VLocity train order off track as fleet built too heavy

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 25 Feb 2019 08:40
  NimbleJack Station Master

Yes, we are supposed to get 5 car Vlocity sets with buffet cars for the long hauls. Warrnambool, Ararat, Maryborough (and places North), Echuca, Shepparton, Bairnsdale.
Dream on.

The only buffet-equipped sets will be for the standard gauge line to Albury. Expect to see them being tested late next year.

Hi and Welcome Aboard

Buffet cars are provided on the current longer distance V/Line services, are we saying this will not be the case for the proposed Vlocity sets for the SG longer distance services?

Albury Services we have to wait another 2 years for the rolling stock?
Buffet modules are expensive to instal and haemorrhage money in service. They will be appearing on the standard gauge line (six units at this stage) for political reasons, not because they make economic sense. At best, new-build broad gauge VLocity sets will get a few vending machines.

No one is dying of hunger on the Bairnsdale service. It turns out that passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee.

Hi and again welcome aboard Nimble Jack.

I'm not certain where you get your information from, however suffice to say though the Albury line may be the first to get the new Inter-city V'Locity's, it's a given that they will retain the refresh service in a similar way to todays N cars.

I'm not certain that the new trains will have entirely vending machines either due to a number of factors...potential vandalism being one.
The new trains aren't being designed as 5 car units for nothing and it's a fair bet there will be more than enough room for a proper buffet module, or at the very least a trolley service or a possibly a combination of the two.

Moreover it's easy to say...'passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee', yet even on a 1 hour Sydney flight and particularly on a 4 hour Melbourne - Cairns flight people often partake of a proper meal service...so in your opinion what makes a 4 hour flight any different to a 4 hour train journey Question

Furthermore...if the government was looking at making economic sense...we would be back in the bad old days of the economic rationalists and we would replace all the Albury and other long-distance services with buses to enable the best return for the PT $ and we all know that's not going to happen.

Mike.
The Vinelander
The costs associated with developing, installing and running a buffet module are an order of magnitude greater than the revenue provided by that module. Then, of course, you have the opportunity cost of losing half a car's worth of seats.

Taxpayers generally don't mind subsidising public transport. They do mind - and rightfully so - having their pockets picked whenever a train patron decides to swill a two-dollar cup of coffee that has cost $20 to produce. We no longer have on-board alcohol sales to cushion the blow.

Albury will get their precious buffet modules. Everyone else will have to make do with that rarest of commodities, foresight. There may be vending machines, and just possibly trolley service, but that's as good as it will get.

Airlines, for their part, are happy to lavish patrons with three-course meals, fancy chocolates and fizzy champagne, as they make a handsome profit from doing so. Until V/Line patrons start clamouring for $30 meat pies, that will never happen with the railways.

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  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Why would Victoria want to be any different to the rest of the world?

What is wrong with getting a breakfast or a lunch from a rail service provider?  

This is already available even in 3rd world countries.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

The Herald Sun article seems to be refering to the extra beefed-up current VLocitys ordered in the 2017 Budget, ie 13  x 3-car sets (39 carriages), not the long-distance version.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

$20 Coffee!!!!  They may as well just have a DIY Nescafe coffee vending machine and leave it at that.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Hi and again welcome aboard Nimble Jack.

I'm not certain where you get your information from, however suffice to say though the Albury line may be the first to get the new Inter-city V'Locity's, it's a given that they will retain the refresh service in a similar way to todays N cars.

I'm not certain that the new trains will have entirely vending machines either due to a number of factors...potential vandalism being one.
The new trains aren't being designed as 5 car units for nothing and it's a fair bet there will be more than enough room for a proper buffet module, or at the very least a trolley service or a possibly a combination of the two.

Moreover it's easy to say...'passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee', yet even on a 1 hour Sydney flight and particularly on a 4 hour Melbourne - Cairns flight people often partake of a proper meal service...so in your opinion what makes a 4 hour flight any different to a 4 hour train journey Question

Furthermore...if the government was looking at making economic sense...we would be back in the bad old days of the economic rationalists and we would replace all the Albury and other long-distance services with buses to enable the best return for the PT $ and we all know that's not going to happen.

Mike.
The costs associated with developing, installing and running a buffet module are an order of magnitude greater than the revenue provided by that module. Then, of course, you have the opportunity cost of losing half a car's worth of seats.

Taxpayers generally don't mind subsidising public transport. They do mind - and rightfully so - having their pockets picked whenever a train patron decides to swill a two-dollar cup of coffee that has cost $20 to produce. We no longer have on-board alcohol sales to cushion the blow.

Albury will get their precious buffet modules. Everyone else will have to make do with that rarest of commodities, foresight. There may be vending machines, and just possibly trolley service, but that's as good as it will get.

Airlines, for their part, are happy to lavish patrons with three-course meals, fancy chocolates and fizzy champagne, as they make a handsome profit from doing so. Until V/Line patrons start clamouring for $30 meat pies, that will never happen with the railways.
NimbleJack
Traveled on shorter regional trains in Sweeden that make a 3 car V/Locity set look big. 4 vending machines in the bordering section with cold drinks, hot drinks, cold food and I think hot food where bikes are stored, the technology works, its about time we acknowledged this.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Keeping V/Los within a specified weight is important for performance and maintenance reasons though.  So not entirely a Herald Sun beat-up to be fair.
Carnot
Yes, there would be a design spec for a reason not just for the sake of it. If the spec is not met either the build is wrong or the design is wrong.

Then a decision needs to be made how to fix and then blame (and costs) apportioned according to the contract and design sign off.

Of course if it is anything like many gov contracts it will be so full of get out clauses that we the humble taxpayer will be sure to foot the bill. Maryborough > Ararat rebuild anyone?

BG
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Keeping V/Los within a specified weight is important for performance and maintenance reasons though.  So not entirely a Herald Sun beat-up to be fair.
Yes, there would be a design spec for a reason not just for the sake of it. If the spec is not met either the build is wrong or the design is wrong.

Then a decision needs to be made how to fix and then blame (and costs) apportioned according to the contract and design sign off.

Of course if it is anything like many gov contracts it will be so full of get out clauses that we the humble taxpayer will be sure to foot the bill. Maryborough > Ararat rebuild anyone?

BG
BrentonGolding
Bombardier are footing the bill apparently.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Yes, we are supposed to get 5 car Vlocity sets with buffet cars for the long hauls. Warrnambool, Ararat, Maryborough (and places North), Echuca, Shepparton, Bairnsdale.
Dream on.

The only buffet-equipped sets will be for the standard gauge line to Albury. Expect to see them being tested late next year.

Hi and Welcome Aboard

Buffet cars are provided on the current longer distance V/Line services, are we saying this will not be the case for the proposed Vlocity sets for the SG longer distance services?

Albury Services we have to wait another 2 years for the rolling stock?
Buffet modules are expensive to instal and haemorrhage money in service. They will be appearing on the standard gauge line (six units at this stage) for political reasons, not because they make economic sense. At best, new-build broad gauge VLocity sets will get a few vending machines.

No one is dying of hunger on the Bairnsdale service. It turns out that passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee.

Hi and again welcome aboard Nimble Jack.

I'm not certain where you get your information from, however suffice to say though the Albury line may be the first to get the new Inter-city V'Locity's, it's a given that they will retain the refresh service in a similar way to todays N cars.

I'm not certain that the new trains will have entirely vending machines either due to a number of factors...potential vandalism being one.
The new trains aren't being designed as 5 car units for nothing and it's a fair bet there will be more than enough room for a proper buffet module, or at the very least a trolley service or a possibly a combination of the two.

Moreover it's easy to say...'passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee', yet even on a 1 hour Sydney flight and particularly on a 4 hour Melbourne - Cairns flight people often partake of a proper meal service...so in your opinion what makes a 4 hour flight any different to a 4 hour train journey Question

Furthermore...if the government was looking at making economic sense...we would be back in the bad old days of the economic rationalists and we would replace all the Albury and other long-distance services with buses to enable the best return for the PT $ and we all know that's not going to happen.

Mike.
The costs associated with developing, installing and running a buffet module are an order of magnitude greater than the revenue provided by that module. Then, of course, you have the opportunity cost of losing half a car's worth of seats.

Taxpayers generally don't mind subsidising public transport. They do mind - and rightfully so - having their pockets picked whenever a train patron decides to swill a two-dollar cup of coffee that has cost $20 to produce. We no longer have on-board alcohol sales to cushion the blow.

Albury will get their precious buffet modules. Everyone else will have to make do with that rarest of commodities, foresight. There may be vending machines, and just possibly trolley service, but that's as good as it will get.

Airlines, for their part, are happy to lavish patrons with three-course meals, fancy chocolates and fizzy champagne, as they make a handsome profit from doing so. Until V/Line patrons start clamouring for $30 meat pies, that will never happen with the railways.
NimbleJack

Perhaps you need to get out and experience the long distance V/Line network Nimble Jack. Your prophecies are unlikely to come to fruition.

Mike.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Keeping V/Los within a specified weight is important for performance and maintenance reasons though.  So not entirely a Herald Sun beat-up to be fair.
Yes, there would be a design spec for a reason not just for the sake of it. If the spec is not met either the build is wrong or the design is wrong.

Then a decision needs to be made how to fix and then blame (and costs) apportioned according to the contract and design sign off.

Of course if it is anything like many gov contracts it will be so full of get out clauses that we the humble taxpayer will be sure to foot the bill. Maryborough > Ararat rebuild anyone?

BG
Bombardier are footing the bill apparently.
Carnot
Yes so you would have to assume that the build is wrong. If the design was wrong and the gov signed off on it then I am not sure Bombardier would be paying for the work all by themselves!

BG
  NimbleJack Station Master

Why would Victoria want to be any different to the rest of the world?

What is wrong with getting a breakfast or a lunch from a rail service provider?  

This is already available even in 3rd world countries.
x31
I'm not arguing whether or not we should have staffed catering facilities on broad gauge VLocitys. I'm explaining why we won't be getting them.

No business model can make V/Line buffet modules come within a stale sausage roll's throw of breaking even, let alone turn a profit. It's taxpayers' cash straight down the drain. We have far more important things to spend our limited resources on than ensuring a reliable supply of warm scones all the way to Shepparton.
  Bethungra Train Controller

It is not just about the money but about making rail competitive with all that is required. Making someone take the train over driving is more than just speed and timetable, it also includes services onboard including internet and catering etc.,
  ADB Locomotive Fireman

It is not just about the money but about making rail competitive with all that is required. Making someone take the train over driving is more than just speed and timetable, it also includes services onboard including internet and catering etc.,
Bethungra

But does the catering (or lack of) make much of a difference? Would be interesting to see if - over time - the lack of catering on the Bairnsdale V/Ls sees a decline in patronage, or a stagnation in passenger growth (in numbers I mean, not girth).

The catering for me is part of the "passenger experience". I have a friend in Mt Gambier and used to take the train to Warnambool, and part of the trip was getting one of those microwaved-in-plastic chicken rolls, while trying not to spill scalding coffee in your lap. But not every member of the public is a gunzelling tragic.

I went to Shepparton recently (while the Ns are still around), and I have to say the "Buffet" selection was neither expansive nor that appetising (no more of those chicken roles, alas!). NJs reference to stale sausage rolls is pretty accurate. Would John Q Public be that concerned about missing out on preservative-laden sausage rolls, or sangars he could make more cheaply at home?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Why would Victoria want to be any different to the rest of the world?

What is wrong with getting a breakfast or a lunch from a rail service provider?  

This is already available even in 3rd world countries.
I'm not arguing whether or not we should have staffed catering facilities on broad gauge VLocitys. I'm explaining why we won't be getting them.

No business model can make V/Line buffet modules come within a stale sausage roll's throw of breaking even, let alone turn a profit. It's taxpayers' cash straight down the drain. We have far more important things to spend our limited resources on than ensuring a reliable supply of warm scones all the way to Shepparton.
NimbleJack

Nimble Jack...perhaps you are ZH in another guise, (look it up), however unless you know something the rest of us...including the Andrews Labor government isn't even aware of...your economic rationalism will not stop refreshments being incorporated on future long distance V/Line passenger trains...end of Exclamation

By long distance I don't mean Shepparton. I'm referring to Warrnambool, Bairnsdale, Albury and Swan Hill.

Forget business models...this is about attracting and continuing to grow patronage and ongoing ridership.

Refreshment provision is a cost that's borne by all providers of long distance rail services all around the world and Victoria is no different. The only difference in Victoria, The Overland and XPT notwithstanding is we stupidly don't provide an alcohol service to encourage greater food sales.

Mike.
  justarider Assistant Commissioner

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
Stale sausage roll ?

I can only attest to the 1:05 down to Warrnambool.

The wraps and muffins were fresh that day. The cappuccino made by someone who knew how to do properly. The coke was icy cold.

What more do you expect from a 7/11 menu ? It's not fine dining but adequate.
https://www.vline.com.au/Fares-general-info/On-board ( see Cafe Bar menu)

cheers
John
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
But does the catering (or lack of) make much of a difference? Would be interesting to see if - over time - the lack of catering on the Bairnsdale V/Ls sees a decline in patronage, or a stagnation in passenger growth (in numbers I mean, not girth).

The catering for me is part of the "passenger experience". I have a friend in Mt Gambier and used to take the train to Warnambool, and part of the trip was getting one of those microwaved-in-plastic chicken rolls, while trying not to spill scalding coffee in your lap. But not every member of the public is a gunzelling tragic.

I went to Shepparton recently (while the Ns are still around), and I have to say the "Buffet" selection was neither expansive nor that appetising (no more of those chicken roles, alas!). NJs reference to stale sausage rolls is pretty accurate. Would John Q Public be that concerned about missing out on preservative-laden chicken rolls, or sangars he could make more cheaply at home?
ADB
I certainly think it makes a difference, all the 2 pointers you can gain the better. In this day and age, the more gadgets and gizzmos the better, they all make a difference.

BG works at the Maine, if he can plug his phone in, charge and run his laptop and do an hour or so of work on the way, both ways,  excellent ( even if it is trawling YouTube watching Greensleeves videos ).

I have traveled on the Overland a number of times from Melbourne to Horseham as well as to Adelaide and a decent cuppa and toasted sambo, cruising towards Geelong, wasn't going to break the bank and mind you, plenty of cheese and ham in the sambo, tasted bloody good.

Yes prices might be a little on the up side, but hell, if it's such a problem bring your own. Like people who whinge at the price of a pie, bucket of chips and pint at the footy, nobody is forcing you to purchase it, I'm off to the V8's on Friday and yeah, a round of sambo's or tin of half warm grog, is a bit up there, but I don't care, I don't have to purchase, but happy to be able too.

There's my $100 bucks worth.

BigShunter.
  ADB Locomotive Fireman

But does the catering (or lack of) make much of a difference? Would be interesting to see if - over time - the lack of catering on the Bairnsdale V/Ls sees a decline in patronage, or a stagnation in passenger growth (in numbers I mean, not girth).

The catering for me is part of the "passenger experience". I have a friend in Mt Gambier and used to take the train to Warnambool, and part of the trip was getting one of those microwaved-in-plastic chicken rolls, while trying not to spill scalding coffee in your lap. But not every member of the public is a gunzelling tragic.

I went to Shepparton recently (while the Ns are still around), and I have to say the "Buffet" selection was neither expansive nor that appetising (no more of those chicken roles, alas!). NJs reference to stale sausage rolls is pretty accurate. Would John Q Public be that concerned about missing out on preservative-laden chicken rolls, or sangars he could make more cheaply at home?
I certainly think it makes a difference, all the 2 pointers you can gain the better. In this day and age, the more gadgets and gizzmos the better, they all make a difference.

BG works at the Maine, if he can plug his phone in, charge and run his laptop and do an hour or so of work on the way, both ways,  excellent ( even if it is trawling YouTube watching Greensleeves videos ).

I have traveled on the Overland a number of times from Melbourne to Horseham as well as to Adelaide and a decent cuppa and toasted sambo, cruising towards Geelong, wasn't going to break the bank and mind you, plenty of cheese and ham in the sambo, tasted bloody good.

Yes prices might be a little on the up side, but hell, if it's such a problem bring your own. Like people who whinge at the price of a pie, bucket of chip and pint at the footy, nobody is forcing you to purchase it, I'm off to the V8's on Friday and yeah, a round of sambo's or tin of half warm grog, is a bit up there, but I don't care, I don't have to purchase, but happy to be able too.

There's my $100 bucks worth.

BigShunter.
BigShunter

Certainly not questioning wi-fi and all that - many pax today would regard that as essential. Re the catering, you and I might like a snack (and those chicken rolls on the Warnambool train were truly great - I shudder to think of the chemicals in 'em, but they were great), but it would be interesting to use Bairnsdale as a test case to see if the general public feel the same.
  Rossco T Chief Train Controller

Location: Camberwell, Victoria

The catering for me is part of the "passenger experience". I have a friend in Mt Gambier and used to take the train to Warnambool, and part of the trip was getting one of those microwaved-in-plastic chicken rolls, while trying not to spill scalding coffee in your lap. But not every member of the public is a gunzelling tragic.

I went to Shepparton recently (while the Ns are still around), and I have to say the "Buffet" selection was neither expansive nor that appetising (no more of those chicken roles, alas!).
ADB
Just checked out the cafe/bar menu section on the V/Line website.

Looks like those 'Roast Chicken Rolls' are still available for $6.50.  Hopefully you don't miss out on your next Warrnambool trip!

Ross
  574M White Guru

Location: Shepparton
Yes, we are supposed to get 5 car Vlocity sets with buffet
Dream on.
Buffet modules are expensive to install and haemorrhage money in service. They will be appearing on the standard gauge line (six units at this stage) for political reasons, not because they make economic sense. At best, new-build broad gauge VLocity sets will get a few vending machines.

No one is dying of hunger on the Bairnsdale service. It turns out that passengers can survive just fine going four hours without a stale sausage roll or a cup of rancid coffee.
NimbleJack

I've never had rancid coffee.

rancid ~ adj    rare

1. (used of decomposing oils or fats) having a rank smell or taste usually due to a chemical change or decomposition

rancid butter; rancid bacon

2. smelling of fermentation or staleness

Not sure where that goes ... drinks are not usually rancid.

The original article made reference to a lady, former head of PTV's rolling stock division, now working at Bombardier.
Why would the reporter need to refer to this?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

The original article made reference to a lady, former head of PTV's rolling stock division, now working at Bombardier. Why would the reporter need to refer to this?
574M

BECAUSE MUH CORRUPTION

Or, more likely, there ain’t that many jobs going round in Victoria for rollingstock experts. Bombardier needed someone, and they offered her more than PTV were paying, so off she went.

All above board most likely, but the long-term issue is one of “regulatory capture” where the private builders know what the government wants and end up dictating their own terms rather than the other way around.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
I certainly think it makes a difference, all the 2 pointers you can gain the better. In this day and age, the more gadgets and gizzmos the better, they all make a difference.

BG works at the Maine, if he can plug his phone in, charge and run his laptop and do an hour or so of work on the way, both ways,  excellent ( even if it is trawling YouTube watching Greensleeves videos ).

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Too funny. I just got told off by the efficacious young connie for having my laptop plugged in to the power point and the cord running across the aisle. I have been doing this for 5 years and never been mentioned before and I always move it before stations or if anyone comes down the aisle.

And yes, it is more often than not entertaining stuff from blokes like you here on RP distracting me while i am supposed to be working on other stuff, be it proper work or VGR booking system stuff.

BG
  Richard stroker Locomotive Driver

I remember as a youngster looking forward to having the buffet car open on a train trip from Kyneton to Bendigo ( back when the train departed from platform 2 at Kyneton for Bendigo , it wasn't that hard to figure out 20 odd years ago , I don't know why it is now ).
The buffet car was part of the train traveling experience and a treat as a youngster.

Keep the buffet car going, I say , it's what can make a traveling experience better and attract patronage.

The stroker
  ADB Locomotive Fireman


Looks like those 'Roast Chicken Rolls' are still available for $6.50.  Hopefully you don't miss out on your next Warrnambool trip!

Ross
Rossco T

Cheers, Rossco! I hastened to the buffet on my recent trip to Shep, only to be told they didn't have any chicken rolls left. After reeling in dismay and clutching the edge of the counter for support, I more closely scrutinised the piccie of said missing chicken roll on the wall, and thought "Hmmm, they don't look like the chicken rolls I used to get".

I'll report back after my next trip to Warnambool as to whether today's V/line chicken rolls are anything like the originals!
  DalyWaters Chief Commissioner

Not a bad effort at going off topic.  As was mentioned, there is another thread to discuss the proposed long distance trains, including buffets.

However, this news item should be referring to the new velocity sets 76, 77, and 78 which have been languishing in the storage yard for about six months now.

Some bright spark decided the last five or so velocities of the current order should be different from the rest of the fleet.  They got all the seating changed, the luggage areas removed and one of the two toilets removed.  All for about six extra seats per car!

The operational nightmare begins with these cars destined to be restricted in their use.  Supposedly, they are meant to be used just for Geelong, Wyndham Vale and Bacchus Marsh runs, to replace the H sets.  Just what V/Line does not need right now, velocities that have to be allocated in restricted areas and at restricted times!

Supposedly, they are to be used only at peak times due to no luggage and bicycle capacity.

Under O. H. & S. rules, any train that only has one toliet working must be pumped out each time it visits Southern Cross station.  The Sucker truck cannot get to platforms 15 or 16 so these velocities will be further restricted in their use.

From what I am led to believe, the units were weighed and found to be well overweight.  There has supposedly now been a further restriction of a 145 kmh top speed placed on them due to the overweight.  It is suggested due to the speed restriction that they may end up being used exclusively on the Seymour line.

Have they weighed the older velocities?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE

Looks like those 'Roast Chicken Rolls' are still available for $6.50.  Hopefully you don't miss out on your next Warrnambool trip!

Ross
Cheers, Rossco! I hastened to the buffet on my recent trip to Shep, only to be told they didn't have any chicken rolls left. After reeling in dismay and clutching the edge of the counter for support, I more closely scrutinised the piccie of said missing chicken roll on the wall, and thought "Hmmm, they don't look like the chicken rolls I used to get".

I'll report back after my next trip to Warnambool as to whether today's V/line chicken rolls are anything like the originals!
ADB
Chicken Food quality report hint, always wait 48h after consumption before writing the report, just to make sure your taste buds and intestines are on the same wave length to the quality of the food. I learnt this in India!
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Not a bad effort at going off topic.  As was mentioned, there is another thread to discuss the proposed long distance trains, including buffets.

However, this news item should be referring to the new velocity sets 76, 77, and 78 which have been languishing in the storage yard for about six months now.

Some bright spark decided the last five or so velocities of the current order should be different from the rest of the fleet.  They got all the seating changed, the luggage areas removed and one of the two toilets removed.  All for about six extra seats per car!

The operational nightmare begins with these cars destined to be restricted in their use.  Supposedly, they are meant to be used just for Geelong, Wyndham Vale and Bacchus Marsh runs, to replace the H sets.  Just what V/Line does not need right now, velocities that have to be allocated in restricted areas and at restricted times!

Supposedly, they are to be used only at peak times due to no luggage and bicycle capacity.

Under O. H. & S. rules, any train that only has one toliet working must be pumped out each time it visits Southern Cross station.  The Sucker truck cannot get to platforms 15 or 16 so these velocities will be further restricted in their use.

From what I am led to believe, the units were weighed and found to be well overweight.  There has supposedly now been a further restriction of a 145 kmh top speed placed on them due to the overweight.  It is suggested due to the speed restriction that they may end up being used exclusively on the Seymour line.

Have they weighed the older velocities?
DalyWaters
Two things will happen

1) Guess which sets are first to be canabilised in later life.

2) They are modified back to same standard during the mid life refit.

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