the SRL I don't think you can rule anything in or out especially with a growing population in the West. Population = votes
BrentonGolding
Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
Upven
Don't disagree with that and those of us who use the Bendigo Group seems to have been lumped in with the West despite (or maybe because) the fact that the minister for transport infrastructure is a local member!
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
Upven
Sweet nothings. Yeah sure.

Electric Sunbury, Watergardens, Keilor Plains, Williams Landing, Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, Carolyn Springs, Cobblebank, Melton duplicate. 20minute OP service interval.

Short Memories, Short Memories
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Futher ‘Part of modern rail’: Suburban Rail Loop not continuous line, minister confirms / News / News / Railpage

I think that the comment about a continuous line is not realistic unless you would like to take the line further south east by connecting with the frankston line and also thence further down the penninsula.  I would find the other $10b and connect the line on the mornington side with the Geelong side creating an interchangable and multiple connection around the major population centres.
  Djebel Locomotive Driver

So a 90km continuous loop is "not realistic", but 110km from Pakenham to Sunbury without changing trains is perfectly straightforward and feasible and will be operational in a few years Rolling Eyes.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
Sweet nothings. Yeah sure.

Electric Sunbury, Watergardens, Keilor Plains, Williams Landing, Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, Carolyn Springs, Cobblebank, Melton duplicate. 20minute OP service interval.

Short Memories, Short Memories
justarider
I don't reckon the good burghers of Melbourne's leafy East would put up with diesel hauled trains run by V/Line some with carriages refurbed 40 years ago to get to work on like many in the west do (for clarity I don't live in the West but used to live in the East years ago)

And while Sunbury electrification was a big plus for those living beyond St Albans it also has it's own issues with frequency some of which is caused by competition for paths with Bendigo group trains (and some of which are caused by patronage no doubt) and also long spacing between stations

I presume that the apparent disparity between East and West was what lead to the Western Rail Plan which encompassed parts of the PTV NDP like electrification to Melton and Wyndham Vale but these are now missing from the WRP main page on the Big Build website which refers only to Geetroit Fast Rail and the Melbourne Airport Rail link, you have to dig a bit deeper to find any reference to the electrification works and it's just old press releases from before the 2018 election from what I can see
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
Sweet nothings. Yeah sure.

Electric Sunbury, Watergardens, Keilor Plains, Williams Landing, Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, Carolyn Springs, Cobblebank, Melton duplicate. 20minute OP service interval.

Short Memories, Short Memories
justarider
Yeah but nah as Vicky Pollard would say.

Yes the West has had improvements but if you think that the west is as well connect as the east as regards to Public transport then you and I are living in different cities.

Remember Ardeer, Deer Park, Cobblebank, Caroline Springs and Melton, Melbourne Suburbs are still served by Diesel V/Line Services of which as @BrentonGolding has pointed out, in rush hours are served by carriages which are up to 60 years old hauled by 40 year old locos. Totally unsuited to all stations work due to poor acceleration. No one in the east would put up with that.


Michael
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Until the west becomes an unsafe seat for Labor, I think they'll continue to be shafted with sweet nothings, sadly.
Sweet nothings. Yeah sure.

Electric Sunbury, Watergardens, Keilor Plains, Williams Landing, Tarneit, Wyndham Vale, Carolyn Springs, Cobblebank, Melton duplicate. 20minute OP service interval.

Short Memories, Short Memories
Yeah but nah as Vicky Pollard would say.

Yes the West has had improvements but if you think that the west is as well connect as the east as regards to Public transport then you and I are living in different cities.

Remember Ardeer, Deer Park, Cobblebank, Caroline Springs and Melton, Melbourne Suburbs are still served by Diesel V/Line Services of which as @BrentonGolding has pointed out, in rush hours are served by carriages which are up to 60 years old hauled by 40 year old locos. Totally unsuited to all stations work due to poor acceleration. No one in the east would put up with that.


Michael
mejhammers1
Yeah, Nah. Modern comfortable Vlo , some overflow to old engine hauled.

Melton to SCS                                      37km in 41min.
Upper Ferntree Gully to Parliament. 37km in 49min.
Hurstbridge to Flinders St                  38km in 58min.
What is the west vs east you are whinging about?

Jusy wait in Melton, for the joys of the east: a rocking Xtrap or 40yo Comeng.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
Yeah, Nah. Modern comfortable Vlo , some overflow to old engine hauled.

Melton to SCS 37km in 41min.
Upper Ferntree Gully to Parliament. 37km in 49min.
Hurstbridge to Flinders St 38km in 58min.
What is the west vs east you are whinging about?

Jusy wait in Melton, for the joys of the east: a rocking Xtrap or 40yo Comeng.
justarider

When was the last time a 40 year old Comeng went past Burnley or Jolimont in service?

Yes, the service levels to the Melton line have improved over the past few years, but lets not pretend that it is all equal, because that is just not the case.

Try getting a train to or from Melton after 7pm, or on a weekend for that matter. An hourly service to and from Victoria's third biggest city has to double as a suburban train. Yes the seats are comfy and if you are lucky you might just get one on your hourly 40 minute trip to Southern Cross.

In comparison, after 7pm or on a weekend, how often do trains leave Parliament for Ringwood or Eltham?
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Yeah, Nah. Modern comfortable Vlo , some overflow to old engine hauled.

Melton to SCS 37km in 41min.
Upper Ferntree Gully to Parliament. 37km in 49min.
Hurstbridge to Flinders St 38km in 58min.
What is the west vs east you are whinging about?

Jusy wait in Melton, for the joys of the east: a rocking Xtrap or 40yo Comeng.

When was the last time a 40 year old Comeng went past Burnley or Jolimont in service?

Yes, the service levels to the Melton line have improved over the past few years, but lets not pretend that it is all equal, because that is just not the case.

Try getting a train to or from Melton after 7pm, or on a weekend for that matter. An hourly service to and from Victoria's third biggest city has to double as a suburban train. Yes the seats are comfy and if you are lucky you might just get one on your hourly 40 minute trip to Southern Cross.

In comparison, after 7pm or on a weekend, how often do trains leave Parliament for Ringwood or Eltham?
Gman_86
Comeng. Since you consider anything not West to be East,
do I need to document trains fron Frankston, Dandenong, Craigeburn : each with comparable distances to Melton and far worse travel times ?

After 7pm, Melton is 40 minutes gap. BOO HOO

Belgrave and Lilydale are 30 minutes.  Ringwood is a false equivelent, more like Deer Park varies 10 to 30min..
Hurstbridge is 60 min, Eltham is 30min
Don't pretent anywhere after hours is frequent.

3rd biggest city. In your dreams, ever heard of Dandenong, Frankston, Knox, Whitehorse, Monash, Yarra Ranges ?

And I'm glad you can manage a comfy seat sometimes. Unlike the 50% of easterers that have to stand. Read the HCMT specs, even more will need to stand.

Things are not equal. However the statements that the west gets nothing, and easterers get it all, is rubbish.

cheers
John
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Ballarat?
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I would argue the divide is the exact reverse:

West:
Metro Tunnel
Regional Rail Link
Duplication to Melton
Level crossing removals
Sunbury electrification and subsequently the Sunbury line upgrade
Airport rail link
Williams Landing station
Caroline Springs station
Cobblebank station
Brimbank/Wyndham bus revamp

East:
Duplication to Epping and extension to South Morang/Mernda
Whittlesea bus changes
Hurstbridge line duplication
Pakenham/Cranbourne line upgrade incl. duplication
Metro Tunnel
Level crossing removals
Lynbrook station
Pakenham East station

On the surface there might not be much difference but when you account for the cost of each project, the difference is huge.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

I would argue the divide is the exact reverse:
railblogger
They're paying a pretty penny to play catch up I agree. Doesn't mean the east don't have it better.

Better tram network
More train services
More bus services and better coverage

The east benefits from the fact that legacy Melbourne in the late 1800s/early 1900s was growing in that direction.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
I would argue the divide is the exact reverse:
They're paying a pretty penny to play catch up I agree. Doesn't mean the east don't have it better.

Better tram network
More train services
More bus services and better coverage

The east benefits from the fact that legacy Melbourne in the late 1800s/early 1900s was growing in that direction.
John.Z
Are we still on this east vs west thing?

Here's a thought, the population centre of Melbourne is near abouts Waverley.

So the western suburbs start around Chadston, and a big chunk of expensive LX work is towards the west of there.
Oh, and nearly the entire tram network is in the "west"

Ps @railblogger, next time you do an us vs them list, how about a * for those not done yet.  And some dollars to back up the "huge difference"
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

Are we still on this east vs west thing?

Here's a thought, the population centre of Melbourne is near abouts Waverley.

So the western suburbs start around Chadston, and a big chunk of expensive LX work is towards the west of there.
Oh, and nearly the entire tram network is in the "west"

Ps @railblogger, next time you do an us vs them list, how about a * for those not done yet.  And some dollars to back up the "huge difference"
justarider
In the 70s maybe, not anymore. And it's a very disingenuous argument. No one living in Toorak considers themselves to live in the west, let's not deliberately confuse the argument just to frame it to suit ourselves. The west is west of the CBD. Not west of VFL park. That's just taking the piss.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
In the 70s maybe, not anymore. And it's a very disingenuous argument. No one living in Toorak considers themselves to live in the west, let's not deliberately confuse the argument just to frame it to suit ourselves. The west is west of the CBD. Not west of VFL park. That's just taking the piss.
John.Z
Of course I was taking the piss.

Simple reason there are more services east of the CBD. There are twice/thrice as many people to look after.

Ps no-one living in Toorak would be caught dead on a bus/tram/train.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I love the East vs West arguments..
Like an imaginary line makes someone in Doncaster or Toorak have the same priorities as someone in Frankston, Beaconsfield or Warrandyte.

Maybe the argument should be Inner Suburbs vs Outer..   The inner Westies won't like that one.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Free at last, free at last
Not enough west vs east ? Back to the SRL topic. It practically draws the E/W dividing line population wise
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I would argue the divide is the exact reverse:
They're paying a pretty penny to play catch up I agree. Doesn't mean the east don't have it better.

Better tram network
More train services
More bus services and better coverage

The east benefits from the fact that legacy Melbourne in the late 1800s/early 1900s was growing in that direction.
Are we still on this east vs west thing?

Here's a thought, the population centre of Melbourne is near abouts Waverley.

So the western suburbs start around Chadston, and a big chunk of expensive LX work is towards the west of there.
Oh, and nearly the entire tram network is in the "west"

Ps @railblogger, next time you do an us vs them list, how about a * for those not done yet.  And some dollars to back up the "huge difference"
justarider
I was under the assumption we'd all know the cost for each project.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I personally couldn't give a Rat's tossbag what they do as I won't be using it but having to change trains due to gauge at the airport (if this is indeed the case) a) doesn't make it a true loop (not that it was in the first place I suppose) and b) will lead to some potential pax choosing not to use it

This in my mind makes it more likely that something else will be done down the track to link up the SRL and the West

Did any of these grand master plans include anything at all about an SRL 10 years ago? 5 years? 3 years?

Things can change very rapidly when governments just decide to do things and bypass the bureaucrats and after what has happened with the SRL I don't think you can rule anything in or out especially with a growing population in the West. Population = votes
BrentonGolding
I don't think it's a different track gauge (is it?) but certainly there was talk of it being 25,000 kV AC as we have here in South Australia. You don't need nearly as many sub-stations as you do with 1,500 V DC but yes, it ill be incompatible with the existing suburban network (without dual voltage trains).
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

I don't think it's a different track gauge (is it?) but certainly there was talk of it being 25,000 kV AC as we have here in South Australia. You don't need nearly as many sub-stations as you do with 1,500 V DC but yes, it ill be incompatible with the existing suburban network (without dual voltage trains).
don_dunstan
SRL won't share any tracks with mainline trains, so I'm guessing that it will be SG and 25kV AC, maybe even 3rd rail. Gonna be interesting to see.

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