Passenger plane goes down in ocean off Indonesia

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 29 Oct 2018 15:28
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia


Passenger plane goes down in ocean off Indonesia

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  Carnot Chief Commissioner

You couldn't pay me to fly Lion Air. I'm not overly hopeful they'll get much better although Taiwanese carrier China Airlines lifted its game considerably after a spat of crashes in the 1990s. Back then the company I worked for wouldn't book tickets on it. But they would in the mid 2000s.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

An increasing problem now in the airline industry, is that the aircraft are so automated that a lot of senior management even in good airlines believe the aircrew do not need to be so highly trained. The problem here is when something goes wrong, there's often very little time for the crew to react before they get into serious trouble. An excellent example of this is Air France flight 447, but its by no means the only one. Its an increasing cause of airline aircraft accidents.

woodford
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
An increasing problem now in the airline industry, is that the aircraft are so automated that a lot of senior management even in good airlines believe the aircrew do not need to be so highly trained. The problem here is when something goes wrong, there's often very little time for the crew to react before they get into serious trouble. An excellent example of this is Air France flight 447, but its by no means the only one. Its an increasing cause of airline aircraft accidents.

woodford
woodford
With each crash showing lack of pilot training I think the tide is turning somewhat.

Following the embarrassing EK crash on the runway, in broad daylight, cloudless sky, on home soil doing what should be considered routine, ie a standard go-around, guess what every EK pilot trained in the simulator for over the following months, over and over again!

However the issue was also a major wake up for Boeing because they had been told of the issue previously and likewise the emergency slide provider as they nearly killed people with the slides in this accident.

Issue is, like above, the training for specific events is as only good as the imagination of what a pilot maybe faced with and available training time for such events.

However what alot pilots lack from many countries is General Aviation experience due to a local ban on General Aviation for political reasons.  This experience is something that many pilots have fallen back on when they have been in a major crisis and either relied on this to land their plane safely or at least minimize the losses.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner


Issue is, like above, the training for specific events is as only good as the imagination of what a pilot maybe faced with and available training time for such events.

However what alot pilots lack from many countries is General Aviation experience due to a local ban on General Aviation for political reasons.  This experience is something that many pilots have fallen back on when they have been in a major crisis and either relied on this to land their plane safely or at least minimize the losses.
RTT_Rules
I mentioned earlier about China Airlines in Taiwan and their horrendous safety record in the 1990s.  One of the big factors in this was that most of their pilots were ex-military and weren't adequately trained for flying Civilian aircraft.  Things changed when they recruited more widely and also via a dedicated pilot academy.  Aircraft maintenance was also sharpened up (especially after a poorly repaired 747-200 disintegrated over the Taiwan Strait in 2002).
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
More information arrived online for the flight details

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/flightradar24-data-regarding-lion-air-flight-jt610
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
A couple of years ago, I sat beside an Air Crash Investigator on a Qantas Melbourne to Sydney flight. He made no bones about it when he said, "The major factor is the pilots and today, you and I are sitting behind the best. QF32, (the A380 that blew its number 2 engine to bits on the climb out from Singapore) owes its survival wholly and solely to the pilots. With a number of other airlines I can think of, that aircraft would have ended up in the sea."
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Is there a somewhat similar situation with training in some areas of the rail industry here in Australia?
  M636C Minister for Railways

I am reminded of the spate of crashes of A320s when they were first introduced.

The digital flight control system was less than intuitive, and at least two crashes were caused by pilots inputting numbers to the system without checking that the system was in the correct mode.

No doubt there some improvements in the 737 MAX series that were not fully understood by the crew who were used to the straight 737-800 that Lionair also fly.

The statement that the same aircraft suffered unexplained power loss during climb on a previous flight is, I think, the key to the problem. I would suggest that because that crew got away with whatever the situation was, an assumption was made that the problem could be overcome, possibly without understanding what had happened.

This could be a problem that could not be reproduced on the ground: a source of many technician vs pilot jokes but in reality a serious situation.

Peter
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The plane was on a climb out from departure not landing if I read it right so how much of the control and systems would have been in play ?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The plane was on a climb out from departure not landing if I read it right so how much of the control and systems would have been in play ?
freightgate
I thought at this stage of the flight it was on auto pilot or at least auto throttle.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The plane was on a climb out from departure not landing if I read it right so how much of the control and systems would have been in play ?
I thought at this stage of the flight it was on auto pilot or at least auto throttle.
RTT_Rules
On an Airbus aircraft the pilots notes say the Autopilot is to be enabled as soon as the aircraft is in a stable climb after take off. So the ONLY time the pilot is really flying the aircraft is for a couple of minutes on the takeoff roll.

The problem with this is the newer pilots are not getting enough "stick" time to know what the stick feels like in unusual situations. A lot of older pilots are extremely critical of this and say it IS causing accidents.

woodford
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
The only 'good thing' that has come out regarding this event is that the aircraft was still on RADAR and the crash site quickly located unlike MH370 that 'disappeared' some 4 years ago.
Sadly there were no survivors even though the crash area was reached quickly.

I wonder in that time since MH370 and seeing this was a brand new aircraft, was it fitted with a constant transmitting transponder enabling its location to be observed at all times during the flight?

At the moment there has been no indication as to why the Aircraft Crashed but one of the 'Black Box' recorders has been located which we hope can tell what happened and perhaps help to prevent something similar happening again.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The plane was on a climb out from departure not landing if I read it right so how much of the control and systems would have been in play ?
I thought at this stage of the flight it was on auto pilot or at least auto throttle.
RTT_Rules
Unexplained power loss might be traced to the autopilot cutting out and the pilots not realising what has happened....

Peter
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The only 'good thing' that has come out regarding this event is that the aircraft was still on RADAR and the crash site quickly located unlike MH370 that 'disappeared' some 4 years ago.
Sadly there were no survivors even though the crash area was reached quickly.

I wonder in that time since MH370 and seeing this was a brand new aircraft, was it fitted with a constant transmitting transponder enabling its location to be observed at all times during the flight?

At the moment there has been no indication as to why the Aircraft Crashed but one of the 'Black Box' recorders has been located which we hope can tell what happened and perhaps help to prevent something similar happening again.
gordon_s1942
The aircraft was being tracked by radar, this means the aircrafts normal transponder was working, this also reports height and speed. The flight was also being tracked by ADS-B. which means this was also fitted to the aircraft, this is completely independent of the Transponder and gives the aircrafts, height speed, heading and vertical speed every minute. As the flights pitch and velocity is availible in much detail it appears it is VERY likely the aircraft was transmitting engineering data to a maintenance centre somewhere. The latter two fitting being recommendations from flight Mh370.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Studying the pitch and velocity information is of interest, in the last 22 or so second of flight, that aircraft suddenly pitched nose down 15 degrees, then in a few seconds went to 12 degrees up angle, ie a change of 27 degrees, then went as suddenly nose down 15 degrees, in the next 10 seconds nose down to 40 degrees then hit the water at over 550mph.

I would regard this is unusual (to say the least) that any sane  pilot would do something like that.

At this stage it would not be a real good idea to infer to much from this.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

The only 'good thing' that has come out regarding this event is that the aircraft was still on RADAR and the crash site quickly located unlike MH370 that 'disappeared' some 4 years ago.
Sadly there were no survivors even though the crash area was reached quickly.

I wonder in that time since MH370 and seeing this was a brand new aircraft, was it fitted with a constant transmitting transponder enabling its location to be observed at all times during the flight?

At the moment there has been no indication as to why the Aircraft Crashed but one of the 'Black Box' recorders has been located which we hope can tell what happened and perhaps help to prevent something similar happening again.
The aircraft was being tracked by radar, this means the aircrafts normal transponder was working, this also reports height and speed. The flight was also being tracked by ADS-B. which means this was also fitted to the aircraft, this is completely independent of the Transponder and gives the aircrafts, height speed, heading and vertical speed every minute. As the flights pitch and velocity is availible in much detail it appears it is VERY likely the aircraft was transmitting engineering data to a maintenance centre somewhere. The latter two fitting being recommendations from flight Mh370.

woodford
woodford
Study of the ADS-B data shows it was being transmitted at 7 to 10 second intervals.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

One might like to compare this with Qantas QF72, 3 hours and 8 minutes in to the flight of an Airbus A330 the flight control computers installed to more automate the system and improves flight safety went haywire throwing the aircraft around in the pitch axis. They landed safely at Learmouth inspite of the haywire computors but with many serious passenger injuries.

THe problem was traced to faulty software design , a faulty sensor and an unknown original trigger event that caused the computers enter the failmode.

Qantas crews are amongst the most highly trained crews in the world which is one of the reasons they landed safely, imagine a similiar situation but with MUCH less experienced crews.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/world/asia/indonesia-plane-crash-last-moments.html


Both the FAA and Boeing say the the aircraft involved in this crash, a Boeing 737MAX has a problem with its automatic stall projection system, something similiar to Qantas flight 72, I mentioned in my previous post only JT610 was only at 5000ft and the flight crew would not have had anything like enough time to workout what was going on and take corrective action. Lion Air's maintenence set up and pilot training is also being heavily questioned.

woodford
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Serious questions are being asked now that another Boeing 737-Max has crashed in what appears to be similar circumstances in Ethiopia today;
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/ethiopian-airlines-plane-crashes-with-deaths-and-casualties-unconfirmed/news-story/bed7d1e1a89f6fc015fa795817b914d3

I suspect we might see a grounding of all 400+ 737-Max planes any moment now...
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Particularly if a third one goes down...
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
So @bevans did you forget that you had started this thread when you started another on the same topic? https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11399422.htm

It's bad enough when 2 different people start threads on the same topic but when it is the same person starting both? C'mon!

BG
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Serious questions are being asked now that another Boeing 737-Max has crashed in what appears to be similar circumstances in Ethiopia today;
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/ethiopian-airlines-plane-crashes-with-deaths-and-casualties-unconfirmed/news-story/bed7d1e1a89f6fc015fa795817b914d3

I suspect we might see a grounding of all 400+ 737-Max planes any moment now...
Carnot
Its already started, China Govt grounded the entire countries fleet.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

Other countries that have followed China so far:
Indonesia
Singapore
South Korea
Mongolia

Airlines to have suspended operations without a formal grounding by their national government:
Ethiopian Airlines
ComAir (South Africa)
Cayman Airways
Gol (Brazil)
Aeromexico
Royal Air Maroc (Morocco)

All airlines in the USA operating the type are continuing operations.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

CASA has now grounded the 737 Max 8 in Australia.

There are no Australian flag carriers using the type yet, but there are multiple international carriers which fly here using them.

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