Stalin, Mao & Marx verses everyone else

  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
the Original point of my post Don was that though we should bash the PRC over its atrocities, it would be hypocritical for the west to do so if they don't clean up there act. What difference do the Camps in Turkestan have to ours on Christmas Island and Nauru? Apologies for making you wait
Dangersdan, it's all relative and you have to look to see what steps have been taken to either curtail the behaviour or try and make sure it doesn't happen again. The British in India is unrepeatable for various reasons. Sometimes the path to hell is paved with good intentions: Apartheid was supposedly terrible and repressive for the average black South African yet on nearly every measure they are worse off now under ANC rule than they were under Apartheid. Why don't we discuss the fact that our own hand in unseating the former white regime has actually made things worse there? I'm guessing because it's not racist anymore that we think our job was done...

Nairu is nothing, believe me.

Nothing compares to the genocides perpetrated by the Maoist regime in China and yet we're happy to do (lots) of business with them as though those concentration camps and human rights violations aren't happening. Yet we could protest, we could make noise. We could at the very least protest the routine detention and 're-education' of Muslims in China, a minority whose rights we seem very interested in defending in this country. Why the double standard?

Also, if China can't be honest with its own people about its past then it's doomed to fail and we're potentially being dragged into a moral sewer with it just for the sake of a buck. I say that we have to take the moral high ground at some stage and show that we stand for liberal democracy, particularly when the Chinese government thinks they can operate with impunity in this country to intimidate people of Chinese extraction who are now Australians. If we don't stand up for other Aussies then what DO we stand for?

I stay "stuff that". Call it out for what it is. Our largest trading partner is a repressive, undemocratic Communist government that obtained power illegitimately and will in the future kill as many millions as it takes to stay in power, just like they have in the past.
The link is Broken Can you Post the full thing about Zuid Africa?  
Like I said, their awful but We cannot Claim the moral high ground. We were happy to do business with Suharto and I doubt I relationship will change with china soon. Were already and have been for a while now in the 'moral sewer' that you describe. I agree with you on the Extradition and Democracy, we won't make noise we never will, were too scared of upsetting either the American and the Chinese.

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  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
The link is Broken Can you Post the full thing about Zuid Africa?  
Rather than do that just Google search (cut and paste if you wish) "Huffington Post UK Is South Africa really worse now than under apartheid?"

Here is the actual link again.

The problem that occurred in South Africa was that a white-dominated cabal was simply replaced by a new black elite from the ANC who have been robbing the place blind, especially since Mandela left office. On all sorts of measures the lives of the average black South African have gone backwards but particularly bad is the provision of basic services like health, sewerage and electricity. Earlier this year the South African electricity grid was close to collapse with regular 'load-shedding' events (NY Times), there's no way you can operate a business or have a 'normal' life when the power keeps going off every few days for prolonged periods of time. It's a symptom of how incapable the ANC are of delivering on their promise to improve the lives of ordinary South Africans because they're simply too corrupt.

You can add Saudi Arabia to the list of countries we really shouldn't be doing business with - the ongoing war against Yemen has killed many thousands and we're actually helping to supply the weapons that kill Yemeni civilians.

There might not be much we can do about these things other than simply be aware of what the truth of the situation is. And also tell other people who might not be aware.
  Gayspie Deputy Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, SA
"Workers of the world, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains".

Meanwhile i am a libertarian communist who supports Tito and his workers cooperatives. I disdain both state enterprises and private enterprises. I believe that both individual and collective rights are important. Labor and capital should be merging instead of warring.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
"Workers of the world, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains".

Meanwhile i am a libertarian communist who supports Tito and his workers cooperatives. I disdain both state enterprises and private enterprises. I believe that both individual and collective rights are important. Labor and capital should be merging instead of warring.
Heath Loxton
You'll probably be interested then in Cubas current Economic system. Its Pretty much just Titoism with small business allowed.
Do you support Syndicalist Style Operations? Or in your eyes is that too Bureaucratic?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
"Workers of the world, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains".
“Heath Loxton”
Okay Daenerys, whatever you say.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
"Workers of the world, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains".
Heath Loxton
And for many they had nothing to lose.

When the oppressed masses lash out against their oppressors it ain't pretty. There's a lot of people out for revenge. The French made good use of the guillotine. After the blood lust is satisfied there's a power vacuum and that isn't pretty either.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Doing very well, country's average income is $30/month? And this is only after the govt has been quietly removing its old Socialist ideology and relatives in Florida sending home hard currency. If they had been a democracy their average incomes would likely be at least 100 to 1000 times higher and their infrastructure wouldn't be in a decrepit state.
The life expectancy is on the back bone of two things. Well for a start is barely 1 year long. But during its times being funded by the USSR, they built up a half decent medical system for which medical tourism was a major source of income. Once the USSR collapsed and Cuba had to survive on its own, the medical system collapsed and the Dr's left. The lack of income means they have a half decent diet. Their economic model is hardly a model, its a basket case. Have you been there? The USSR went broke, nuff said.
Oh yes, my dad once went to an industrial city in Russia where the air was unsafe to breath and their equipment needed special protection from corrosion from the air. That was in the 90's. Yugo fell apart broke.
The countries of Croatia, Slovenia and I think MAcadaona have embraced capitalism building decent infrastructure and jobs that are no longer one step above that of a Serf. Serbia was sidelined until recently for political reasons. Sorry, living standards have improved dramatically in the former Eastern Bloc. There is some aspects of draconian rule that is always helpful but those countries are lagging the improvements in the west.
Smoking and alcoholism is still higher than western countries as is occupational deaths and disease and of course this will take at least another 25-40 years to filter out of the stats. In 1990, a common way of travel in many parts of Eastern Europe was with something with four feet, or aging buses and trains on windy roads. Times have changed, alot and I've been through many Eastern European countries. Yeah, unemployment is so bad in places like Poland the govt is now offering its youth tax free incomes to stay.
Most of the former Eastern Bloc all suffer from the same issue, their young people know salaries are higher in the west and leave so these countries are suffering massive population decline. Ask the UK about that one. Overall your comment that the standard of living in the Eastern Bloc countries is worse now than during the USSR era is very wrong. Most of Africa can hardly be relied on for data from either direction. Edit, sorry I didn't see the redirection until now.

Reply in a variety of orders.
Money isn't Everything My friend, when you have heavily Subsidised Living and an inherently lower cost of living. There Doing Very Well for the Position they're in Since the USSR went Broke. It Pretty Funny now to think that Batista's Daughter is now Homeless. Myths Perpetuated by the Americans Are Very Easy to believe.
They Have a higher standard of living than most of Central America and the Caribbean Who in your books applying that logic would be much nicer place to live than they are now. The Exact same can be said with these people Migrating North to the United States and Canada For better Economic Prospects, Less people would be fleeing for economic reasons if they still had the massive social net of the marxist states. Cuba's Economy has essentially become a carbon copy of Yugoslavia's in recent Years, Contrary to popular belief Marxism does not oppose Small Business.
The USSR Embraced Market Capitalism in attempts to get rid of its stagnation, it hastened there fall as it was done after the 'Openness policy' as It gave people something to complain about as the government was failing to meet people need as they did prior.
I'll give you Credit were credit is Due your correct that things in Slovenia, Croatia and Czeck Republic (yeh Spelling I know) have improved, however this has not been the case for most places with Life Expectancy declining, Poverty and homelessness increasing in most of the Former USSR and Eastern Europe. Things in Belarus Have remained pretty much stuck as it was economically how the economy functions and how the people live (Yes, I know he's a dictator).

I know Very Well Yugo Fell apart due to Ethnic unrest after Titos Death, Its was bound to happen unless there was someone with an iron fist to keep it all together.

Your Very correct on that Smoking and Boozing levels are high there.
Again Thats a Myth my friend Living standards Have Dropped, The Hards Statistics Prove that wrong again and again. Homelessness and poverty have skyrocketed? Better? The Eastern Block Defiantly was Stagnating by the 80's But things have not improved. You are Very Wrong and it doesn't take into account the Nostalgia Factor too. Stop perpetuating myths. People are still fleeing to the west for a better life, things clearly haven't gotten worse. I'll PM you the sources

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