Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget

 

News article: Border Rail Action Group says order for new North East trains should be in next year's Victorian budget

VICTORIA’S Transport Minister Jacinta Allan and her Labor colleague Jaclyn Symes are continuing to insist they cannot order new trains for the North East line until design work is completed.

  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For the (n+1)th time, will someone please explain to me what is wrong with VLos? (Apart from the lack of catering, which is being sorted anyway.)
I don't know what is wrong with Vlos but I don't think they are suitable for long distance travel and were not built for that purpose. Reading the V/line web site or "Incidents/Disruptions" thread there seems to be no end of Velocity services cancelled or running with reduced capacity so perhaps there is something wrong with them.
My choice of travel from Mooroopna to SC is 1st class in an N set. Plenty of room for baggage and bikes in the conductors compartment, some of us have more than a handbag or briefcase when we set out on our journey. Comfortable seats facing the direction of travel and a café bar but alas no club car.
I believe long distance train travel is there to be enjoyed. I'm not interested in travelling at 200kph just to save a few minutes.
V/line and the Government are trying to treat long distance passengers as commuters which we are not.
Of course just a personal opinion, hope you don't mind.
The catering is being sorted? Is it? We'll see. An election shortly.
emmastreet

Nothing you do in Victoria is long distance and the vlo's are perfectly fine for the distances covered. Maybe something other then interurban seating is needed along with the buffet but the vlo's are perfectly fine for the distance that trains travel in Victoria.

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  emmastreet Chief Train Controller

Location: Goulburn Valley
"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line
"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".
emmastreet

Last time I checked, V'Locity's travel to Echuca every day and soon multiple times a day.

Moreover, last time I checked, Echuca is further away from Melbourne than Shepparton.

Your ACN carriage you like travelling in features, poor seating where the seat cushion leans forward making for an uncomfortable seating position...they have always been this way.

Your ACN has terrible, rough riding suspension compared to V'Locity's.

Your ACN toilets are simply third world standard and not disability accessible and try changing a baby's nappy in there Exclamation

V'Locity's will be perfectly fine for long distance routes and the seats/fittings are simply bolt on...that means they can and probably will be fitted out as necessary.

Mike.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".

Last time I checked, V'Locity's travel to Echuca every day and soon multiple times a day.

Moreover, last time I checked, Echuca is further away from Melbourne than Shepparton.

Your ACN carriage you like travelling in features, poor seating where the seat cushion leans forward making for an uncomfortable seating position...they have always been this way.

Your ACN has terrible, rough riding suspension compared to V'Locity's.

Your ACN toilets are simply third world standard and not disability accessible and try changing a baby's nappy in there Exclamation

V'Locity's will be perfectly fine for long distance routes and the seats/fittings are simply bolt on...that means they can and probably will be fitted out as necessary.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Ararat, the same, Mike, infact all 3 are within very similar distance, the trip to Ararat was hardly a bone jarring white knuckle ride, I always enjoyed the tour in both directions, wheather seated in the V'lo seat or the beastly wheelchair. I would have had no bones at all, if the trip was an hour longer.

BigShunter.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
james.au
83cm, according to this document from the manufacturers.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Woodford would like to make a point or two.........................

Both the government and VLine have treated NE Vic line residents EXTREMELY poorly it is no wonder a lot of us up Albury way are not very happy.

Below is the premiers announcement for the NE line VLocity's.........

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/work-starts-to-get-vlocity-trains-for-the-north-east-line/

It does NOT say anywhere they are going to order any SG rolling stock and any politicians promise of a a future action should be treated with extreme scepticism!
So until an announcement is made conforming an order the NE line is stuck with some of THE most uncomfortable 2nd class seating on the planet.

Seating comfort on any public transport is a matter of personal preference and is really outside the realm of suitablility of particular vehicle. Now it is possible to make seating the most will find comfortable, such seating though is very expensive, complex in construction, bulky and heavy.

There's currently really only one VLine rail destination that takes a long enough time (over 4 hours) to justify the serving of a meal and that at 4h 45m (Swan Hill), only just qualifies. a buffet service on any of the others is a luxury.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".
emmastreet

stop exaggerating. For most of your journey times in Victoria the interurban seating is more then fine. just might need a 1st class seat for the precious ones like yourself.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

As for albury residents. NSW trainlink provide 2 services each way a day to Melbourne. Stop complaining to the Victorian government and start catching the NSW trainlink service provided for you.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line

There's currently really only one VLine rail destination that takes a long enough time (over 4 hours) to justify the serving of a meal and that at 4h 45m (Swan Hill), only just qualifies. a buffet service on any of the others is a luxury.

woodford
woodford

Interesting that a 'meal', and definitely refreshments are served or can be purchased on a ONE hour flight to Sydney...

Moreover, as the long distance trains that operate in Victoria are ALL well over an hours duration, the provision of refreshments should be an expectation.

Mike.
  501M Train Controller

Location: The Borough
"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".

stop exaggerating. For most of your journey times in Victoria the interurban seating is more then fine. just might need a 1st class seat for the precious ones like yourself.
simstrain

The seats in the V/Locity are the same width as those in 1st class in the N Sets.  With a snack bar a V/Locity is more than adequate for the longer V/Line routes.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
"Perfectly fine". Just need "something other than interurban seating and a buffet". So a long way from "perfectly fine".

stop exaggerating. For most of your journey times in Victoria the interurban seating is more then fine. just might need a 1st class seat for the precious ones like yourself.
simstrain
Probably agree, simstrain, first time for everything and you've cracked a joke, well done..............Razz

BigShunter.
  justarider Chief Commissioner

Location: Released again, maybe for the last time??

Interesting that a 'meal', and definitely refreshments are served or can be purchased on a ONE hour flight to Sydney...

Moreover, as the long distance trains that operate in Victoria are ALL well over an hours duration, the provision of refreshments should be an expectation.

Mike.
The Vinelander
So you would not object to a drinks cart, just like the aeroplanes. For the 4 hr trip, a nice re-heated mystery meat & rice.
It would probably all fit in the spare drivers cab.

cheers
John
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Just to add another totally arbitrary benchmark to the discussion, for me 2 hours+ is about where I’d expect to be able to buy a cup of coffee on board.

Considering that routes longer than this are competing with passengers who would otherwise drive and more likely than not break their journey, it seems logical.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
83cm, according to this document from the manufacturers.
potatoinmymouth
Where abouts in that link PIMM?  I can't see it.

Also, anyone got XPT/XPL/END set (and whilst we are at it the WA long distance railcar pitch)?
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
83cm, according to this document from the manufacturers.
Where abouts in that link PIMM?  I can't see it.

Also, anyone got XPT/XPL/END set (and whilst we are at it the WA long distance railcar pitch)?
james.au
Little image in the bottom left corner under the heading VLocity Seats, you have to expand it to see the measurements.

AFAI am concerned the pitch is more than adequate on a Velo, the problem was the angle of the bloody things in the first batches. I believe they are gradually being retrofitted with the recent more upright design. The link that PIMM sent says 107 degrees I think, not sure if that is the old or the new.

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
BTW anyone who claims that an N Set gives a better ride than a Velo should try working on a laptop on both for a comparo. On a VLocity it is fine, the ride is smooth enough for me to type at my normal speed (and yes, I can touch type sort of) however on an N set as I am doing right now it is much more difficult with the computer bouncing around in my lap making typing much harder.

BG
  woodford Chief Commissioner

More comments from woodford......

Defence of the N sets,

No one on this thread is claiming the N sets have a better ride, two posts claim the N sets first class seating is more comfortable, see below. The original complaint was as of this moment NO new rolling stock has been ordered for the NE line. Because of the poor treatment of the NE lines patrons by the state government and VLine, I regard this situation (no new rolling stock ordered) as a VERY VERY serious situation.

Seat comfort,

Seats are comfortable only if they distribute the bodies weight over the greatest possible area.  A seat does NOT have to be soft to do this (Note 1), this is generally the modern approach. The old approach to comfortable seating is to make the seats squab (the part of the seat one actual sits on) with a lot of give in it, usually a lot of light springs with a weight distributing layer above them. When one sits on this type of seat, the seat base will conform to the shape of your rear end, greatly minumising any local pressure points.

The problem with the modern approach of having a back and a squab shaped to suit human beings is that both seat designers and the medical profession have not realised that human beings do NOT come in a standard size. For a given height, the back and legs can vary in length in no fixed ratio, ones bodies width can also vary widely to ones height.
As a consequence modern seating is only comfortable for a relatively small proportion of the population, hence the number of complaints of the VLocity's seating. Where as older style seating will conform to much more variable body shapes, so is comfortable for a great portion of the population.

Time saving....

The VLocities even at 130 kph will save plenty of time, on the ALbury line this will be in the order of 25 minutes. This amount of time is DEFINITELY none trivial and most rail patrons well welcome it greatly.


Note 1: Farm tractors of the 1960's and earlier always had pressed steel seats the shape of ones rear end when sitting down, these were the most comfortable seating one could find as long as they were a bit biggish in size. Two notable examples are the Massey Ferguson TEA seats, seats of the Mcormick and Deering AW6, and many others, One could drive these (and I have) for MANY hours with no discomfort whatever. Most people these days look on these seats in horror.

woodford
Note: its taken me 2 hours to write this post, one needs to constently check ones facts and ideas are correct and ones wording reflects this accurately.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
83cm, according to this document from the manufacturers.
Where abouts in that link PIMM?  I can't see it.

Also, anyone got XPT/XPL/END set (and whilst we are at it the WA long distance railcar pitch)?
Little image in the bottom left corner under the heading VLocity Seats, you have to expand it to see the measurements.

AFAI am concerned the pitch is more than adequate on a Velo, the problem was the angle of the bloody things in the first batches. I believe they are gradually being retrofitted with the recent more upright design. The link that PIMM sent says 107 degrees I think, not sure if that is the old or the new.

BG
BrentonGolding
Oh yeah, little isn't it?
Though is this the actual pitch or the design pitch?  Conceivably the pitch could be greater?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Can someone point me to what the seat pitch in a Vlocity is, also XPT and Endeavour/Explorer?  Google seems to be a little amis (ill update the wikipedia pages too with this info btw so if you can provide a link that would be great.
83cm, according to this document from the manufacturers.
Where abouts in that link PIMM?  I can't see it.

Also, anyone got XPT/XPL/END set (and whilst we are at it the WA long distance railcar pitch)?
Little image in the bottom left corner under the heading VLocity Seats, you have to expand it to see the measurements.

AFAI am concerned the pitch is more than adequate on a Velo, the problem was the angle of the bloody things in the first batches. I believe they are gradually being retrofitted with the recent more upright design. The link that PIMM sent says 107 degrees I think, not sure if that is the old or the new.

BG
Oh yeah, little isn't it?
Though is this the actual pitch or the design pitch?  Conceivably the pitch could be greater?
james.au
83cm seat pitch is quite reasonable for something one is only spending 4 hours or so in, as long as there is space under the seat in front. I am 185cm tall (6ft 1in) and my knee's would have around 8 to 10 cm clearance from the seat in front.

Remember in a train one has no difficulty getting out of ones seat and taking a short walk, a REAL GOOD IDEA if one is spending any length of time sitting down.

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If you get out of your seat on a non booked train then you might not get it back woodford which is more reason to book your seat on an xpt if you live on the NE line at a town the XPT stops at.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

For comparison, the Qantas A380 economy seats have 79cm of pitch. And people spend 14 hours in them.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

If you get out of your seat on a non booked train then you might not get it back woodford which is more reason to book your seat on an xpt if you live on the NE line at a town the XPT stops at.
simstrain
Under normal conditions on VLines long distance services the car furthest from Melbourne is the non booked seat car all the others have booked seats. The non booked seat car is for passengers from the smaller stations that are not staffed who need to buy a ticket from the conductor. I have yet to see any of these passengers looking for a seat that do not ask if a particualr seat is occupied.
I would though not leave my seat for a short period after a stop at one of the smaller stations (Avenal, Euroa, Violet Town, Springhurst and Chiltern.

Note 1: This is only a problem for services going to Melbourne, Its not an issue for Albury bound services, there's always seats availible after Seymour.

Note 2: The Albury train usually (but not always, there appears to be one 5 car set) 4 cars is normally booked out, even a couple of days before its date. So the non booked car is getting the over flow.

woodford
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton


There's currently really only one VLine rail destination that takes a long enough time (over 4 hours) to justify the serving of a meal and that at 4h 45m (Swan Hill), only just qualifies. a buffet service on any of the others is a luxury.

woodford
woodford
Politely disagree.

People who depart Griffith at 02:15 or 02:45am Saturdays to travel to Melb change onto N sets at Shepparton for another three hour journey. Upon departure from Shep nearly all the bus passengers make a beeline for the buffet. Hardly a luxury at 6:40am, I daresay.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat Line

Interesting that a 'meal', and definitely refreshments are served or can be purchased on a ONE hour flight to Sydney...

Moreover, as the long distance trains that operate in Victoria are ALL well over an hours duration, the provision of refreshments should be an expectation.

Mike.So you would not object to a drinks cart, just like the aeroplanes. For the 4 hr trip, a nice re-heated mystery meat & rice.
It would probably all fit in the spare drivers cab.

cheers
John
justarider

Have you travelled in an aeroplane and experienced how compact the meal service trolley is Question

M.

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