Suburban Rail Loop (Election promise)

 
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
I don't think it's a different track gauge (is it?) but certainly there was talk of it being 25,000 kV AC as we have here in South Australia. You don't need nearly as many sub-stations as you do with 1,500 V DC but yes, it ill be incompatible with the existing suburban network (without dual voltage trains).
SRL won't share any tracks with mainline trains, so I'm guessing that it will be SG and 25kV AC, maybe even 3rd rail. Gonna be interesting to see.
John.Z
"guessing" ???

We went thru all this last December.
Page 14 section 3.1.5 definitely 25kV AC
https://suburbanrailloop.vic.gov.au/-/media/Project/VicRoads/SuburbanRailLoop/Planning-page/Suburban-Rail-Loop-Stage-One-Project-Outline.pdf

Even without knowing who will build the rolling stock, its certain that they will be built at Ballarat, Newport or Dandenong. All BG.
Can't rail anything on SG

So why on earth complicate the project by having to deliver every completed set, and return every set for major maintainence, on the back of a truck?
Delivery of HCMT and Xtrap show how it's done, without power (so voltage doesn't matter)

PS a fully equipped train carriage is too big for road travel anyways, without a very specialised route.

cheers
John

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yep. Incompatible electrical system and possibly a different gauge.
Carnot
Interesting but no drama.

Airport to a major junction station that offers routes all over greater Melbourne is fine.
  John E Locomotive Driver

If SRL is a stand alone loop, how do you propose transporting carriages from Dandenong, ballarat etc and into the tunnel. E.g. diesel to Westall and then special transport to Heatherton stabling yards.

Generally curious how they would do this. Maybe there will be some small connection to the main network on the Dandenone line?
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
a standalone "line" can still have chords to the existing network (assuming track gauge matches).  Case in point, Sydney Metro Phase 1 / Old Chatswood-Epping link - the tunnel dives (from the north) are still connected to the metro track (underneath running roughly E-W), it's not in operational use, but it's still a pathway between the two isolated networks.

edit: and this can theoretically be built into the new airport station going ahead as part of MARL - in future a point could be built to connect both the SRL and MARL tracks (I fully suspect the MELair station to have four platforms built as part of the MARL project - just 2 will be in use from day ops in 2029 etc with space for easily inserting P2 of the standalone SRL 'line')... again not for everyday operational use, but as a pathway to connect two isolated lines if there's ever a need.

edit x2: anyhow, heavy maintenance will probably be done at the new maintenance facility in Kingston.... I'd have thought.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
If SRL is a stand alone loop, how do you propose transporting carriages from Dandenong, ballarat etc and into the tunnel. E.g. diesel to Westall and then special transport to Heatherton stabling yards.

Generally curious how they would do this. Maybe there will be some small connection to the main network on the Dandenone line?
Agreed, always thought that Westall is the ideal connect between the 2 networks. About 500m of tunnel would do it.
That's Eastern anyways. Out West, SRL will eventually surface next to the "real" trains.

I doubt major engineering, aka a very big factory, will happen at Heatherton.
Local angst is growing, so stabling and cleaning/minor fix is likely to be the max space/aggravation that will become the compromise.
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

If SRL is a stand alone loop, how do you propose transporting carriages from Dandenong, ballarat etc and into the tunnel. E.g. diesel to Westall and then special transport to Heatherton stabling yards.

Generally curious how they would do this. Maybe there will be some small connection to the main network on the Dandenone line?
Agreed, always thought that Westall is the ideal connect between the 2 networks. About 500m of tunnel would do it.
That's Eastern anyways. Out West, SRL will eventually surface next to the "real" trains.

I doubt major engineering, aka a very big factory, will happen at Heatherton.
Local angst is growing, so stabling and cleaning/minor fix is likely to be the max space/aggravation that will become the compromise.
justarider
The government will just need to add a station and hand out money for parks to keep the locals quiet. Westall isn't big enough to cater for SRL. Expect a Pakenham East sized depot in Hetherton shrouded in parkland.

Hertherton will be above ground, fitted out cars could be delivered on trucks from Newport and joined before beginning testing.
Dandenong will be tied up with Next Generation regional fleet, whatever that is. Ballarat will also be busy with Xcrap 2.0 and someone still needs to build the 100 new next generation trams that were announced. Next 10 years are going to be busy for local manufactures, even more so if federal labor is elected. Buying cars from CRRC will be a no no.

Lockie
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
If SRL is a stand alone loop, how do you propose transporting carriages from Dandenong, ballarat etc and into the tunnel. E.g. diesel to Westall and then special transport to Heatherton stabling yards.

Generally curious how they would do this. Maybe there will be some small connection to the main network on the Dandenone line?
Agreed, always thought that Westall is the ideal connect between the 2 networks. About 500m of tunnel would do it.
That's Eastern anyways. Out West, SRL will eventually surface next to the "real" trains.

I doubt major engineering, aka a very big factory, will happen at Heatherton.
Local angst is growing, so stabling and cleaning/minor fix is likely to be the max space/aggravation that will become the compromise.
The government will just need to add a station and hand out money for parks to keep the locals quiet. Westall isn't big enough to cater for SRL. Expect a Pakenham East sized depot in Hetherton shrouded in parkland.

Hertherton will be above ground, fitted out cars could be delivered on trucks from Newport and joined before beginning testing.
Dandenong will be tied up with Next Generation regional fleet, whatever that is. Ballarat will also be busy with Xcrap 2.0 and someone still needs to build the 100 new next generation trams that were announced. Next 10 years are going to be busy for local manufactures, even more so if federal labor is elected. Buying cars from CRRC will be a no no.

Lockie
Lockie91
Minor problem with your analogy.

The Heatherton site is only about half the size of Pakenham East.

Westall may be OK to maintain short (4 car) SRL trains, but it's real benefit is easy access to the rest of the network.

Perhaps Melb surburbs might put up with an initial road disrupt for deliver of 100+ rail carraiges
- move power lines, trees, signals - you name it, very high load on a truck will hit it,
- traffic shut downs
but regular to/fro for the next 100 years, is not on.

cheers
John
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Sydney metro's facility just beyond Tallawong station - 6 car trains - measures approximately 30 hectares via gmaps.  

The Heatherton site:

- approx 34 hectares from the houses (western end) to Old Dandenong Road ("Henry Street" the northern boundary)
- approx 47 hectares if you utilise the above plus the strip of land between Old Dandenong Road and the Dingley bypass as well.

Sydney Metro P1: 36km, 22 x 6 car trains, 4 minute peak frequencies.  All maintenance done on the one site.
SRL P1: ~24-25km, roughly same amount of 4 car trains, probably same type of service pattern - much more room to play with re: land/putting facilities in the one place.  What the locals think of it is another story but it passes the pub test that everything will be self-contained if we compare to SM P1.


And anyhow, from Engage.Vic: https://suburbanrailloop.vic.gov.au/-/media/Project/VicRoads/SuburbanRailLoop/Planning-page/Suburban-Rail-Loop-Stage-One-Project-Outline.pdf

"The Southern Stabling Yard would include stabling and maintenance for all trains on SRL Stage One, an operational control centre and associated facilities such as train wash and substation."

There's only going to be a need to get the vehicles in there in the first place, no ongoing movements elsewhere.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??
There's only going to be a need to get the vehicles in there in the first place, no ongoing movements elsewhere.
tayser
A brave statement, Minister.

So ...  Xtrap don't make regular visits to Ballarat. HCMT, not even fully operational yet, have been seen returning to Newport.

In both cases, there are maintenance facilities at their respective stabling, yet not all required work is possible there.

cheers
John
  Upven Junior Train Controller

There's only going to be a need to get the vehicles in there in the first place, no ongoing movements elsewhere.
A brave statement, Minister.

So ...  Xtrap don't make regular visits to Ballarat. HCMT, not even fully operational yet, have been seen returning to Newport.

In both cases, there are maintenance facilities at their respective stabling, yet not all required work is possible there.

cheers
John
justarider
The trains will most likely be imported for SRL and maybe fitted out here at best. As they're not going to be broad gauge. Government can reduce costs by making them SG and there's no valid reason for them to be BG, none. The SRL is being sold by the VLP as a new wholly separated network.
  Jordy33 Locomotive Fireman

For them (SRL trains) to be imported would be quite politically risky, if VLP and ALP manage to get power. Albanese likes the idea of building trains in Australia, to import trains would be contradicting a potential federal labor government. It doesn’t seem as the liberals are as fussy about building trains in Australia (looking at NSW).

Either ways, what we need is an effective import option (from a friendly country), an assembled in Australia option, and a fully built in Australia option. It’s effectively spend less but into other countries, or spend more but the money is largely spent within Australia.
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The SRL trains will be built here from imported car bodies using local parts like every other train and tram since the X'Traps.

But yes, I see no reason why it wouldn't be SG.
  Yappo Locomotive Fireman

First batch of tenders for preliminary works look to be going out soon

https://suburbanrailloop.vic.gov.au/News/Suburban-Rail-Loop-Early-Works-a-Step-Closer

"The huge package of works will see roads modified, utilities relocated and protected, ground improvement trials, tram terminus works and sites prepared across Melbourne’s south east to make way for massive tunnel boring machines (TBMs) that will tunnel the 26 kilometre rail corridor from Cheltenham to Box Hill."
  Yappo Locomotive Fireman

If SRL is a stand alone loop, how do you propose transporting carriages from Dandenong, ballarat etc and into the tunnel. E.g. diesel to Westall and then special transport to Heatherton stabling yards.

Generally curious how they would do this. Maybe there will be some small connection to the main network on the Dandenone line?
John E
Why build a connection between a SG line and a BG network? Just do what is done in most places in the world, deliver the rolling stock by road to the depot. Much quicker delivery process as at least the shipping to Oz by ship isn't required....
  Carnot Minister for Railways

First batch of tenders for preliminary works look to be going out soon

https://suburbanrailloop.vic.gov.au/News/Suburban-Rail-Loop-Early-Works-a-Step-Closer

"The huge package of works will see roads modified, utilities relocated and protected, ground improvement trials, tram terminus works and sites prepared across Melbourne’s south east to make way for massive tunnel boring machines (TBMs) that will tunnel the 26 kilometre rail corridor from Cheltenham to Box Hill."
Yappo
2 of the 3 companies are Chinese owned...
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Pleasing to see some real modelling around how to take cars off the road when the introduction of the SRL. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/suburban-rail-loop-to-slash-car-journeys-in-melbourne-s-growing-suburbs-secret-modelling-shows
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

SRL has released a stack of information on there website, including station footprints, entrances, substation location and a glimpse at possible operations. Daniel Bowen on his blog is predicting a 5-6 minute frequency based on the distance and the 13 trains needed for stage one.

Some comments on the station locations and designs. The biggest is that all the stations will be built using the bottom up method, think Arden & ANZAC, not mined caverns like the city MM stations. Im personally in favour of this, despite the massive disruption that will be caused be digging giant holes in the middle of the suburbs. If done correctly this will allow better surface level connections to the station and allow for development around the new stations once complete. This all goes back to the government '20 minute neighbourhoods' from plan Melbourne, expect each one of the new stations to become activity hubs.

Box Hill - Station is set to be across two levels, I imagine the first level will allow connections into Box Hill Station with SRL platforms bellow. There is no station entrance in Box Hill Gardens, which I think is a missed opportunity with the development along Station Road. This essentially forces people to walk the length of the station to access it. Quite a few buildings lie in the station footprint, including some smaller mid rise towers. An Armchair measure has the station box at 300m long.

Burwood - Station location is set to sit on the corner of McComas Grove and Burwood Highway. With a single entrance 'orientated towards' the Uni and Route 75 tram. What is not obvious in the propaganda is a direct connection to the uni's grounds. Mentioned is 'adjacent' tram and bus interchange to the new station. At a minimum an underpass is going to be needed to connect the uni to the station without forcing thousands of people to cross Burwood Highway everyday. This is would be roughly 100m long from the station box to the middle of the carpark on Holland Av. The station footprint itself is only 200m long. I can see this being a major worksite for SRL as there is plenty of space and no large buildings to acquire. It would be nice to see the route 70 tram extended down Elgar Road to connect to the new station, bring thousands of more people with a short tram ride of the station.

Glen Waverley - The station box is set to consume Glendale Street and the Carpark. The proposed station entrance is on the corner of Glendale Street and Colman Parade. No mention of a 'direct' connection to Glen Waverley, with the station entrance requiring people to walk 170m around to the entrance of Glen Waverley station, despite the platform being 20 meters 'as the crow fly's' from the SRL station box. Some reconfiguration works are going to need to be undertaken at Glen Waverley to provide a direct unground connection, possibly with the platform being expanded to allow a lift and escalators to be built to provide a connection to SRL. The station footprint is 160m long.

Monash - The station will sit below Howleys Road near Normanby Road, several warehouses will need to be acquired. Interestingly the station is smack in the middle of the industrial area, I smell some major development happening hear once the station is complete and the land becomes more valuable. Two station entrances, once servicing the uni. Another mention of a new bus interchange, wonder if this will be in addition to the current Monash Uni interchange or if this will be relocated to sit next to the new SRL Station. There are no points of reference on the map to measure the station box.

Clayton - Station is to be built on the west of Clayton Road, at around 200m long it will consume some retail and residential properties. Two station entrances near Carinish Road, ether side of Clayton Road. Mentions Direct connection to Clayton Station, this is going to require extending a walkway between the two tracks over Clayton Road and then down to the SRL stations. Otherwise we are left with people crossing Clayton Road to access the station. What disappointing is that there is no entrance at the northern end of the station box, which is about 200m from the main entrance to the hospital.

Southland - Station is set to permanently consume William Fry Reserve, with the station box parallel to Bay Road. No direct connection to Westfield or Southland Station. There is mention again of a new bus interchange 'off bay road', a miss not to have a direct connection to the shopping centre. Im sure Westfield wouldn't mind giving up a a few shop front to funnel hundreds of people directly into its centre.


Lets wait and see if these connectivity issues are refined with more detailed station designs.

Lockie
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
The Age does a bit of a cynical story on the Suburban Rail Loop.

It's always easy to be critical when the journo's who write these articles and the 'experts' they get their info from are obviously NOT actual PT users. An interesting article nevertheless.

Mike.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/thrown-in-a-loop-how-daniel-andrews-biggest-project-was-cooked-up-behind-closed-doors-20210804-p58fsf.html
  Lockie91 Assistant Commissioner

The Age does a bit of a cynical story on the Suburban Rail Loop.

It's always easy to be critical when the journo's who write these articles and the 'experts' they get their info from are obviously NOT actual PT users. An interesting article nevertheless.

Mike.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/thrown-in-a-loop-how-daniel-andrews-biggest-project-was-cooked-up-behind-closed-doors-20210804-p58fsf.html
The Vinelander
The Age has gone all News Corp and written an unbalanced piece of sh$t.

The article raises some good points and highlights the realities of most major transport projects, Money and politics get in the way of good planing. This is how it will always be, unless we are up for changing our system of government.

The tacking on of job losses and changes, 'labor loyalists' getting top jobs and private consultants is nothing new. It is what always happens when a party wins office. Those that helped the party win get rewarded. This muddying of the waters detracts from what the article should be about, SRL and its planning.

As for the SRL, I don't personally have an issue with the way it was conceived. People are kidding them selves if they think the best ideas are born in some government office, by mindless transport planners that have been doing the same thing for the last 30 years. Plan Melbourne 2050 was out at the same time the 2008 PTV Network Development Plan was released, it is mind boggling that the two departments didn't at least talk to each other. PTV and transport planners we solely focused on how to get more people into or through the CBD, while Plan Melbourne developed 20 minute neighbourhoods.

Also no issue with it being 'secretly' planned, if it had leaked property prices would have skyrocketed and developers would have had a field day. Just as the case was when Matthew Guy rezoned Fisherman's Bend without a plan, now the government is paying triple the land value to buy land for parks and schools.

The biggest thing we should be focused on now is how to get the most out of SRL. Development Victoria should be working on percent plans for each of the stations to develop them into Hubs to achieve the 20 minute neighbourhood that Plan Melbourne talks about. Development Levies should be introduced to recover some of the costs, as has been done with Sydney Metro.

What I do agree with from the article, is this should be seen as a urban development/renewal project, not a transport one. The goal is not to move thousands of people of A to B every hour, it is to open up employment, services and education to hundreds of thousands of people in the eastern suburbs and beyond.

Lockie
  John.Z Assistant Commissioner

The biggest issue with the SRL was the lack of care given to anything west of the Airport. Now that MARL is going via Sunshine, hopefully it gives the public service 20 years to plan what to do with the SRL from there.

Ideally the SRL would be broken up into 3 operating sectors

Cheltenham (or Sandringham) to Doncaster
Doncaster to Airport
Airport to Werribee/Williams Landing/Point Cook (pick your end point, this section needs planning)
  tayser Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
VPA have already done a tonne of work re: making sure it's a transformational, not just transport, project.  And after a casual/random glance at the gov's careers website, you'd have noticed they're hiring placemakers/urban designers not just engineers/rail positions etc.
  Tony M. Locomotive Driver

The Age does a bit of a cynical story on the Suburban Rail Loop.

It's always easy to be critical when the journo's who write these articles and the 'experts' they get their info from are obviously NOT actual PT users. An interesting article nevertheless.

Mike.

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/thrown-in-a-loop-how-daniel-andrews-biggest-project-was-cooked-up-behind-closed-doors-20210804-p58fsf.html
The Vinelander

The comedy highlight of that article was this:


In bypassing the state’s transport department or Infrastructure Victoria — an independent advisory set up by Premier Andrews to depoliticise infrastructure building — the government cut out of the loop those who could help answer these questions, and abandoned the usual bureaucratic checks and balances.

It’s the sort of criticism levelled recently at the Morrison government’s controversial commuter car parking program.
The Age
  ngarner Deputy Commissioner

Location: Seville
The Age has gone all News Corp and written an unbalanced piece of sh$t.


Lockie
Lockie91
Peter Costello now owns Fairfax and, as Lockie says, has no qualms about the honesty or integrity of what is published by the Fairfax brand papers. The Fairfax journalists integrity document that used to exist before he bought it out has been trashed by Costello and his board. He either agrees with Murdoch or wants to compete with Newscorpse for the readership of the right wing .

Neil
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Reads like the government needed a project to make them look good on public transport.  

http://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/how-daniel-andrews-biggest-project-was-cooked-up-behind-closed-doors
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Interesting article arrived today https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/fears-of-mazelike-suburban-loop-stations-lacking-links-to-trains-and-unis about access to the stations on the proposed SRL and how they interconnect with other infrastructure.

A lot of time can be wasted trvelling up from below (assuming the stations will remain underground) and thought should be given to connections between the station at station level and other locations in the area without the need to travel to the surface and wait for lights and other long distance walking routes.

Would be good to see walk ways underground to shopping centres, other stations (metro) and universities.

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